ufc/pride

Reality of situation is that Anderson is going to get dominated by Chael for another 5 rounds and this time not manage to pull off submission.

I don't like the way Dana says that Anderson is unquestionably the best MMA fighter of all time, when he has massive holes in his game that many wrestlers should be able to exploit. P4P I think all of the following are better right now: Alistair Overeem, Junior Dos Santos, Jon Jones, Rashad Evans, Lyoto Machida, Georges St-Pierre, Ben Henderson, Frankie Edgar, Jose Aldo, Dominick Cruz, Mighty Mouse. They are all truly elite at their game, and have the skills to keep fight that way. Can't say the same for Anderson (his TK defence is not excellent). Prime BJ Penn (who is P4P best of all time imo), Chuck (second best P4P of all time) and even Rampage imo as well.

You can't get dominated like he did against one-dimensional fighter and still be viewed as greatest imo. This kind of thing would not happen to similar fighters like Machida, Dos Santos, or Aldo.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Reality of situation is that Anderson is going to get dominated by Chael for another 5 rounds and this time not manage to pull off submission.

I don't like the way Dana says that Anderson is unquestionably the best MMA fighter of all time, when he has massive holes in his game that many wrestlers should be able to exploit. P4P I think all of the following are better right now: Alistair Overeem, Junior Dos Santos, Jon Jones, Rashad Evans, Lyoto Machida, Georges St-Pierre, Ben Henderson, Frankie Edgar, Jose Aldo, Dominick Cruz, Mighty Mouse. They are all truly elite at their game, and have the skills to keep fight that way. Can't say the same for Anderson (his TK defence is not excellent). Prime BJ Penn (who is P4P best of all time imo), Chuck (second best P4P of all time) and even Rampage imo as well.

You can't get dominated like he did against one-dimensional fighter and still be viewed as greatest imo. This kind of thing would not happen to similar fighters like Machida, Dos Santos, or Aldo.

LoL, you have no idea what's going to happen in the fight.

LoL, he's not lost in 6 years and has one of the best records in the sport.

LoL, by "dominated", do you mean went on to beat Chael.

I have little reason to think that his wrestling defence will have improved drastically enough to make a difference from the last fight.

He has not faced the greatest competition, and where he has they have not been the kind of fighters that would exploit his weakness.

Doesn't change a thing he was still dominated for the entire fight. If it went to points he would have lost by at least 50-43. L.O.L.

Look at every great fighter that Anderson has faced:

Vitor Belfort - Striker/BJJ, no wrestling
Forrest Griffin - Not elite in any single discipline
Dan Henderson - Wrestler/Striker, but uses his wrestling in the clinch which Anderson has his Muay Thai for, does not use it with explosive takedowns
Rich Franklin - Not elite in any single discipline
Jeremy Horn - Not elite in any single discipline

He is great standing. He is great in the clinch. He is great on his back. But he is not great at keeping the fight standing against a great MMA wrestler. Which is a MASSIVE Hole in his game that was only exploited by Chael Sonnen because Chael is only elite MMA wrestler that he has faced.

Compare him to someone like Chuck - in his prime arguably best striker in his division and even best striker P4P, but also amazing at keeping the fight stading due to his incredible defencive wrestling, which manifested in his legendary takedown defence and incredible ability to get back to his feet if the fight went to the ground. Chuck will always be P4P better fighter for me because he was more complete and doesn't have such a massive weakness, regardless of whether Anderson would beat him or not (probably would as the fight would stay standing, but that is not the point. where anderson was dominated by chael, chuck would laugh in his face.)

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Brock is a beast of a man with incredible wrestling and formal training in applied MMA Jiu-Jitsu, and has some of the best ground and pound in the division with his hammerfists of doom.

1. Strength and size does matter when it comes to Jiu-Jitsu, hence there being weight classes in Jiu-Jitsu tournaments and proper technique actually using your own weight to some extent.

