ufc/pride

So yeah, I'd have to rank them as follows:

1. MM
2. Cain
3. Jones (I do strongly believe that Cormier will change this soon enough however)
4. Aldo

Out of the other 4, we'll have to wait to see how many times they can defend their title. Here would be a quick assessment of each of them though:

Weidman - Did not truly defeat Anderson either time imo, and I don't think he has championship level striking. His fight with Lyoto, assuming it doesn't have another crazy ending, will arguably be his first true test, but I fully expect Machida to either finish him or win convincingly.

Hendricks - Do not see him being champion for long, and while I do believe he beat GSP, it wasn't a prime GSP imo (both athletically and mentally). Can see a lot of WWs beating him, and he had close fights with Condit and Lawler. Also think his power is overrated.

Pettis - Still wasn't all that long ago that he was completely LnP'd by Clay Guida... if he handles enough high level wrestlers, I'll give him more respect, but until then I can't think that he'll be able to continue to defend his title in the longterm (submitting Bendo in the first was the exception imo, not the rule).

Dillashaw - the most promising out of all four, an absolutely great technical striker with great wrestling to boot. Completely destroyed Barao (only other champ to destroy a fighter of that calibre in such a way is Cain) and I fully expect him to defend his title for a while now. You have to have him as the #5 P4P fighter right now.

More I think about it actually, might have to put Cain at number 1. It's really hard to argue that he isn't when you look at how badly he destroyed JDS twice (and how he simply destroys everyone in general).

I do think it's cool that (imo at least) the two P4P best in the world are respectively in the highest and the lowest weight classes. Also, if Machida beats Weidman and Cormier beats Jones, I think they both break through the top 5. To truly be in the upper echelon, you've got to be champ and have quality wins and be a complete fighter, but you've also got to have been dominant (i.e. title defences, having a really impressive run to the title, performing well at a higher weight class etc.). Machida has that for sure, going on his legendary run to the title at LHW (literally got hit something like every half round on average until the first Shogun fight) and becoming champ there, as does Cormier (he's only ever lost a single round, and that was only on one judge's scorecard in his fight with Barnett, and he was an absolute beast at HW).

Anybody getting the EA Sports UFC game out of curiosity?

Woah a lot to read through. Will respond later.

I won't buy the EA game unless the demo changes my mind. I am a huge fighting game fan, and MMA(despite being my favorite sport) games don't play as well as other fighters.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Weidman - Did not truly defeat Anderson either time imo

facepalm

Second fight, absolutely no question about it, it was a freak injury. First fight, capitalised on Anderson's risky style (which was bound to happen to Andy eventually), when Anderson took the hands down clowning to new heights, and when he's arguably on the decline, physically speaking (namely speed and reflexes). Anderson defeated himself more than Weidman did.

Reading through the thread, I agree with a lot. But, I can't put Cain at p4p number 1. I like him, and he's a great fighter, but the HW division is arguably the worst division in UFC. When you consider the guys Jones/Aldo/MightyMouse have faced, and consider the incredible skill and talent level of their divisions, I just can't place Cain above them. If Hendricks/Pettis/Dillashaw have long reigns, they will rise above Cain too.

Someone with Cain's skillset in those other weight classes would not be champion. I just don't see it.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Hendricks - Do not see him being champion for long, and while I do believe he beat GSP, it wasn't a prime GSP imo (both athletically and mentally). Can see a lot of WWs beating him, and he had close fights with Condit and Lawler. Also think his power is overrated.

Even if the division as a whole is weak (not sure I agree), you can't deny that JDS is a championship level fighter, and Cain absolutely annihilated him twice.

Anderson apologists are hilarious. I forgot Anderson punched himself in the face in the first fight, and a car ran him over and broke his leg in the second fight. Smh. Weidman flat out whooped Anderson's ass for 4 rounds. In those 4 rounds, Anderson showed no signs of being a threat to the Chris. Period. I hope the butthurt will subside someday for you.

Bro, I've been one of Anderson's biggest detractors. The truth is, if you want to see a fight where he was truly beaten, look at the first Chael Sonnen fight, not the Weidman fights. Anderson fought like an idiot in the first fight, got caught but as I said, it was more of a reflection of him than it was of Weidman, and in the second fight, sure Chris directly caused the injury, but that had an extremely low chance of ever happening. That only happens 99 out of 100 times they fight, it's not a reflection of how they match up together in any regular engagement.

