The System of the United States of America

Originally posted by Darth Macabre
Figured as much.

On to your question...The people are manipulated into thinking that their vote counts when it doesn't...The manipulators keep the facade of a democracy going, even though the people they want will win no matter what the vote count is....Therefore, to the people, it might look like a democracy, but in truth it's not.

Hmm what evidence do you have for that claim?

I mean I can understand being pissed at the 2000 election. But except for that, what implies this?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Hmm what evidence do you have for that claim?

I mean I can understand being pissed at the 2000 election. But except for that, what implies this?

Oh, I wasn't saying that about the U.S....I was just agreeing that in situations, it depends on which side you are.

But Capt. Fantastic....What evidence do you have?

Bradock, you are totally ignoring the system of states that operate under the federal government. Those are not in any form of democracy.

You are totally ignoring the US constitution. Constitutions are not present in any form of democracy.

Again, you could get off saying several things in the US are like a representative democracy: the elections, the states, but the federal government is clearly NOT.

Originally posted by Alliance
Bradock, you are totally ignoring the system of states that operate under the federal government. Those are not in any form of democracy.

You are totally ignoring the US constitution. Constitutions are not present in any form of democracy.

Again, you could get off saying several things in the US are like a representative democracy: the elections, the states, but the federal government is clearly NOT.

Explain.

Good Lord, I don't see how people can make this so obscure.

The US is readily defined as a representative Democracy. That makes it a Democracy. The definition is contaiied within there. It is plain. In the modern day, a representative Government is an example of a Democracy. No, not of being democratic. The dictionary makes it clear. Of being a Democracy.

Alliance and Janus are closing the ears to the facts- to the facts that they are ignoring dictionary definitions, and the way the word is used in the world today.

The European Governments are self-declared democracies. Not a damn thing either of you two, or any of your teachers say, has the right to say that they are wrong. Frankly, I trust those statements a heck of a lot more than I trust yours, based entirely on your inability to see plain facts as demonstrated in this thread. How you can run away from those dictionary definitions is beyond me. They do not simply describe democratic tendencies. They directly, and plainly, identify a system where people elect representatives as being a Democracy. There is no room for menoeuvre there.

Let me make this clear- the political definition of democracy is not in any way fixed down to direct rule by people. Not in the slightest, tiniest amount.

And once the whole rest of the world has moved on and is using the word Democracy in the way it is used today, are you two still going to cling to your tiny, narrow definition, claiming the entire world is wrong whilst you are right?

Contemptible.

Oh, and Rome a Democracy? HAHAHAHAHAHA! The representatives who actually wieleded legislative and executive power were elected by a restricted mandate. That is NOT Democracy, no matter what smaller offices could be elected so. And incidentall, what about the slaves, hmm? A vast class of the population of the country, who couldn't vote at all. That's democratic? And you are doing History? That causes me serious worries, I must say.

Originally posted by Alliance

You are totally ignoring the US constitution. Constitutions are not present in any form of democracy..

Well, the CIA factbook you like to quote makes plenty of mentions of countries being Constitutional Democracies, so where does that leave your argument?

Fact is, your statement that Democracies cannot have Constitutions is bullshit.

Why don’t you look at facts Ush. Geezz.

1. Your definition does apply to SOME aspects of the US government. The dictionary does not provide the most ACCURATE definition of the US government. Of course the definition applies to some aspects, the US has a democratic system, but for the reasons outlined above, its NOT a democracy. If you’re so correct, back it up with more than an inadequate definition.

2. I HAVE NEVER ARGUED THAT THE ONLY FORM OF DEMOCRACY IS DIRECT DEMOCRACY. Please stop saying that. I know what different types of democracies are. Get over it.

3. The US is a self declared “constitutional based federal republic; strong democratic traditions” Not a thing that you say is going to change that. EVER. Many European governments are not self proclaimed democracys. If you think they are, I want proof such as I have provided. If you say that “I trust those statements a heck of a lot more than I trust yours” then you have NO right to argue because the US government defined what it was.
4. The modern definition of democracy still does not make the US a democracy. I know what the definition is. It does not define the US as a democracy (modern form).

5. Whole world? Please. You two are the only people I know who claim the US is a democracy (any form). You say the opinions of our acquaintances don’t matter? Yeah. OK. Too bad your opinion of the rest of the world is mistaken.

6. And who said Rome was a democracy? WHAT? Do you even read our posts accurately?

PWNED!

from www.dictionary.com Entry: federal republic

"Main Entry: federal republic
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: a form of government made up of a federal state with a constitution and self-governing subunits
Example: The United States of America is a federal republic on the continent of North America. "

Now, your own source that you're using to define a democracy gives the US as an example of a federal republic. Now, PLEASE tell me how Janus and I are wrong.

Originally posted by Alliance
PWNED!

from www.dictionary.com Entry: federal republic

"[b]Main Entry: federal republic
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: a form of government made up of a federal state with a constitution and self-governing subunits
Example: The United States of America is a federal republic on the continent of North America. "

Now, your own source that you're using to define a democracy gives the US as an example of a federal republic. Now, PLEASE tell me how Janus and I are wrong. [/B]

Wait, how is something that we claimed all along pawning us?

blowup

The United States is not a democracy, its a federal republic, more specifically, a constitution based federal republic with strong democratic traditions as defined by the US governmnet

Originally posted by Alliance
PWNED!

from www.dictionary.com Entry: federal republic

"[b]Main Entry: federal republic
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: a form of government made up of a federal state with a constitution and self-governing subunits
Example: The United States of America is a federal republic on the continent of North America. "

Now, your own source that you're using to define a democracy gives the US as an example of a federal republic. Now, PLEASE tell me how Janus and I are wrong. [/B]

Going by their literal meanings the United States is both a democracy and a federal republic.

