Yeah, apparently LS doesn't realize that TUF is AFTER Traitor.
Second, he can't prove how Jacen being one with the force would make him strong enough to defeat Yoda even if this was in TUF.
If Jacen had all the force power in the universe in his grasp, why didn't everyone else die, as life cannot exist without the force. Everyone in the galaxy should have instantly died if Jacen had the force's full power.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Yes, if it was during his lightshow then no other being in the SW universe would be capable of defeating Jacen. Otherwise Jacen loses.
Hardly. There is nothing to indicate that it made his super-uber or anything. Just strong enough to defeat Onmi, who was an untrained force-user with low potential.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Hardly. There is nothing to indicate that it made his super-uber or anything. Just strong enough to defeat Onmi, who was an untrained force-user with low potential.
If he truly was one with the force, as the book describes, then theres nothing really to it Glentract. You cant defeat the force itself...
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
If he truly was one with the force, as the book describes, then theres nothing really to it Glentract. You cant defeat the force itself...
And Yoda became "one with the force" in ROTJ. That doesn't mean that he gained all the power of the force. As mentioned, if he used all of the power of the force, everything else wouldn't exist. And again, all he did was defeat Onimi, a feat that's not all that impressive in the first place.
The line is never substantiated with any application to this fight. He still loses to Yoda.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Even if it were TUF Jacen Yoda would take him. I assume that this is Jacen at his peak in Traitor, which I believe is when he is surrounded by the Amphistaffs. Even then, I can see Yoda taking him.
Originally posted by Illustrious
And Yoda became "one with the force" in ROTJ. That doesn't mean that he gained all the power of the force. As mentioned, if he used all of the power of the force, everything else wouldn't exist. And again, all he did was defeat Onimi, a feat that's not all that impressive in the first place.The line is never substantiated with any application to this fight. He still loses to Yoda.
There's a difference between joining the force in death and becoming a pure conduit while achieving a unity with the force while you're still alive...and you;'re applying a set of logic that's obviously incorrect to the Force, it's like the god of SW, there's no true way to understand it and we know what's written: Jacen channeled the full power of the Force.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's a difference between joining the force in death and becoming a pure conduit while achieving a unity with the force while you're still alive...and you;'re applying a set of logic that's obviously incorrect to the Force, it's like the god of SW, there's no true way to understand it and we know what's written: Jacen channeled the full power of the Force.
Everyone "channels" the force. In the novelization, Luke channeled the force to draw his damn saber to him in ESB. That was effective.
The fact of the matter that both lines, "becoming one with the force" and "being a conduit of its power" are not conclusive. You can twist them around all you like, but you should argue with what's there and the logical inference thereof, not what you want there to be.
It's an easy copout to say "well, you can't understand the force, therefore I'm right."
And not every becomes one with the force while they're alive and becomes a 'pure conduit' to its raw power.
And Jacen has a two page description of what he's done. The book says in no uncertain terms Jacen achieves a sense of oneness with the Force and channe;s the entirety of its power. He even realizes he is one with everything. He connects with everything in the galaxy on a molecular level, goes beyond life and death, good and evil, eels his consciousness strewn to every living thing in the galaxy and wields the entire power of the force as one.
Originally posted by Illustrious
And Yoda became "one with the force" in ROTJ. That doesn't mean that he gained all the power of the force. As mentioned, if he used all of the power of the force, everything else wouldn't exist. And again, all he did was defeat Onimi, a feat that's not all that impressive in the first place.The line is never substantiated with any application to this fight. He still loses to Yoda.
Erm, read the book.
It describes in detail what happened, Jacen became a conduit to the force itself, which is how it acted its will(to destroy Omni and end the Vong threat). Yoda simply died and became part of the force, it isnt the same as having the force act its will.
"As mentioned, if he used all of the power of the force, everything else wouldn't exist."
O RLY? What is the basis of that observation? Jacen had no need to use the *full* power of the force, only what was needed to defeat Onimi.
I never disagreed Jacen loses to Yoda, unless Jacen just so happens to be in his *lightshow* form.