The truth is that Anderson has often gotten dominated early in a fight but come back strong, and he has the cardio for it. Weidman meanwhile has had difficulties with cardio in the past, and was slowing down significantly in both fights, and his takedowns were looking far less explosive in the second rounds. It's very conceivable that Anderson would have stolen the latter rounds or finished Chris at some point. I'm not saying that Anderson would have definitely have won those fights, but that doesn't mean that you can truly credit Weidman with those wins either.

Not to mention, styles make fights. Until Weidman beats anybody else of note, there isn't much separating him from someone like Hallman, who beat Hughes twice but was still nowhere near the fighter he was. He might just simply have Anderson's number. My initial point was that he needs to prove more before he can be considered as one of the true P4P best, which is absolutely true.

With the Machida fight, he gets the opportunity to defend his title, fight another elite fighter and prove that he wasn't neccessarily just a bad stylistic matchup for Anderson but can defeat a variety of elite fighters, and he also has the opportunity to win in a manner that leaves no question as to the legitimacy of the outcome. I predict he gets thoroughly outclassed, personally.

I agree with your last two paragraphs. Chris will have a chance to truly cement his position atop the 185 pound division with a win over Machida.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Even if the division as a whole is weak (not sure I agree), you can't deny that JDS is a championship level fighter, and Cain absolutely annihilated him twice.

But here's the difference, at least as I see it, between JDS and just any other striker:

1. JDS isn't just any old striker, he's proven himself against top competition. He's been untouchable against virtually everyone, and he beat and knocked out Mark Hunt, who's got some of the best striking credentials in MMA and an absolutely granite chin to boot. It's hard to compare striking across weight classes, and yeah the lighter weight classes are going to be a bit more fluid and agile but it doesn't mean that the striking level is higher. If he gets matched up with and beats Overeem, that further cements him as one of the best strikers in MMA.

2. Much more importantly, what a lot of strikers lack is the ability to deal with wrestlers, which is something JDS is exceptional at. He's got amazing TDD and when he does get taken down he springs right back up to his feet.

3. In general he's just got some extremely high level attributes. His toughness is absolutely absurd and arguably the best in the division, right up there with the likes of Roy Nelson. He's one of the top athletes at HW and moves around extremely fluidly and light on his feet for a HW. I know this isn't the biggest deal, but just to further demonstrate his well roundedness, he does also have a black belt in BJJ and as such shouldn't exactly be clueless on the ground game either.

When I said he was a championship level fighter, it wasn't about his divisional standing but his well rounded skills. He's a super tough and athletic striker who's beaten other elite strikers and is equipped to handle wrestlers. That is a championship/P4P level guy and Cain made him look like he didn't belong in the Octagon with him, twice.

No, he isn't any old striker, but neither are the strikers I mentioned or their peers, who aren't ranked number 2 in their divisions.

1. I love Mark Hunt, but let's get serious. He was well past his prime by the time he fought JDS. The fact that he is even doing well in UFC is a testament to how weak the division is. Someone like him would never fly in like...any other division. Beating Overeem(who hasn't lived up to his hype), would cement JDS as the best striker in the heavyweight division. "In all of MMA" is a huge stretch, especially with the show Dillashaw just put on.

2. No. JDS hasn't fought any career wrestlers, except Cain...who destroyed him twice. Heck, Barboza actually has a higher takedowns avoidance percentage than JDS. They actually have pretty similar stats, yet Barboza is ranked #12.

3. He's tough, I agree, but all the fighters are. Everything I am saying is comparative.

He hasn't beaten any elite strikers though. The ones that might have qualified (Crocop/Hunt) were over the hill by the time he got to them. Junior doesn't actually do as well against wrestlers as you think, no one in the HW division does. That is why Cain is so dominant. He isn't actually that well rounded, but his wrestling has gone completely unanswered by the other HWs.

Again, that shit wouldn't fly in basically any other division. Neither Cain nor JDS.

Originally posted by StyleTime
No, he isn't any old striker, but neither are the strikers I mentioned or their peers, who aren't ranked number 2 in their divisions.

He's at the very least a better pure striker than Cerrone, who got outclassed by Nate Diaz of all people.

1. I love Mark Hunt, but let's get serious. He was well past his prime by the time he fought JDS. The fact that he is even doing well in UFC is a testament to how weak the division is. Someone like him would never fly in like...any other division.

I disagree, his hand speed is looking as good as it ever has and if anything, his chin might not be what it once was but JDS was beating him to the punch the entire fight before the KO. He's still looked really good against a lot of other strikers (not so much against Bigfoot but the guy has a tonne of power and also failed the drug test after the fight). And I think the new and improved Mark Hunt, who actually has pretty decent TDD and a seemingly improved ground game would do just fine in the other divisions.

