Hmm dont see Henderson doing much against jones. He is slower than rashad and has considerably worse take down defense. Not too mention he gasses quickly. He doesnt have particularly good footwork either and so i dont see him getting inside jones reach. Really only a punchers chance. Hate to say it but after that fight, i think jones has pretty much cleaned out the division..
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Shields and Misaki? They are both natural MWs. Also, a couple bad spots on his resume does not remove the many awesome wins he also possesses. Fedor, Big Nog and Wanderlai are all naturally much bigger than he is and he has wins against all of them as wlel as the likes of Shogun, Vitor, Rich etc... All legends.
No they aren't. Shields should be fighting at Welter Weight, the only reason he looks worse now than he did at Middle Weight in Strike Force is that there are real fighters in the UFC that he has to contend with, a huge step up in competition from the Strike Force cans he is used to. Japanese fighters don't like to cut weight before a fight, but Misaki is currently and should always be a Welter Weight fighter. That being said, even if they were natural Middle Weights, Henderson himself is not. The weight cut to hit Middle Weight for the Shields fight almost killed him and he gassed after one round. Dan Henderson is a light heavy weight who has lost to welter weight fighters... the p4p best fighter in the world doesn't lose to smaller opponents... hence the "pound for pound"
Dan Henderson is one of those "cams" from strikeforce you idiot. If you look at Dan Henderson's frame he is a natural middleweight so what if he ahd a hard time cutting to middleweight one time he probably bulked up and was carrying weight beyond the ideal amount for his frame. It's like Roy Nelson he is also a natural middleweight but he'd have a hell of a time making the cut there and that's because he's one fat motherfcker. Shields and Misaki have a MW frame, you're wrong, and again, two poor "P4P" performances dodn't necessarily mean that he isn't P4P king, GSP has poor performances at WW such as against Matt Serra but that doesnt mena he isn;t WW GOAT. Dan Henderson's losses against Shields and Misaki are arguably his two worst. They are not reflective of exactly how good he really is.
This is a point you don;t seem to get. "GSP is not best WW if he was he wouldn't be losing to WWs (Matt Serra and Hughes)". Stupid...
Henderson knocked out HW GOAT and LHW great Wanderlai, and has win over 2nd greatest HW Nogueira and legendary Shogun. He is definitely in the running for P4P GOAT. Who would you personally suggets, may I ask?
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Dan Henderson is one of those "cams" from strikeforce you idiot. If you look at Dan Henderson's frame he is a natural middleweight so what if he ahd a hard time cutting to middleweight one time he probably bulked up and was carrying weight beyond the ideal amount for his frame. It's like Roy Nelson he is also a natural middleweight but he'd have a hell of a time making the cut there and that's because he's one fat motherfcker. Shields and Misaki have a MW frame, you're wrong, and again, two poor "P4P" performances dodn't necessarily mean that he isn't P4P king, GSP has poor performances at WW such as against Matt Serra but that doesnt mena he isn;t WW GOAT. Dan Henderson's losses against Shields and Misaki are arguably his two worst. They are not reflective of exactly how good he really is.This is a point you don;t seem to get. "GSP is not best WW if he was he wouldn't be losing to WWs (Matt Serra and Hughes)". Stupid...
Henderson knocked out HW GOAT and LHW great Wanderlai, and has win over 2nd greatest HW Nogueira and legendary Shogun. He is definitely in the running for P4P GOAT. Who would you personally suggets, may I ask?
Henderson isn't a can, he wasn't at Strike Force because it was his best and only option. He joined up with Strike Force because he wanted to fight Fedor, he was coming off a three fight win streak in the UFC when his contract expired, if he wanted to be in the UFC at that time he would have been. Strike Force wanted to feed Shields a loss for jumping ship to UFC and the put Hendo against him... and Hendo lost what should have been an assured victory because he can't fight optimally at Middle Weight because he is too big for the cut now.
Shields and Misaki don't have Middle Weight frames (especially not Misaki), they were pulling a BJ and fighting above the weight class they should be because the had success doing it. Roy Nelson could be a natural Middle Weight... but he isn't, he is big and fat and he would need to completely change his life style to hit that target, not drop 10-15 pounds of water weight and rehydrate before the fight. Two completely different scenarios. GSP's loses came early in his career (he was 22 years old when he lost to Huges the former WW GOAT, and still only 25 when Serra tagged him), and he as avenged both of those loses in spectacular fashion. Still, losing to Serra is a black smudge on GSP's record, but it's only one where Henderson has several.
Wandi and Fedor were over the hill when Henderson beat them, and Shogun hasn't been the same since his knee surgery. A split decision win over Big Nog is probably the best win under Henderson's belt... and Nog is still 2-1, have avenged that loss by subbing Henderson... twice. Henderson isn't the P4P best, he isn't the best fighter in his weight class, and he has lost too fighters in weight classes above him. A fighter can have losses to smaller guys, who naturally compete in weight classes under his own and still be the P4P best... a handful of losses against guys in his own weight class doesn't help the matter either.