2. As many Jiu-Jitsu practitioners will say, there is no better counter to Jiu-Jitsu than being punched in the face.

Both were in effect in devastating fashion with Frank Mir's fights with Brock Lesnar. It's not really a massive mark against his Jiu-Jitsu. And as said, I already admitted that Fabricio probably has better positional Jiu-Jitsu, so maybe he wouldn't get quite as dominated like that. But it's likely he wouldn't be able to have pulled off the submission if he had been in Frank's position.

The fact of the matter is that Frank does have the better submission rate of the two, seems to pull them off with more ease and force and in worse positions. He was getting the shit beat out of him when he pulled it off against Brock. And well, against Big Nog, he actually got rocked on the feet standing first off, so he was dizzy, and Big Nog was the person to initiate the grappling match on the ground, so Mir was briefly dizzy and in an inferior position, and still managed to turn the tables and pull of the submission, a man with a third degree BJJ Black Belt, impressive grappling credentials himself and one of the greatest HW submission artists in MMA as well. You can't argue that it's not extremely impressive.

My dude, first of all, yes, I know a thing or two about BJJ. Second of all, I never said Mir didn't have good submissions. The thing is, Werdum's are better. And Mir has a higher submission rate, but Werdum has a higher KO rate. His fight with Brandon Vera was basically him just dominating from top control, but instead of going for the submission, he simply pounded him out.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
He did briefly. It's similar to how someone can be KO'd but be woken up again when their head hits the ground. You can recover during that kind of attack even if you are briefly out but usually something like that is stopped as a measure against long term brain damage.

It was a good no stoppage. Rich wasn't even on wobbly legs when the round ended. He was able to continue just fine, and that's really the bottom line.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Because he has time to recover, and Wand gassed and had nothing to offer. It's similar to the Brock and Carwin fight, Should have been stopped, never mind that Brock ended up winning.

No, Carwin/Lesnar shouldn't have been stopped either. No offense, but I'm glad you aren't an MMA ref. 😂

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Werdum has already established himself to be a top guy and is only person without recent loss to JDS or just coming off of a loss against someone else. Fact of the matter is you can't always give the true "No. 1 Contender" the shot at the title if he's already had his chance and blown it. Cain should need another win before having a shot against JDS again. Fact of the matter is, there is NOONE without a recent loss to JDS or coming off of a loss that has amazing recent record. Fabricio's 2-0 which is more than can be said for any other top tier HW that can fight right now. Why not give him the fight? He is better matchup to JDS than Frank Mir considering he poses same kind of threat on the groun,d but also has better standup, not as questionable a chin, and uses unorthodox "Submission Striking" such as wild kicks and crazy attacks that will often see him put on his back, that can be effective if it's the ground you ultimately want to go to.

Why should JDS have to wait for a title eliminator? He needs fight NOW. Werdum is best opponent given timing. Only other option because it is good stylistically is Mark Hunt. But he hasn't earned it and would probably get easily beaten by someone like Cain in his first defence.

Like I said, the "there's nobody left" argument doesn't cut it. Dos Santos is only a month removed from whooping Mir's ass. It's not like he's in desperate need of a fight right now. And you're acting like I'm the one who's setting up Cain/JDS. Lol, I don't think he deserves a shot right now either. My suggestion is Werdum/Cain for a title eliminator. Fact of the matter is that wins over Russow and Nelson shouldn't earn you a title shot, regardless of his wins beforehand.

Like I said, the "there's nobody left" argument doesn't cut it.

Then what would you suggest? Make champion wait? If there is really no better option, you can either take it or make the champion wait for a better one, which means less fights and less activity for the champion. Werdum and Cain both fought at same time/more recently than JDS and a title eliminator basically keeps JDS out of action for one fight period. If the champion is ready to fight he should take best challenger he can possibly take. Waiting just slows the sport down.

Most people would agree that Werdum is a top 5 UFC HW. You have JDS, Cain, Carwin, Werdum, Mir. He's the only one that JDS hasn't recently beaten. What you are suggesting holds the sport back.

Bantha got you tail Robtard?

If it went to points he would have lost by at least 50-43. L.O.L.