Beating Overeem(who hasn't lived up to his hype), would cement JDS as the best striker in the heavyweight division.

Overeem's looked great, he completely outclassed Bigfoot and put an absolute beating on Travis, he just gassed and got caught in both fights but otherwise he's looked great. Depending on the manner in which JDS might hypothetically beat him, it would absolutely be a legit win.

"In all of MMA" is a huge stretch, especially with the show Dillashaw just put on.

Dillashaw's style relies a lot on movement, landing with volume and being able to maintain a strong pace over the entire fight. Naturally these are things HWs are not physically built for, as they have lower on average cardio, are not as light on their feet and as they mostly have such amazing one punch KO power volume striking isn't seen as being as effective. So again, rarely will you see a HW put on such a performance, but that has far more to do with the differences in weight class. By the same token, you won't see Dillashaw perform as many one punch KOs that you've seen JDS dish out.

2. No. JDS hasn't fought any career wrestlers, except Cain...who destroyed him twice.

Are you being serious? JDS's defensive wrestling looked terrific in the Cain fights; he was getting destroyed because he couldn't handle Cain's pressure, not because he couldn't deal with the wrestling. Cain landed 13 out of 47 TD attempts and really struggled to keep JDS down, who was bouncing up straight back to his feet repeatedly, and this was before and after getting rocked and receiving a real beating from Cain. In the first fights there are moments where JDS is completely exhausted, can barely move, and was still popping straight back to his feet from TDs.

Carwin's also a great wrestler and he was completely unable to get JDS down or hold onto him; he's a very dangerous guy in general and JDS completely nullified his offence and gave him an absolute beating.

Heck, Barboza actually has a higher takedowns avoidance percentage than JDS. They actually have pretty similar stats, yet Barboza is ranked #12.

3. He's tough, I agree, but all the fighters are. Everything I am saying is comparative.

That's pretty laughable. JDS isn't merely tough, he's abnormally tough to the point where, again, I'd say the only guy that rivals him in that area is maybe Roy Nelson.

What's also hilarious is that you're saying all fighters are tough, when the guy you're comparing him to, Barboza, is losing fights because of his relative lack of toughness. I agree, Barboza's a great striker, but he's getting caught and finished by guys who just aren't anywhere near as skilled as he is, and that's one of the reasons he isn't ranked very high in the LW division.

He hasn't beaten any elite strikers though. The ones that might have qualified (Crocop/Hunt) were over the hill by the time he got to them. Junior doesn't actually do as well against wrestlers as you think, no one in the HW division does. That is why Cain is so dominant. He isn't actually that well rounded, but his wrestling has gone completely unanswered by the other HWs.

Crocop was getting beaten by everyone which is why I wouldn't list him as a great win, but Hunt has been looking great against other competition and is even now still a great striker, and JDS solidly outclassed him.

That's simply not true, Cain has been beating guys up from every position and it's a mixture of his well roundedness, pace and aggression, and his ability to mix things up as a true mixed martial artist that is leading to him dominating the other HWs.

Again, that shit wouldn't fly in basically any other division. Neither Cain nor JDS.

Are you sure you're not just being unfairly critical of the HW division? You've been extremely critical of Werdum who's looked fantastic recently. Cain, JDS and Overeem all have a skill set that would absolutely make them competitive in any division.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
He's at the very least a better pure striker than Cerrone, who got outclassed by Nate Diaz of all people. [/B]

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
I disagree, his hand speed is looking as good as it ever has and if anything, his chin might not be what it once was but JDS was beating him to the punch the entire fight before the KO. He's still looked really good against a lot of other strikers (not so much against Bigfoot but the guy has a tonne of power and also failed the drug test after the fight). And I think the new and improved Mark Hunt, who actually has pretty decent TDD and a seemingly improved ground game would do just fine in the other divisions.[/B]

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Overeem's looked great, he completely outclassed Bigfoot and put an absolute beating on Travis, he just gassed and got caught in both fights but otherwise he's looked great. Depending on the manner in which JDS might hypothetically beat him, it would absolutely be a legit win.
[/B]

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Dillashaw's style relies a lot on movement, landing with volume and being able to maintain a strong pace over the entire fight. Naturally these are things HWs are not physically built for, as they have lower on average cardio, are not as light on their feet and as they mostly have such amazing one punch KO power volume striking isn't seen as being as effective. So again, rarely will you see a HW put on such a performance, but that has far more to do with the differences in weight class. By the same token, you won't see Dillashaw perform as many one punch KOs that you've seen JDS dish out. [/B]

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Are you being serious? JDS's defensive wrestling looked terrific in the Cain fights; he was getting destroyed because he couldn't handle Cain's pressure, not because he couldn't deal with the wrestling. Cain landed 13 out of 47 TD attempts and really struggled to keep JDS down, who was bouncing up straight back to his feet repeatedly, and this was before and after getting rocked and receiving a real beating from Cain. In the first fights there are moments where JDS is completely exhausted, can barely move, and was still popping straight back to his feet from TDs.

