Okay, Vader has shown us more:
Agility/Speed
Experience in lightsaber to lightsaber dueling
Strength
Endurance
Force Mastery
*Choked an Officer who was godknows how far away
*Tossed around debris like it was nothing in ESB
Choked three people at a time, one of which went flying ( http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=8&f=19&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_19 )
*
EDIT: My computer is going loopy, I'll post/repost when I figure this out.
Alright. Finally. Now...
Establish Obi-Wan and Vader's power in relation to Dooku at this point.
You still haven't shown me how worthwhile Obi-Wan's training is. Obviously, he's not better than Vader since he couldn't defeat him as of ANH. Again, Vader might be more powerful in the force than he used to be, but he fights differently, and he's hardly as dextrous and slick in combat.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Alright. Finally. Now...Establish Obi-Wan and Vader's power in relation to Dooku at this point.
You still haven't shown me how worthwhile Obi-Wan's training is. Obviously, he's not better than Vader since he couldn't defeat him as of ANH. Again, Vader might be more powerful in the force than he used to be, but he fights differently, and he's hardly as dextrous and slick in combat.
Yeah, now he has tremendous strength and toughness, and plays off that in a lightsaber fight. Also, see Crimson Empire if you think Vader is slow, not agile, or a bad duelist.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yeah, now he has tremendous strength and toughness, and plays off that in a lightsaber fight. Also, see Crimson Empire if you think Vader is slow, not agile, or a bad duelist.
Yeah, because if Vader was better than he was in ROTS, he would have defeated Palpatine and taken over.
Oops! That didn't happen!
Seriously. If Vader > Dooku, then Vader would be good enough to stand up to Yoda or defeat Sidious.
... Except that's not the case. Even GL has said that OT fighters are nothing compared to PT ones. This includes mighty Lord Vader and Hermit Obi-Wan.
Hmm, do you think that Obi Wan knowing Anakins style, reactions, etc could really count for that much? If Anakin was better than Sidious, he was better than Yoda. Yoda said that Obi Wan was not powerful to take on the Emperor. That means Anakin> Obi wan (a substantial amount, I would imagine). These contradicting quotes are too much. I give up.
Well, he very nearly did quite a few times. But unfortunately the key source of a lot of Anakin's strength (When he -really- taps into his force potential) is when he's pissed and not exactly thinking right. Anakin probably could dust Sidious about five to ten years from ROTS, but he hadn't mastered the mind aspect of the game.
I wonder why didn't the Jedi remnants (Obi1 and Yoda) use "concentration of the local force" to their advantage?
Two men can defeat 200 men if they ambush them one at a time together. its always 2 to 1 situation."
Together they could have walked over Anakin and after that, the Emperor.
Germany lost in the eastern front mostly because they split their offensive in two branches. in ww2.
Both Obi-Wan and Vader did have training after the PT. But I was under the impression Obi-Wan was learning how to go ghost form which wouldnt help his duel with Dooku at all. I could be wrong however. But after he became a hermit he wouldnt have had anyone to duel for years - up until his confrontation with Vader. His force powers would have increased but his saber skills would have dramatically decreased. This isnt a good thing if you are fighting someone who is a master of Makashi, the lightsaber to lightsaber style. He will get pwned.
As for Vader. His strength, experience and force knowledge would have increased but his speed significantly decreased. And I was under the impression he only bet Count Dooku in ROTS because Dooku overpowered him with all his fast attacks.
Hmm...interresting...
I think some people should not judge the OT characters by their appearance in the OT movies only.
Vader
We know that Anakin / Vader lost a great amount of his natural potential in ROTS. But he gained force knowledge (Dark Side) and control. And the last thing is important. In ROTS when he still had his entire potential he wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan (seen when they try to force push each other in their duel on Mustafar) - the very same Obi-Wan that was nearly singled out for the agricultural corps because of his lack of force potential before becoming a Padawan. So here we have the upper limit in terms of potential (Anakin) stalemating the bottom limit (Obi-Wan) in a force contest because Obi-Wan had 20 year of training advantage (meaning control).
So even if he lost great parts of his potential he might have been able to compensate that by gaining force control. The Emperor and Vader trained a nice amount of Dark Siders in the 2 decades of their reign and still Vader remained the unquestioned number 2 of the Empire - which actually shows us that he is still more powerful than the other people (including trained PT Jedi like Jerec).