Just consider this for a second.

You're telling me that this guy who got dominate by 1-deminseional wrestler is the best MMArtist of all time? When his only real elite skill is his striking and maybe clinch? lol

MMA

MIXED martial arts

Anderson Silva is not complete enough to be greatest MMArtist of all time. Not by a long shot.

You honestly think if he goes up against George St Pierre that he won't get dominated by the wrestling even more decisively?

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Then what would you suggest? Make champion wait? If there is really no better option, you can either take it or make the champion wait for a better one, which means less fights and less activity for the champion. Werdum and Cain both fought at same time/more recently than JDS and a title eliminator basically keeps JDS out of action for one fight period. If the champion is ready to fight he should take best challenger he can possibly take. Waiting just slows the sport down.

Most people would agree that Werdum is a top 5 UFC HW. You have JDS, Cain, Carwin, Werdum, Mir. He's the only one that JDS hasn't recently beaten. What you are suggesting holds the sport back.

What I'm suggesting is that somebody earns a title shot, rather than gifted one on the basis of there being nobody left. This is the premiere fighting league in the world; it needs to be legitimate.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
I have little reason to think that his wrestling defence will have improved drastically enough to make a difference from the last fight.

He has not faced the greatest competition, and where he has they have not been the kind of fighters that would exploit his weakness.

Doesn't change a thing he was still dominated for the entire fight. If it went to points he would have lost by at least 50-43. L.O.L.

Except that he still beat Chael (via submission no less) despite your feelings towards his "wrestling defense".

Except he's faced Chael and has beaten him before.

Except it didn't go to points, he submitted Chael the **** out.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Bantha got you tail Robtard?

?

In perfect world it would be like that but that can't always be case and plus people will disagree on what counts as earning it. At the end of the day, if you best person available, then your only other option is to make champion wait, which nobody wants. Plus for long reigning champ which JDS will probably be, it will only be a matter of time when they beat the top few fighters anyway. So what do you suggest? They continuously beat on the same people, and not give others a chance? Roy Nelson and Mike Russow are arguably top ten in UFC, and he also has recent wins over Fedor and Big Foot. Is that not enough?

Originally posted by Robtard
Except that he still beat Chael despite your feelings towards his defense.

Except he's faced Chael and has beaten him before.

Except it didn't go to points, he choked Chael the **** out.

?

So you are proposing that he will get the submission every time?

In a fight where Chael dominated, We have every reason to think the same will take place. Same can't be said for the last second submission.

Doesn't matter. It shows how badly he was dominated. If it was 3 round fight it would have been a one sided beat down and embarassment to the champion.

For the record I love Anderson and think he's the most exciting fighter and probably best striker, in the sport. P4P, he beats probably, anybody that isn;t elite MMA wrestler that brings the fight to him.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
So you are proposing that he will get the submission every time?

In a fight where Chael dominated, We have every reason to think the same will take place. Same can't be said for the last second submission.

Doesn't matter. It shows how badly he was dominated. If it was 3 round fight it would have been a one sided beat down and embarassment to the champion.

I'm proposing that considering Anderson's record and the fact that he submitted Chael the **** out last time they met, I'd not be so quick to say "he will lose, cos he can't handle the wrestling."

Doesn't that sound odd? You're insisting that Chael will "dominate" like he did last time, but Anderson won't submit the same. Odd, no?

Except it wasn't a 3 Round Fight and Anderson won, two things that DO matter.

Chael can take him down and keep him their at will.

Anderson struggled to do anything all fight and managed the submission last second, a bit longer and he wouldn't have at all. That is difference, and that is why we can expect same from Chael, not from Anderson. Plus Chael will be more wary of submission this time round.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Chael can take him down and keep him their at will.

Anderson struggled to do anything all fight and managed the submission last second, a bit longer and he wouldn't have at all. That is difference, and that is why we can expect same from Chael, not from Anderson. Plus Chael will be more wary of submission this time round.

Except when he got his ass submitted by Anderson in the last round. Bit of an embarrassment, a known striker beating you are your own game.