Carwin's also a great wrestler and he was completely unable to get JDS down or hold onto him; he's a very dangerous guy in general and JDS completely nullified his offence and gave him an absolute beating. [/B]

Carwin rarely uses his wrestling, and has a low success rate with takedowns. It's been a while since I saw that fight, but I recall him attempting only 2-3 takedowns in their fight. It's unfair to call him a "wrestler" when he doesn't fight like that. Rampage wouldn't be called a wrestler despite the fact that he has the skills on paper.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
That's pretty laughable. JDS isn't merely tough, he's abnormally tough to the point where, again, I'd say the only guy that rivals him in that area is maybe Roy Nelson.

What's also hilarious is that you're saying all fighters are tough, when the guy you're comparing him to, Barboza, is losing fights because of his relative lack of toughness. I agree, Barboza's a great striker, but he's getting caught and finished by guys who just aren't anywhere near as skilled as he is, and that's one of the reasons he isn't ranked very high in the LW division.
[/B]

That is a lie. Barboza lost to Varner in a controversial stoppage, and his only other loss is to Cerrone. He isn't Nogueira level toughness, but he isn't getting walked through.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Crocop was getting beaten by everyone which is why I wouldn't list him as a great win, but Hunt has been looking great against other competition and is even now still a great striker, and JDS solidly outclassed him.

That's simply not true, Cain has been beating guys up from every position and it's a mixture of his well roundedness, pace and aggression, and his ability to mix things up as a true mixed martial artist that is leading to him dominating the other HWs.

Cain isn't a mixture of anything. The other fighters can't deal with his wrestling, so he is allowed to pummel them. He either holds them against the cage, or takes them down then GnPs them. You keep acting like he is GSP, and he isn't.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Are you sure you're not just being unfairly critical of the HW division? You've been extremely critical of Werdum who's looked fantastic recently. Cain, JDS and Overeem all have a skill set that would absolutely make them competitive in any division. [/B]

For example, let's take Werdum(You had to get me started on him didn't you? 😛 )

Werdum is ranked #2 HW right now by UFC. He is considered the best grappler in all of the HW division......yet he lost to a ****ing middleweight in a grappling competition. Jacare is around 60lbs smaller than Werdum and repeatedly took Werdum down and controlled him. Again, this guy is considered the best grappler in his division and couldn't beat a middleweight. I know it was a long time ago, but still. I can't get that out of my head.

Originally posted by StyleTime
[B]At the same size Nate could have done similar to JDS. And again, he isn't ranked 2 in his division.

No he couldn't lol. JDS (adjusted P4P) would be way too explosive and skilled for him, he's got some of the best hand speed and power the HW division's ever seen, has a decent kicking game and moves very well for a HW. Nate Diaz is an incredibly 1 dimensional striker and it's a huge mark against Cerrone that he got dominated by him like he did.

Mark Hunt's chin was a pretty large part of his style. Losing that alone lowers his effectiveness. He wouldn't be competitive at all in other divisions though. His striking is just good enough to let him beat the lackluster, one dimensional HW strikers.

He's still got a great chin, did you not see his fight with Bigfoot? The bombs he was able to survive in both fights were absolutely vicious, and these are two of the absolute hardest hitters in MMA. JDS beat Hunt by systematically out striking him and not allowing Hunt to find his rhythm.

He got cocky in the Bigfoot fight, but the Travis fight was legitimate. He didn't gas, that was just a good front kick from Travis. We can't make excuses for him forever. I agreed it'd be a legit win if JDS beats him though. I'm saying it won't suddenly make JDS the "best striker in MMA" like you said.

Nah, Travis was throwing that kick over and over again and Overeem was clearly way too exhausted to properly defend against it. He wasted his gas tank on a beating that should have arguably been a stoppage.

Also I said one of the best strikers in MMA, which he is.

I understand the difference between HWs and smaller fighters, and what I am talking about has nothing to do with it. Technical striking is technical striking regardless of weight class. Dillashaw's footwork, head movement, and feints are lightyears above what we see in the HW division right now. And Dillashaw tops it all with KO power too.