We also know that Vader lost some amounts of speed / dexterity but even here you have compensation. First he gained pretty much strength due to his cybernatic body parts. Then he had his armor which partially protected him against lightsaber strikes (otherwise Luke would have cut his arm off in ESB when hitting him).
And he did refine his lightsaber style. Of course he still had his form V mastery at hand. In RoDV you have Jedi Master Roan Shryne noticing that Vader started to introduce form III and IV movements into his style and his fight against Luke in ESB (partially one-handed fighting) can lead to the suggestion that he experimented with form II too. At the very least Vader can't be easily tooled in lightsaber fights. In RoDV and Purge you have him fighting multiple Jedi at once. In one situation he even gets his weapon arm cut off, picks his own seperated limb up and kills the Jedi who did cut if off with the weapon that remained in his hand. In Purge after Jedi Master Shadday Potkin disabled his lightsaber using a cortosis blade he simply picks her up and breaks her neck.
And apparently he handled his lightsaber precisely enought to give Kir Karnos just a scar on his face while cutting through his face mask (and he wanted exactly that).
If Vader really was as slow and weak in the force as some people seem to have in their mind some Jedi he hunted should have tooled him e.g. the Dark Women who was over a century old (and still in great physical condition) when Vader found her. Instead he threw a tree at her...
Obi-Wan
Obi-Wan did more then just sit on his ass for 20 years on Tatooine. In "The Last of the Jedi" he escapes Inquisitor Malorum as well as Boba Fett and is forced to eliminate Inquisitor Sancor. Obviously that gave him enough experience to learn "the way of the Whills" from Qui-Gon's spirit. Remember that the Whills (in SW mythology) are the "history keepers" of the SW galaxy, most likely "higher beings" who are suspected to be immortal. And Qui-Gon learned the secret how to remain as a spirit within the force from one of them (and some other stuff).
And if you read the "Jedi Prince" novels apparently Obi-Wan managed to enter the spice mines on Kessel in 7 BBY, kidnap Ken (Palpatine's grand child) and move him to the Lost City of the Jedi on Yavin 4. If Kenobi gained knowledge about the Lost City which was abandoned even before Sadow's time and just a legend even among the Jedi Order and managed to move into one of the Empire's protected industrial facilities and "steal" a child basically unnoticed I'm quite sure he gained some huge knowledge during his Exile.
Also remember that he spent his time in one of the most dangerous places in the entire Galaxy filled with Tusken, Jawas, Krayd Dragons and other inconvenient surprises.
So while Dooku is the same he was in ROTS, Anakin / Vader and Obi-Wan have gained more force control, more force knowledge and had enough opportunities to develope their lightsaber abilities. I really don't think that Dooku can tool them as easily as he did in AotC or ROTS. Either Dooku loses this or he will have a damn hard fight against those two.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Wow, I leave for five seconds and the Vader Fans Incorporated all cluster here and start power chatting.And yes, I am ignoring Mader's post. He posts like once a month, and never with more than five active brain cells at a time. If you couldn't get that from reading all of his posts (including the necromanc'd threads he brought back from the grave) then I'm sorry you can't see where I'm coming from.
And again, I ask all of you:
CAN YOU MAKE A CONVINCING ARGUMENT FOR WHY VADER AND OBI-WAN WILL MESH TOGETHER PERFECTLY AND BE ABLE TO DEFEAT COUNT DOOKU?
Instead of nitpicking, or saying "Zomg Yaddle beat someone!" (Yes, cuz she was a jedi master in the jedi temple... a bit different from being a hermit on a desert planet for twenty years), try and make a good argument. I made an excellent one, complete with animations and everything. You guys are just riding Vader's nuts and being ridiculous.
of course I dont post as much I'm not like a godly ass fan as u are your probably one of those nerds who slept out a movie theatre for 2 weeks waiting for ROTS to come out I don't waste my time looking for information about star wars 24/7. I only come here once and a while to see whats going on
I bet your one of those fat nerds or skinny ones that have lots of pimples and ****ed up teeth kk thx goodbye.
And Obi-wan beat Anakin because obi-wan according to his training higher ground wins and obi was on higher ground.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Hmm...interresting...I think some people should not judge the OT characters by their appearance in the OT movies only.
