Originally posted by Janus Marius
One thing he hasn't taken into effect is how Vader and Obi-Wan are going to mesh together. Even at the height of their teamwork, they were knocked all over the place.But otherwise, a very well done post.
Assuming Vader and Ben were indeed on the same side again, there is no reason to think they would of somehow forgot all the teamwork strategys and tactics they used to know.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Assuming Vader and Ben were indeed on the same side again, there is no reason to think they would of somehow forgot all the teamwork strategys and tactics they used to know.
I'd be like.
Obi: We must work together my old apprentice.
Vader: STFU old man I still hate you. First we kill Dooku than I waste you.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Assuming Vader and Ben were indeed on the same side again, there is no reason to think they would of somehow forgot all the teamwork strategys and tactics they used to know.
Yeah, because twenty years later (And when one has become a full fledged sith, using a different version of an earlier fighting style and the other has become an old man) they just mesh together like nothing ever happened.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
One thing he hasn't taken into effect is how Vader and Obi-Wan are going to mesh together. Even at the height of their teamwork, they were knocked all over the place.But otherwise, a very well done post.
Just to add my thoughts on teamwork:
Yes. They were knocked all over the place but that happened because of Dooku's superior force mastery. I really don't see him force choking ANH Kenobi and trying to kick OT Vader away would probably give him a broken leg.
They would still know how to work together (unless they have forgotten more then a decade of fighting together) and Vader (in terms of calmness and fighting strategy) is closer to Obi-Wan then ROTS Anakin was. Also Vaders introduction of other forms (II, III and IV) into his swordplay might be able to give Dooku some additional surprise. Vader partitionally studied Dooku's own form and Kenobi's form which might possible lead to better handling of a form II user and better teamwork with a form III user.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yeah, because twenty years later (And when one has become a full fledged sith, using a different version of an earlier fighting style and the other has become an old man) they just mesh together like nothing ever happened.
Pretty much.
20 years of being apart is almost irrelevent to them, they still know eachother like the back of their own hand... they still share the memories of all the training and experiences they had together. In addition we are talking about jedi here, its silly to think they get 'rusty' in the human sense we know...for example, Yoda was engaged in relatively little *real* combat throughout his 900 year life, he may have just sat in his council chambers for a good deal of it... yet when Dooku challenged him in AOTC he still fought masterfully.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Pretty much.20 years of being apart is almost irrelevent to them, they still know eachother like the back of their own hand... they still share the memories of all the training and experiences they had together. In addition we are talking about jedi here, its silly to think they get 'rusty' in the human sense we know...for example, Yoda was engaged in relatively little *real* combat throughout his 900 year life, he may have just sat in his council chambers for a good deal of it... yet when Dooku challenged him in AOTC he still fought masterfully.
Yoda is an entirely different species of character. You have no idea how his character functions, how his mind works, or how his memories operate.
We know for a fact that Vader and Obi-Wan as of ANH are not as FAST as they were as of ROTS. Dooku in ROTS was faster than them. So you're banking on their profound new mastery of the force to give them the game.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And if you read the "Jedi Prince" novels apparently Obi-Wan managed to enter the spice mines on Kessel in 7 BBY, kidnap Ken (Palpatine's grand child) and move him to the Lost City of the Jedi on Yavin 4. If Kenobi gained knowledge about the Lost City which was abandoned even before Sadow's time and just a legend even among the Jedi Order and managed to move into one of the Empire's protected industrial facilities and "steal" a child basically unnoticed I'm quite sure he gained some huge knowledge during his Exile.
Dude. Those books are not canon.
Oh yeah, Palpatine had sex with an alien and created a three-eyed crazy sumbitch son called Triclops in those books, too. IT IS IN TEH KIDS BOOKS, IT MUST BE CANON!!!111ELEVEN
There is no "Lost City of the Jedi" on Yavin IV and Ken does not exist either.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Yoda is an entirely different species of character. You have no idea how his character functions, how his mind works, or how his memories operate.We know for a fact that Vader and Obi-Wan as of ANH are not as FAST as they were as of ROTS. Dooku in ROTS was faster than them. So you're banking on their profound new mastery of the force to give them the game.
1. Perhaps your right, however Yoda was just one example. Palpatine, as far as we know, had NO real practice whatsoever during his time as senator...did he appear slow when he killed those 3 jedi masters in roughly 2 seconds?