And Anderson is a dope who doesn't learn anything from a previous fight? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
He took it to Roy pretty nicely. He did alright against Alistair as well when they were on the feet. JDS' striking is a bit overrated. I don't think he has really been tested against great standup guy quite yet. Even Shane Carwin is more of just a brawler and he had difficulty against Cro Cop when he was well past his prime. Mark Hunt and Alistair Overeem have much better striking imo. What's great about JDS is his great striking + incredible TD defence (which Overeem also may have). Overeem is the Brock Lesnar of HW strikers, and he also has the TD defence to stuff a TD from someone of the calibre of Brock Lesnar. He is going to be long time champion at HW imo.

Source? Wanderlai Silva's stirking is as good as ever, it is only his chin which has gotten terrible. Also you should remember that they tone down their power during a sparring match so the size or power differential isn't really much of factor. And getting outstruck has nothing to do with that either.

What's so bad about Werdum? For a pure BJJ guy (an incredible one at that) his striking is pretty amazing.

I'll get the video for you. The fact that sparring matches are usually around 50%-75% power actually supports my point dude. When power and size are removed, Werdum had to rely on his skill......and he came up short.

Personally, I find Werdum boring. I always have, and I likely always will. I appreciate his attempt to grow as a striker, but the fact that he's even a "contender" is just lol to me. Someone with his skill in practically any other weight class would lucky to be top 30.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Anderson Silva is not complete enough to be greatest MMArtist of all time. Not by a long shot.

I think you're talking about "most well rounded", which is different.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
In perfect world it would be like that but that can't always be case and plus people will disagree on what counts as earning it. At the end of the day, if you best person available, then your only other option is to make champion wait, which nobody wants. Plus for long reigning champ which JDS will probably be, it will only be a matter of time when they beat the top few fighters anyway. So what do you suggest? They continuously beat on the same people, and not give others a chance? Roy Nelson and Mike Russow are arguably top ten in UFC, and he also has recent wins over Fedor and Big Foot. Is that not enough?

MMA is a "what have you done for me lately" sport. I'm sorry, but I don't see a two fight win-streak over mediocre fighters as being worthy of a title shot. As far as Dos Santos beating up on the same guys; hey, if they've earned it, they've earned it. Throwing a variety of fighters at Dos Santos just for sheer variety's sake isn't something I agree with.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Someone with his skill in practically any other weight class would lucky to be top 30.

Come on now. That's ridiculous.

Originally posted by StyleTime
When power and size are removed, Werdum had to rely on his skill......and he came up short.

Which is my point. It doesn't matter that Wanderlai is weight class below him.

Someone with his skill in practically any other weight class would lucky to be top 30.

Disagree. He's much better than Demian Maia who was a long time top 10 MW. He's also better than Frank Mir who's a two time HW champ and has been top HW for a very long time now. Naturally BJJ guys often fight at disadvantage to striking or wrestling guys, but Werdum's striking really isn;t that bad that combined with his elite Jits makes him a very impressive fighter imo.

Yes, he is. "Greatest" refers to the ability to win, which he has. It doesn't matter if Anderson won every fight with a 1 punch KO. If he beats everyone else, he's the best.

I think you're talking about "most well rounded", which is different. [/B]

Are you going to deny that his TK down defence is a massive hole in his game that any elite MMA wrestler should be able to exploit? I don't care that he doesn't possess great offensive wrestling, but that he lacks great TK defence means that his ability to keep the fight where he's best is diminished, and while he is dangerous on the ground he's hardly an elite threat from that position. Compare that to Machida, JDS, Aldo etc who have great stand up, but are also very, very good at keeping the fight that way. If Anderson had faced more elite MMA wrestlers, his record wouldn't be half as good. If someone like Rashad dropped down he would probably be champion.

Compare him to Georges St-Pierre for example. His striking is arguably best in division, he outstruck BJ Penn and most of the people who have stood with him, and anybody that could even possibly threaten him with that he could likely just take down and dominate them on the ground.