Originally posted by batdude123
Mighty Mouse outstruck Cruz because Cruz shattered his hand in the first round and was basically fighting one-handed from that point on.
True (I seen pictures 😘 ) was that in first round though?
I have to say its pretty impressive how Dominick can outstrike almost anyone (maybe anyone if it is true broken hand eld to mighty mosue outpointing him in standup) as well as outwrestle anyone in his division.
Most well wroudned champions are probably definitely jon jones, georges st pierre, and dominick cruz (maybe benson henderson) as they are only people who cna do that. and out of them jon jones is only one that is really dangerous.
lol at Rich Franklin after being kicked in the balls. 😂
Anyone else think that the fight should have been stopped? There was a brief period where Rich wasn't intelligently defending himself.
Also Fabricio for title shot. I think he does better in his rematch with JDS. But I would also love to see him fight Frank Mir as I think he has much better Jits (think he might have best Jiu-Jitsu in MMA, possibly P4P even better than Demian Maia), though Frank Mir may possibly be better strictly when it comes to submissions. Would be awesome fight if it went to the ground. Would also like to see him up against Big Nog as I think fight could be good no matter where it goes, though Nog obviously has better stand up.
No.
Despite having higher sub rate and subbing more impressive BJJ guys?
No.
Despite Rich not intelligently defending himself?
No.
And just why not? He's one of the few top tier guys right now who hasn't suffered recent loss to the champion, and his striking has improved vastly since their last fight and he is always massive threat on ground. He is probably one of most well rounder fighters at HW.
Cain - lost very recently against JDS.
Mir - Just lost against JDS
Big Nog - coming off lost.
Big Foot - coming off loss.
Russow - Just got beaten by Fabricio
Mark Hunt - great stylistic match up but hasn't earned it.
So who else is more deserved?
BTW I responded in jumbled order hope you don;t mind. I'll let you figure out which goes to which, "pal".
Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Despite having higher sub rate and subbing more impressive BJJ guys?
One of these guys is an ADCC champion, and it isn't Frank Mir. He'd get humiliated if he went to the ground with Werdum.
Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Despite Rich not intelligently defending himself?
Despite Rich not being out, and the fact that he f*ckin dominated Wanderlei for the remainder of the fight.
Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
And just why not? He's one of the few top tier guys right now who hasn't suffered recent loss to the champion, and his striking has improved vastly since their last fight and he is always massive threat on ground. He is probably one of most well rounder fighters at HW.Cain - lost very recently against JDS.
Mir - Just lost against JDS
Big Nog - coming off lost.
Big Foot - coming off loss.
Russow - Just got beaten by Fabricio
Mark Hunt - great stylistic match up but hasn't earned it.So who else is more deserved?
BTW I responded in jumbled order hope you don;t mind. I'll let you figure out which goes to which, "pal".
Because it should take more than a win over Roy Nelson and Mike Russow to get you a title shot. I'm pretty sure they're setting up Cain/JDS 2 anyway at the moment.
Which is why I say that Werdum's Jits is overall probably superior but I think Mir's "MMA Jiu-Jitsu", specifically his aptitude with submissions in MMA, may be superior.
It looked like he was briefly out, and that was obviously after he recovered after the round ended.
Roy Nelson is dangerous guy with a lot of power, great chin, and also very technical, and realistically should be viewed around the lower end of the top ten UFC HWs, and Fabricio destroyed him. Likewise with Russow who was a promising contender and was looking to possibly be in the mix if he had managed a win against Werdum, and before his loss against Overeem he beat Fedor and Big Foot Silva. Not exactly the worst recent record. But the point is, there is nobody that can fight right that you can really say is better than Fabricio, that hasn't lost to JDS recently or isn;t coming off of a loss period. Cain destroyed Big Foot but he doesn't deserve another shot so soon after his spectacular loss, imo. Anyways if someone like Cormier doesn't sign soon, I think Fabricio should get next shot after Cain.
Werdum's standup is lightyears behind JDS. His striking is only "much improved" because he had shitty striking to begin with. I am not impressed with a KO win over Mike Russow. Mike Russow's career highlight is losing to Sergei Kharitonov.
Werdum got horribly outstruck in a sparring match with the much smaller, past his prime Wanderlei Silva. He isn't doing shit to JDS without some serious luck.
No joke, the fact we are even discussing this is testament to the lack of talent in the HW division right now.
Oh, and I forgot. You all probably heard already, but Fedor retired.
Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Which is why I say that Werdum's Jits is overall probably superior but I think Mir's "MMA Jiu-Jitsu", specifically his aptitude with submissions in MMA, may be superior.It looked like he was briefly out, and that was obviously after he recovered after the round ended.
Roy Nelson is dangerous guy with a lot of power, great chin, and also very technical, and realistically should be viewed around the lower end of the top ten UFC HWs, and Fabricio destroyed him. Likewise with Russow who was a promising contender and was looking to possibly be in the mix if he had managed a win against Werdum, and before his loss against Overeem he beat Fedor and Big Foot Silva. Not exactly the worst recent record. But the point is, there is nobody that can fight right that you can really say is better than Fabricio, that hasn't lost to JDS recently or isn;t coming off of a loss period. Cain destroyed Big Foot but he doesn't deserve another shot so soon after his spectacular loss, imo. Anyways if someone like Cormier doesn't sign soon, I think Fabricio should get next shot after Cain.
Mir's MMA Jiu Jitsu isn't better. Werdum wouldn't be dominated by Brock Lesnar's top game.
It's not like Rich went limp or anything. And the fact that Rich was able to look like nothing happened in the subsequent three rounds just shows that it was a good no-call.