2. Its a fact? Really? Provide some written proof that they were slower. Going by the movies is false interpretation, it was entirely due to 70s moviemaking...Lucas never envisioned his characters to fight like they were wielding baseball bats, it was simply a necessity of the time period.
2. Its a fact? Really? Provide some written proof that they were slower. Going by the movies is false interpretation, it was entirely due to 70s moviemaking...Lucas never envisioned his characters to fight like they were wielding baseball bats, it was simply a necessity of the time period.
Chris Cerasi stated,
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.
"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.
"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1. Perhaps your right, however Yoda was just one example. Palpatine, as far as we know, had NO real practice whatsoever during his time as senator...did he appear slow when he killed those 3 jedi masters in roughly 2 seconds?2. Its a fact? Really? Provide some written proof that they were slower. Going by the movies is false interpretation, it was entirely due to 70s moviemaking...Lucas never envisioned his characters to fight like they were wielding baseball bats, it was simply a necessity of the time period.
Yes, it is fact that Vader in the suit was slower, this was mentioned as much by very credible sources (possibly Lucas himself, though I'd have to hunt for it).
The ANH novelization (probably the most accurate novelization) states the Obi-Wan's age was showing, he would not be able to keep up with his former self.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Chris Cerasi stated,"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars,[b] you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films
. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.
"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.
"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'" [/B]
Yes, you turn to the movies for the facts....for instance Luke traveled to Dagobah during ESB.
The skill by which the characters fought however, is entirely opinion. One guy might of thought that the OT characters fought well, while another might of thought they fought like kids wielding baseball bats. What my point was, the interpretation of how the OT characters fought is further messed up by the undeniable limitations of 70s movie-making.
OT Vader and Ben fighting slower than their PT counter-parts is NOT a fact.
If you can offer a quote from Lucas saying that OT Vader and Ben are slower, then it is no longer up to interpretation and becomes a fact.
Originally posted by IKC
Dude. Those books are not canon.
Dude. Those books are C-canon unless LFL says something different and apparently you aren't LFL.
Oh yeah, Palpatine had sex with an alien and created a three-eyed crazy sumbitch son called Triclops in those books, too. IT IS IN TEH KIDS BOOKS, IT MUST BE CANON!!!111ELEVEN
You'd better read them. Triclops is the supposed son of Palpatine meaning there is no proof for that claim. And a lack of popularity combined with bad writing doesn't make them less canon.
There is no "Lost City of the Jedi" on Yavin IV and Ken does not exist either.
At least Ken and Kadann appear in the Essential Guide to Characters either, in Kadann's case the same is true for the DS sourcebook and the Dark Forces saga. And something makes me think your personal opinion isn't able to overwrite source material authorized by LFL. I might be wrong there...but I don't think so.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
GV, someone DID offer up that quote just this past week.
And actually the quote says that the "lightsaber fights" of the PT era are faster than those in the OT and not the "fighters" as it was "quoted". Lucas was talking about the lack of speed due to the lack of technology in the OT - that totaly indicates inferior speed of the characters in universe.
Really Janus. It's outright senseless to assume that Dooku as he appears in AotC who didn't have a reason to use his lightsaber for 12 years and is 80 years old could keep or even increase his duelling skill while Obi-Wan in the age of 57 suddenly forgot how to handle a lightsaber and had a huge decrease in terms of speed while having plenty of possible oportunities to use his lightsaber or the force (due to the enviroment he lived in and his little Mission in the Last Jedi series).
At least Obi-Wans "Cut the arm with the blaster off" speed didn't seem to have decreased from AotC to ANH. But apparently he changed his fighting agenda due to the circumstances from "I'm a Jedi, so I just removed your hand holding the weapon" to "Now I'm a Jedi trying to not look like a Jedi, so I took the entire arm". Maybe BEN is an abbreviation for Bloodthirsty Enraged and Nasty.
Dude. Those books are C-canon unless LFL says something different and apparently you aren't LFL.
By this logic, the "Choose Your Own Adventure" Star Wars books that followed the trilogy are canon too. Good job, Nai.
You'd better read them. Triclops is the supposed son of Palpatine meaning there is no proof for that claim. And a lack of popularity combined with bad writing doesn't make them less canon.