[b]Vader
We know that Anakin / Vader lost a great amount of his natural potential in ROTS. But he gained force knowledge (Dark Side) and control. And the last thing is important. In ROTS when he still had his entire potential he wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan (seen when they try to force push each other in their duel on Mustafar) - the very same Obi-Wan that was nearly singled out for the agricultural corps because of his lack of force potential before becoming a Padawan. So here we have the upper limit in terms of potential (Anakin) stalemating the bottom limit (Obi-Wan) in a force contest because Obi-Wan had 20 year of training advantage (meaning control).So even if he lost great parts of his potential he might have been able to compensate that by gaining force control. The Emperor and Vader trained a nice amount of Dark Siders in the 2 decades of their reign and still Vader remained the unquestioned number 2 of the Empire - which actually shows us that he is still more powerful than the other people (including trained PT Jedi like Jerec).
We also know that Vader lost some amounts of speed / dexterity but even here you have compensation. First he gained pretty much strength due to his cybernatic body parts. Then he had his armor which partially protected him against lightsaber strikes (otherwise Luke would have cut his arm off in ESB when hitting him).
And he did refine his lightsaber style. Of course he still had his form V mastery at hand. In RoDV you have Jedi Master Roan Shryne noticing that Vader started to introduce form III and IV movements into his style and his fight against Luke in ESB (partially one-handed fighting) can lead to the suggestion that he experimented with form II too. At the very least Vader can't be easily tooled in lightsaber fights. In RoDV and Purge you have him fighting multiple Jedi at once. In one situation he even gets his weapon arm cut off, picks his own seperated limb up and kills the Jedi who did cut if off with the weapon that remained in his hand. In Purge after Jedi Master Shadday Potkin disabled his lightsaber using a cortosis blade he simply picks her up and breaks her neck.
And apparently he handled his lightsaber precisely enought to give Kir Karnos just a scar on his face while cutting through his face mask (and he wanted exactly that).If Vader really was as slow and weak in the force as some people seem to have in their mind some Jedi he hunted should have tooled him e.g. the Dark Women who was over a century old (and still in great physical condition) when Vader found her. Instead he threw a tree at her...
Obi-Wan
Obi-Wan did more then just sit on his ass for 20 years on Tatooine. In "The Last of the Jedi" he escapes Inquisitor Malorum as well as Boba Fett and is forced to eliminate Inquisitor Sancor. Obviously that gave him enough experience to learn "the way of the Whills" from Qui-Gon's spirit. Remember that the Whills (in SW mythology) are the "history keepers" of the SW galaxy, most likely "higher beings" who are suspected to be immortal. And Qui-Gon learned the secret how to remain as a spirit within the force from one of them (and some other stuff).And if you read the "Jedi Prince" novels apparently Obi-Wan managed to enter the spice mines on Kessel in 7 BBY, kidnap Ken (Palpatine's grand child) and move him to the Lost City of the Jedi on Yavin 4. If Kenobi gained knowledge about the Lost City which was abandoned even before Sadow's time and just a legend even among the Jedi Order and managed to move into one of the Empire's protected industrial facilities and "steal" a child basically unnoticed I'm quite sure he gained some huge knowledge during his Exile.
Also remember that he spent his time in one of the most dangerous places in the entire Galaxy filled with Tusken, Jawas, Krayd Dragons and other inconvenient surprises.So while Dooku is the same he was in ROTS, Anakin / Vader and Obi-Wan have gained more force control, more force knowledge and had enough opportunities to develope their lightsaber abilities. I really don't think that Dooku can tool them as easily as he did in AotC or ROTS. Either Dooku loses this or he will have a damn hard fight against those two. [/B]
Damn good post Borbarad
You bring up some pretty good points, as well as some awesome stuff I didn't know...
I must ponder this...
Originally posted by Lord Mader
of course I dont post as much I'm not like a godly ass fan as u are your probably one of those nerds who slept out a movie theatre for 2 weeks waiting for ROTS to come out I don't waste my time looking for information about star wars 24/7. I only come here once and a while to see whats going onI bet your one of those fat nerds or skinny ones that have lots of pimples and ****ed up teeth kk thx goodbye.
And Obi-wan beat Anakin because obi-wan according to his training higher ground wins and obi was on higher ground.
Oh I love it how most people that gets owned on this forum starts to assume that the ones who are here are nerds who do nothing else than sit on these forums. There is no more proof that he is a nerd than there is that you are one, but at least he is not crying because his favourite character lost. You got owned, get over it.....
Originally posted by Lord Mader
of course I dont post as much I'm not like a godly ass fan as u are your probably one of those nerds who slept out a movie theatre for 2 weeks waiting for ROTS to come out I don't waste my time looking for information about star wars 24/7.