If anybody deserves it the most, it'd for sure be Cormier. But since that isn't going to happen (at least for now), using the "but there's nobody left" argument doesn't really cut it. Fact is, a two-fight win-streak over Nelson, who's definitely game, but falls well short of the upper echelon of heavyweights, and Russow, who's most significant showing is a Hail Mary punch over Todd Duffee after getting dominated for almost 3 full rounds, shouldn't make you a top contender. He needs at least one more win. I'd suggest Werdum vs. Cain for a title eliminator, but as I said before, I think they're trying to make Cain/JDS 2.
I wouldn't mind a Werdum/Cain match before the title fight. I see Cain winning though.
In other news, Anderson Silva says, among other things, he will beat Chael so badly it will change the image of this sport.
Originally posted by batdude123
Mir's MMA Jiu Jitsu isn't better. Werdum wouldn't be dominated by Brock Lesnar's top game.
Brock is a beast of a man with incredible wrestling and formal training in applied MMA Jiu-Jitsu, and has some of the best ground and pound in the division with his hammerfists of doom.
1. Strength and size does matter when it comes to Jiu-Jitsu, hence there being weight classes in Jiu-Jitsu tournaments and proper technique actually using your own weight to some extent.
2. As many Jiu-Jitsu practitioners will say, there is no better counter to Jiu-Jitsu than being punched in the face.
Both were in effect in devastating fashion with Frank Mir's fights with Brock Lesnar. It's not really a massive mark against his Jiu-Jitsu. And as said, I already admitted that Fabricio probably has better positional Jiu-Jitsu, so maybe he wouldn't get quite as dominated like that. But it's likely he wouldn't be able to have pulled off the submission if he had been in Frank's position.
The fact of the matter is that Frank does have the better submission rate of the two, seems to pull them off with more ease and force and in worse positions. He was getting the shit beat out of him when he pulled it off against Brock. And well, against Big Nog, he actually got rocked on the feet standing first off, so he was dizzy, and Big Nog was the person to initiate the grappling match on the ground, so Mir was briefly dizzy and in an inferior position, and still managed to turn the tables and pull of the submission, a man with a third degree BJJ Black Belt, impressive grappling credentials himself and one of the greatest HW submission artists in MMA as well. You can't argue that it's not extremely impressive.
It's not like Rich went limp or anything.
He did briefly. It's similar to how someone can be KO'd but be woken up again when their head hits the ground. You can recover during that kind of attack even if you are briefly out but usually something like that is stopped as a measure against long term brain damage.
And the fact that Rich was able to look like nothing happened in the subsequent three rounds just shows that it was a good no-call.
Because he has time to recover, and Wand gassed and had nothing to offer. It's similar to the Brock and Carwin fight, Should have been stopped, never mind that Brock ended up winning.
If anybody deserves it the most, it'd for sure be Cormier.
Agreed.
But since that isn't going to happen (at least for now), using the "but there's nobody left" argument doesn't really cut it. Fact is, a two-fight win-streak over Nelson, who's definitely game, but falls well short of the upper echelon of heavyweights, and Russow, who's most significant showing is a Hail Mary punch over Todd Duffee after getting dominated for almost 3 full rounds, shouldn't make you a top contender. He needs at least one more win. I'd suggest Werdum vs. Cain for a title eliminator, but as I said before, I think they're trying to make Cain/JDS 2.
Werdum has already established himself to be a top guy and is only person without recent loss to JDS or just coming off of a loss against someone else. Fact of the matter is you can't always give the true "No. 1 Contender" the shot at the title if he's already had his chance and blown it. Cain should need another win before having a shot against JDS again. Fact of the matter is, there is NOONE without a recent loss to JDS or coming off of a loss that has amazing recent record. Fabricio's 2-0 which is more than can be said for any other top tier HW that can fight right now. Why not give him the fight? He is better matchup to JDS than Frank Mir considering he poses same kind of threat on the groun,d but also has better standup, not as questionable a chin, and uses unorthodox "Submission Striking" such as wild kicks and crazy attacks that will often see him put on his back, that can be effective if it's the ground you ultimately want to go to.
Why should JDS have to wait for a title eliminator? He needs fight NOW. Werdum is best opponent given timing. Only other option because it is good stylistically is Mark Hunt. But he hasn't earned it and would probably get easily beaten by someone like Cain in his first defence.
Originally posted by StyleTime
[B]Werdum's standup is lightyears behind JDS. His striking is only "much improved" because he had shitty striking to begin with. I am not impressed with a KO win over Mike Russow. Mike Russow's career highlight is losing to Sergei Kharitonov.
He took it to Roy pretty nicely. He did alright against Alistair as well when they were on the feet.
JDS' striking is a bit overrated. I don't think he has really been tested against great standup guy quite yet. Even Shane Carwin is more of just a brawler and he had difficulty against Cro Cop when he was well past his prime.
Mark Hunt and Alistair Overeem have much better striking imo. What's great about JDS is his great striking + incredible TD defence (which Overeem also may have). Overeem is the Brock Lesnar of HW strikers, and he also has the TD defence to stuff a TD from someone of the calibre of Brock Lesnar. He is going to be long time champion at HW imo.
Werdum got horribly outstruck in a sparring match with the much smaller, past his prime Wanderlei Silva. He isn't doing shit to JDS without some serious luck.
Source? Wanderlai Silva's stirking is as good as ever, it is only his chin which has gotten terrible.
Also you should remember that they tone down their power during a sparring match so the size or power differential isn't really much of factor. And getting outstruck has nothing to do with that either.
No joke, the fact we are even discussing this is testament to the lack of talent in the HW division right now.
What's so bad about Werdum? For a pure BJJ guy (an incredible one at that) his striking is pretty amazing.