P4P: Anderson, GSP, Jones
Henderson might crack the P4P top 10... but it would be the last slot if he did.
I see now why you are a mere Padawan. You have much to learn in the ways of the force and MMA.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Henderson isn't a can, he wasn't at Strike Force because it was his best and only option. He joined up with Strike Force because he wanted to fight Fedor, he was coming off a three fight win streak in the UFC when his contract expired, if he wanted to be in the UFC at that time he would have been. Strike Force wanted to feed Shields a loss for jumping ship to UFC and the put Hendo against him... and Hendo lost what should have been an assured victory because he can't fight optimally at Middle Weight because he is too big for the cut now.
So clearly not everyone Shields fought was a Strikeforce can then.
Shields and Misaki don't have Middle Weight frames (especially not Misaki), they were pulling a BJ and fighting above the weight class they should be because the had success doing it.
Not true. Look at Misaki:
He is 5 ft 10 with a relatively large chest and back span, which is a middleweight frame. Same with Shields:
Roy Nelson could be a natural Middle Weight... but he isn't, he is big and fat and he would need to completely change his life style to hit that target, not drop 10-15 pounds of water weight and rehydrate before the fight. Two completely different scenarios.
That is the point. Dan Henderson is also a natural MW, but he found the weight cut hard because he had put on a lot of weight beyond what is ideal for his frame. As you said he moved to SF to face Fedor, he was probably in the process of bulking up to HW.
GSP's loses came early in his career (he was 22 years old when he lost to Huges the former WW GOAT, and still only 25 when Serra tagged him), and he as avenged both of those loses in spectacular fashion.
There are always excuses. Dan Henderson may not have beene arly on in his career but those losses are not a real showing of how good he is. He was not at his best in either of thgem.
Still, losing to Serra is a black smudge on GSP's record, but it's only one where Henderson has several.
True, and if we ignore P4P considerations his resume is arguably better (though his only real great wins are against Penn, hughes, Fitch, Shields and Sherk, where hendo has beaten Fedor, Nog, Shogun, Wanderlai, Vitor, Rich, Yvel, Ninja, Bubalu, Renzo, Nakamura, Murilo Bustamante). P4P though, GSP only ever had real success at single weight class. So he doesn't quialify, imo.
Wandi and Fedor were over the hill when Henderson beat them,
Just because Fedor has two losses doesn;t mena he is over the hill he is still only 35 and his loss to Fabricio Werdum was unlucky, where he plaeyd possuim and then got submityed by an eltie Jiu-Jitsu master. Since his loss to Hendo Fedor has been winning again. And Wanderlai after losing to Hendo would soon give Prime Chuck a real good fight. Pealpe have habit of saying that fighetrs who suddenly have a coupe of losses are over the hill, despite their age or any other real reasons.
and Shogun hasn't been the same since his knee surgery.
Since UFC 97 the Shogun we have seen is the best Shogun ever. he got brutalised by Jones and Hendo but his performances against Machida were his all time best, and he was great against Chuck as wlel.
A split decision win over Big Nog is probably the best win under Henderson's belt... and Nog is still 2-1, have avenged that loss by subbing Henderson... twice.
Well it is actually 1-1 and Nog is probbaly second great HW of all time...
Henderson isn't the P4P best, he isn't the best fighter in his weight class, and he has lost too fighters in weight classes above him. A fighter can have losses to smaller guys, who naturally compete in weight classes under his own and still be the P4P best... a handful of losses against guys in his own weight class doesn't help the matter either.
His record is 29-8 and his losses are against elite competition for the most part.
P4P: Anderson, GSP, Jones
I disagree. Jones should be fighting at HW. Anderson should be fighting at LHW. Not any of them have had great success at higher weight classes. Waith till they od before you start claling them P4P greats.
Currently, the best are: Hendo, Frankie Edgar, BJ and Vitor. Maybe people like Rashad, Machida and Shogun who should all be fighting at MW, yet still do great at LHW. Benavidez and mighty mosue arguable as well. And you know, maybe even JDS who is very small for HW.
Henderson might crack the P4P top 10... but it would be the last slot if he did.
He is natural MW who is just coming off of wins against Fedor and Shogun... he should be much higher.
I see now why you are a mere Padawan. You have much to learn in the ways of the force and MMA.
lol 😂
May you be with the Force...
Anybody here losten to Muse btw?
This would be my walkout song if I ever becema a fighter 😂
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
So clearly not everyone Shields fought was a Strikeforce can then.
He only had three or four fights at Strike Force, but Henderson was the only legitimate top tier fight (sorry Mayhem Miller, I like you but you just aren't that good). You can make a case that Shields should be 0-4 in the UFC right now. It's a disgrace that he was gifted a decision over Kampmann to hype a GSP title fight, and I would have given Sexyama the decision victory for his Sexy Judo throws.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Not true. Look at Misaki:He is 5 ft 10 with a relatively large chest and back span, which is a middleweight frame. Same with Shields:
He's a little stout, but certainly does not have a Middleweight Frame. Japanese fighters don't like using the system and tend to compete at what ever class their natural weight falls into, guys like Henderson cut 15-20 pounds of water weight for the weigh in and come in heavier for the actual fight. Misaki is a welterweight.