Yes, folks- that's all one sentence. Let's all congratulate Mader for being hardcore and educated.
I only come here once and a while to see whats going on
And the rest of us don't? Hm?
I bet your one of those fat nerds or skinny ones that have lots of pimples and ****ed up teeth kk thx goodbye.
Oh noes! Teh inturnet n00b thinks I m teh fugly!!!11 ... Please. No one cares what you think other people are. Well, except for that one poor fool who got banned.
And Obi-wan beat Anakin because obi-wan according to his training higher ground wins and obi was on higher ground.
Oh yes, because being about a half a foot higher gave Obi-Wan a + 5 to hit and a + 16 to defense, right? Please.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Hmm...interresting...I think some people should not judge the OT characters by their appearance in the OT movies only.
[b]Vader
We know that Anakin / Vader lost a great amount of his natural potential in ROTS. But he gained force knowledge (Dark Side) and control. And the last thing is important. In ROTS when he still had his entire potential he wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan (seen when they try to force push each other in their duel on Mustafar) - the very same Obi-Wan that was nearly singled out for the agricultural corps because of his lack of force potential before becoming a Padawan. So here we have the upper limit in terms of potential (Anakin) stalemating the bottom limit (Obi-Wan) in a force contest because Obi-Wan had 20 year of training advantage (meaning control).So even if he lost great parts of his potential he might have been able to compensate that by gaining force control. The Emperor and Vader trained a nice amount of Dark Siders in the 2 decades of their reign and still Vader remained the unquestioned number 2 of the Empire - which actually shows us that he is still more powerful than the other people (including trained PT Jedi like Jerec).
We also know that Vader lost some amounts of speed / dexterity but even here you have compensation. First he gained pretty much strength due to his cybernatic body parts. Then he had his armor which partially protected him against lightsaber strikes (otherwise Luke would have cut his arm off in ESB when hitting him).
And he did refine his lightsaber style. Of course he still had his form V mastery at hand. In RoDV you have Jedi Master Roan Shryne noticing that Vader started to introduce form III and IV movements into his style and his fight against Luke in ESB (partially one-handed fighting) can lead to the suggestion that he experimented with form II too. At the very least Vader can't be easily tooled in lightsaber fights. In RoDV and Purge you have him fighting multiple Jedi at once. In one situation he even gets his weapon arm cut off, picks his own seperated limb up and kills the Jedi who did cut if off with the weapon that remained in his hand. In Purge after Jedi Master Shadday Potkin disabled his lightsaber using a cortosis blade he simply picks her up and breaks her neck.
And apparently he handled his lightsaber precisely enought to give Kir Karnos just a scar on his face while cutting through his face mask (and he wanted exactly that).If Vader really was as slow and weak in the force as some people seem to have in their mind some Jedi he hunted should have tooled him e.g. the Dark Women who was over a century old (and still in great physical condition) when Vader found her. Instead he threw a tree at her...
Obi-Wan
Obi-Wan did more then just sit on his ass for 20 years on Tatooine. In "The Last of the Jedi" he escapes Inquisitor Malorum as well as Boba Fett and is forced to eliminate Inquisitor Sancor. Obviously that gave him enough experience to learn "the way of the Whills" from Qui-Gon's spirit. Remember that the Whills (in SW mythology) are the "history keepers" of the SW galaxy, most likely "higher beings" who are suspected to be immortal. And Qui-Gon learned the secret how to remain as a spirit within the force from one of them (and some other stuff).And if you read the "Jedi Prince" novels apparently Obi-Wan managed to enter the spice mines on Kessel in 7 BBY, kidnap Ken (Palpatine's grand child) and move him to the Lost City of the Jedi on Yavin 4. If Kenobi gained knowledge about the Lost City which was abandoned even before Sadow's time and just a legend even among the Jedi Order and managed to move into one of the Empire's protected industrial facilities and "steal" a child basically unnoticed I'm quite sure he gained some huge knowledge during his Exile.
Also remember that he spent his time in one of the most dangerous places in the entire Galaxy filled with Tusken, Jawas, Krayd Dragons and other inconvenient surprises.So while Dooku is the same he was in ROTS, Anakin / Vader and Obi-Wan have gained more force control, more force knowledge and had enough opportunities to develope their lightsaber abilities. I really don't think that Dooku can tool them as easily as he did in AotC or ROTS. Either Dooku loses this or he will have a damn hard fight against those two. [/B]
This... is how its done.