Techniques that work are not the same regardless of weight class. HWs move at a proportionally slower rate to the speed at which they can strike, and as they also take more damage, proportionally, per strike, Dillashaw's style wouldn't be as effective at HW. Dillashaw has power but it certainly isn't HW power.

Cain's "pressure" hinges entirely upon his wrestling.

It really doesn't. In his last three fights (JDS 2 and 3 and Bigfoot 2), he either got an early finish, or quickly changed the complexion of the fight, via his striking. His wrestling alone was in no way crucial to either of those fights.

He couldn't keep JDS down, but there is more to wrestling than that, especially in MMA. JDS still got held up against the cage, taken down(even if he got up), and generally stuck to in those matches. Cain isn't GSP. He can't just stand and oustrike guys without the threat of wrestling.

I understand that, but in MMA strikers are typically nullified by wrestlers taking them down and holding them down, a la Chael Sonnen - Anderson Silva. The ability to spring back up to your feet is arguably more important than defending the TD in the first place, and JDS excels at both. True, clinch work also plays a big part in it, and this is an area of wrestling that Cain used far more effectively, but it's hardly like he simply held on to him the entire fight. The most significant moments of the fights are the big shots Cain landed, and it was largely due to his high pace and aggression and keeping JDS guessing by mixing things up.

He also isn't up against the caliber of fighters Barboza faces so...

Indeed, he's up against a higher calibre.

That is a lie. Barboza lost to Varner in a controversial stoppage, and his only other loss is to Cerrone. He isn't Nogueira level toughness, but he isn't getting walked through.

The point is that he's getting hurt, due to a combination of his chin/concentration/holes in his defence against lesser fighters. Do you not see how silly it is to complain why Barboza isn't ranked as high as JDS when he's losing to guys that aren't really all that great, whereas JDS hasn't been?

Hunt looks great because of the relative lack of competition. JDS and Cain are kings of a division still fighting like it's 15 years ago. Where ground n pound is enough to make you a top fighter. (Exaggerating a little, but you get my point. HWs are a little behind the other guys).

I'm gonna have to ask you for more evidence that the HW division is as weak as you claim at this point. It has a number of guys with proven credentials who have managed to become well rounded fighters, just like any other weight division.

Cain isn't a mixture of anything. The other fighters can't deal with his wrestling, so he is allowed to pummel them. He either holds them against the cage, or takes them down then GnPs them. You keep acting like he is GSP, and he isn't.

Which is why he finished Bigfoot with strikes in like, the second round without taking him down once. Or why the most important moments in his fights with JDS were the huge shots he was landing.

He's exactly like GSP in how he mixes things up together so well. He's better in fact.

Originally posted by StyleTime
The problem with this discussion is that it will look like I am saying the HW sucks when I am not. I just don't think they are, on the whole, as stacked as the other divisions right now.

For example, let's take Werdum(You had to get me started on him didn't you? 😛 )

Werdum is ranked #2 HW right now by UFC. He is considered the best grappler in all of the HW division......yet he lost to a ****ing middleweight in a grappling competition. Jacare is around 60lbs smaller than Werdum and repeatedly took Werdum down and controlled him. Again, this guy is considered the best grappler in his division and couldn't beat a middleweight. I know it was a long time ago, but still. I can't get that out of my head.

But you do realise that Werdum is one of the best grapplers in the world at HW, right? So are you going to say that the HW division in BJJ is weak too? Weight simply isn't as important in BJJ, guys from the lower weight classes win open weight competitions all the time, and Jacare is an absolute beast and one of the very best BJJ guys in the world. Werdum is like, literally the third most skilled BJJ guy in the UFC, it's hardly a mark against the HW division that he's its best grappler. Aside from Jacare and Maia, he's significantly better than anybody else in the UFC right now in BJJ. If anything the UFC's HW division is probably the most stacked when it comes to BJJ. Werdum, Mir, Nogueira, Nelson, Barnett and Gonzaga are all extremely high level BJJ guys.

I was going to respond but I just don't have the stamina for pages long, walls of text debating. The fact that you equated Cain to GSP means we have a lot to discuss before we ever reach some mutual understanding, and that's ignoring the discussion already at hand. I just don't have the endurance anymore.

Well, I'm sure you'll be back, (and I hope you return, you add activity to these parts)

How does everyone see Machida vs Weidman going down? I am far more unsure on this fight than I'd thought I'd be. I could see either guy winning honestly.