Same goes for Shields. His spindly week vegan frame shouldn't be competing at Middleweight with game competition. He could hit the game and put on some mass and become a proper middleweight... but he isn't one right now. I doubt he had to do much of a cut if any at all to hit the middleweight restrictions.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
That is the point. Dan Henderson is also a natural MW, but he found the weight cut hard because he had put on a lot of weight beyond what is ideal for his frame. As you said he moved to SF to face Fedor, he was probably in the process of bulking up to HW.
Dan Henderson is not a natural MW, he might have been at one time... but that is long past. He is old now and the cut is too hard, has too much mass, and the weight cut destroys his cardio... he has a hard enough time not gassing at LHW right now.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
There are always excuses. Dan Henderson may not have beene arly on in his career but those losses are not a real showing of how good he is. He was not at his best in either of thgem.
Those weren't excuses, they were context.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
True, and if we ignore P4P considerations his resume is arguably better (though his only real great wins are against Penn, hughes, Fitch, Shields and Sherk, where hendo has beaten Fedor, Nog, Shogun, Wanderlai, Vitor, Rich, Yvel, Ninja, Bubalu, Renzo, Nakamura, Murilo Bustamante). P4P though, GSP only ever had real success at single weight class. So he doesn't quialify, imo.
Half of those "big names" for Hendo are extremely suspect, the GSP equivalent of Hieron, Parisyan and Hardy. Also you count Sherk for GSP but not Kos and Alves?
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Just because Fedor has two losses doesn;t mena he is over the hill he is still only 35 and his loss to Fabricio Werdum was unlucky, where he plaeyd possuim and then got submityed by an eltie Jiu-Jitsu master. Since his loss to Hendo Fedor has been winning again. And Wanderlai after losing to Hendo would soon give Prime Chuck a real good fight. Pealpe have habit of saying that fighetrs who suddenly have a coupe of losses are over the hill, despite their age or any other real reasons.
Fedor is a legend but he is past his prime now, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. He is on a two fight win streak right now... but against who? He isn't fight top 20 competitors any more. He should retire and go hang out with Crocop some where.
Prime Chuck as subsequently be addressed by several other posters.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Since UFC 97 the Shogun we have seen is the best Shogun ever. he got brutalised by Jones and Hendo but his performances against Machida were his all time best, and he was great against Chuck as wlel.
Shogun injured his knee a second time during his title victory over Machida, you are thinking of his original knee injury against Griffen. We haven't seen if Shogun can return to his fighting prime since that surgery, but so far he doesn't look nearly as good as he did before.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Well it is actually 1-1 and Nog is probbaly second great HW of all time...
Yeah I mistakenly attributed Little Nog's win to Big Nog.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
His record is 29-8 and his losses are against elite competition for the most part.
True enough.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
I disagree. Jones should be fighting at HW. Anderson should be fighting at LHW. Not any of them have had great success at higher weight classes. Waith till they od before you start claling them P4P greats.
Probably true on both accounts, but their records speak for themselves. Anderson would probably do fine at Middleweight, but he wouldn't be the champ (even baring Jones), he'd be to the MW division as BJ was to the WW. Jones would have to pull an Overeem and add a great deal of mass if he wanted to compete effectively at HW... but so far no one has had anything for him at LHW, everyone he fights just stands their like a deer caught in the head lights. Who is even next in line for a title shot with Jones after Hendo? Gustafsson? Maybe Bonnar? Anyone think those guys have any change against him?
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Currently, the best are: Hendo, Frankie Edgar, BJ and Vitor. Maybe people like Rashad, Machida and Shogun who should all be fighting at MW, yet still do great at LHW. Benavidez and mighty mosue arguable as well. And you know, maybe even JDS who is very small for HW.
Frankie for sure, since he should be feather weight, prime BJ is there too... but he is two fat and lazy now. The rest thought? Maybe Mighty Mouse but I thought Uncle Creepy beat him, so I'm not sure he is the best Flyweight. Rashad would have cut off one of his massive legs to hit MW, Machida and Shogun could probably drop down, Machida would likely have an easier time with the cut than Shogun.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
He is natural MW who is just coming off of wins against Fedor and Shogun... he should be much higher.
Henderson is a natural LHW who used to be able to exploit the system and fight at MW the same way Anderson has fought at WW. Fedor is past his Prime and a lot of people feel like Shogun should have won that fight with Hendo or at the very least it should have been a draw.
Originally posted by I-Drop
All female MMA card @8pm EST. at invictafc.com.Hendo has a puncher's chance against Jones. Won't be enough.
Managed to catch two of those fights last night. Kaitlin Young vs Leslie Smith was crazy! I came back from the bar just as it started, glad I didn't miss it. It was one hell of a fight. Liz Carmouche vs... who ever the hell she fought wasn't anything special. Her opponent had no ground game to speak off and the fight ended quickly.