No, I think you should read them. From the glossary at the back of the final book (Prophets of the Dark Side):
Kendalina
A Jedi Princess who was forced to serve as a nurse in an Imperial insane asylum deep in the spice mines of Kessel.
Triclops
The true mutant, three-eyed son of the late Emperor Palpatine. Triclops has spent most of his life in Imperial insane asylums, but is now under observation by the Alliance at DRAPAC. He has two eyes on the front of his head and one on the back. He has scars on his temples from shock treatments, and his hair is white and jagged, sticking out in all directions.
Those are just two of many instances of non-canon, non-replicated bullshit. Jedi royalty now, huh? Palpatine having sex at all, much less with an alien to produce a mutant?
Yeah Nai. If those books are canon, then green bunnies leap from my ass.
At least Ken and Kadann appear in the Essential Guide to Characters either, in Kadann's case the same is true for the DS sourcebook and the Dark Forces saga.
Actually, Ken appears nowhere in the New Essential Guide to Characters with Kadann appearing in the appendix with an altered storyline mentioning Trioculus. Laughingly, Trioculus himself is given no entry and Kadann is killed off by a random Grand Admiral Makati (whom nobody has ever heard of).
Looks like they're not canon.
Originally posted by IKC
By this logic, the "Choose Your Own Adventure" Star Wars books that followed the trilogy are canon too. Good job, Nai.
Argumentum ad absurdum. Fallacia non causae ut causae. Petitio principii. Or was that just an attempt to use some argumentum ad auditores ? Good job, IKC.
Those are just two of many instances of non-canon, non-replicated bullshit. Jedi royalty now, huh? Palpatine having sex at all, much less with an alien to produce a mutant?Yeah Nai. If those books are canon, then green bunnies leap from my ass.
And again you have provided proof that "looking at the cover" doesn't equal "reading the book". The "Jedi princess" is called so by the people on Kessel and the reason for that is unknown. My cousin calls his daughter "princess" sometimes and I'm pretty sure that he isn't a king.
Triclops is still the supposed son of Palpatine and even then his mother is not known which leaves the possibility that Triclops is a failed Clone / Sith Alchemy experiment or he isn't Palpatine's son and this is just a legend / lie (see Irek Ismaren).
Palpatine having sex ? Let me think... You control the entire galaxy and happen to be the richest dude around and you totally hate all the rules the Jedi have established. Since you are an Emperor you might need heirs...what would you do ?
Again nice work with the logical fallacies:
- postulating "jedi royality" because somebody is called "princess", creating false syllogism - fallacia non causae ut causae
- postulating "Triclops was Palpatine's son" when this is not clearly stated in the source material - drawing own conclusion - fallacia non causae ut causae
- postulating that Palpatine must have sex with an alien in order to have a son with three eyes - again creating false sellogism - fallacia non causae ut causae again
- postulating "Palpatine having sex" as an absurd idea - try using an argumentum ad absurdum / Petitio principii
Actually, Ken appears nowhere in the New Essential Guide to Characters with Kadann appearing in the appendix with an altered storyline mentioning Trioculus. Laughingly, Trioculus himself is given no entry and Kadann is killed off by a random Grand Admiral Makati (whom nobody has ever heard of).
Ah yes. Grand Admiral Makati whom nobody has ever heard of. This is coming from the guy who owns Timothy Zahns "Visions of the Future" as he has shown me some weeks ago - the same book Makati is mentioned in for the first time. Missing many "details" like that ?
And he killed a pretender not the original Kadann. It basically works like this: The Jedi prince series was written, then the RPG mag Polyhydron (without authorisation) declared that this is a story told by Leia to her children (which is dumb) and the DS Sourcebook retconned this with declaring the Kadann appearing to be a pretender. Apparently LFL has put quite some effort into fitting the stories into the timeline like stating that the false Kadann was a pretender (DS Sourcebook), he tried to take power from Ysanne Isard despite the fact that she isn't mentioned in the books and shortening the events depicted from 5 to 1 year. Nice try of using an argumentum ad verecundiam.
By the way: Why did you attack this relative minor point at all ? Ignoratio elenchi ? The topic is "OT Obi-Wan and Vader vs Dooku" and not "Can we consider the Jedi Prince series to be canon"...
*hint* Maybe you should spend less time with certain Schopenhauer texts and try Platons "Sophist" dialogue or Aristotles "Topica" or "De Sophistici Elenchi" instead. *hint*