Can you move on now?

Originally posted by Alliance
blowup

The United States is not a democracy, its a federal republic, more specifically, a constitution based federal republic with strong democratic traditions as defined by the US governmnet

Both. What the hell. You seem to think that for some reason a Republic cannot be a Democracy. Why can't you understand that both applies?

Originally posted by Eis
Ironic how you claim pwnage from a dictionary.com quote when Bardock has repeatedly posted the definition of democracy from that same website and all it does is help his case.

All Bardock has done is extend his definition to the US. If the US is a democracy? Why is it not defined as such?

The US has one government. ONE. It is a federal republic. The only reason that the definition "applies" is because elements of the government are democratic. As I have said repeatedly, that does not make it a democracy.

I have multiple credible sources defining the US government and stating specifically that the US government is "a constitutionally based federal republic; stong democratic traditions" Bardock, Ush, and Eis have not provided anything except thier interpretation of a definition.

No one claiming it is a democracy has provided evidence beyond hersey and thier own opinion. If you want to convince me, you need to explain the following things:

1. The US constitution.
2. Fifty semi-autonomous states existing underneath the US government.
3. The lack of a definition or other sources defining or referencing the US as some sort of democracy.
4. Why the US defines itself as a "constitution based federal republic; strong democratic traditions"
5. How one nation can have two national governments, one being a form of democracy and one being a republic.

If someone can give me evidence adressing those four issues, I'll be convinced that the US is both a form of democracy and a federal republic. Until then, since I am the only one with direct evidence, I belive I have made my point.

And I apologize for getting a bit ticked off.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No seriously...I happen to live in a Democracy. And a Republic...so that at least is bullshit. We might continue to argue about the US system...but The Federal Republic of Germany is in fact a Democracy and a Republic. TO nouns...no doubt about it...whatever your CIA says ....

HELLO! The name of your country is the FEDERAL REPUBLIC of Germany. Its not the federal republic and a democracy of Germany.

On the German Government:"Quickfacts: Government

Type: democratic, federal, multi-party republic with representatives chosen directly by the people." - German Embassy

There, your government says what it is. I don't see "democracy" in there.

And perhaps this should be kept in this thread...

Originally posted by Alliance
HELLO! The name of your country is the FEDERAL REPUBLIC of Germany. Its not the federal republic and a democracy of Germany.

On the German Government:"[b]Quickfacts: Government

Type: democratic, federal, multi-party republic with representatives chosen directly by the people." - German Embassy

There, your government says what it is. I don't see "democracy" in there.

And perhaps this should be kept in this thread... [/B]

But you remember that something that is "democratic" is in fact a democracy, don't you?

NO. Its is not. Saying something is life-like doesn't not mean its alive. More often, someththing described as life-like is not alive because, if it were alive, it would be described as alive. Saying something is democratic does not mean its a democracy.

Look. It says its a republic. If you can find a credible source (some sort of official government position) that says that either Germany or the US is a democracy, I'll reconsider your argument again.

Until then, please stop making arguments because you have opinions that contradict clear fact.

Originally posted by Alliance
Why don’t you look at facts Ush. Geezz.

1. Your definition does apply to SOME aspects of the US government. The dictionary does not provide the most ACCURATE definition of the US government. Of course the definition applies to some aspects, the US has a democratic system, but for the reasons outlined above, its NOT a democracy. If you’re so correct, back it up with more than an inadequate definition.

2. I HAVE NEVER ARGUED THAT THE ONLY FORM OF DEMOCRACY IS DIRECT DEMOCRACY. Please stop saying that. I know what different types of democracies are. Get over it.

3. The US is a self declared “constitutional based federal republic; strong democratic traditions” Not a thing that you say is going to change that. EVER. Many European governments are not self proclaimed democracys. If you think they are, I want proof such as I have provided. If you say that “I trust those statements a heck of a lot more than I trust yours” then you have NO right to argue because the US government defined what it was.
4. The modern definition of democracy still does not make the US a democracy. I know what the definition is. It does not define the US as a democracy (modern form).

5. Whole world? Please. You two are the only people I know who claim the US is a democracy (any form). You say the opinions of our acquaintances don’t matter? Yeah. OK. Too bad your opinion of the rest of the world is mistaken.

6. And who said Rome was a democracy? WHAT? Do you even read our posts accurately?

1. Lie. It does not allude to some parts. It directly and umabiguously defines the system the US fits into as being a Democracy.

2. Several times it has been said that the US is not a Democracy because it is not a direct Democracy, and that only if it were direct would it be so. hence, you have claimed exactly that. The US is not a direct Democracy. But it is still a Democracy, as defined in the dictionary.

3. You mean the factbook says that. But aside from anything else, the factbook contradicts much of what you say, and you choose not to addreess that. With no consistency of source, there will be no respect for your opinion there. Furthermore, you are continuing to argue for exclusivity there, saying that just because the US is a Federal Republic, it cannot also be a Democracy. Nonsense! Show me the rule that says that.

4. Clearly you do not know it. The dictionary- pretty much ALL dictionaries- disagrees with you.

5. Keep your eyes and ears shut if you wish. But I think you will find that opinion, combined wuth the grammatical meaning of the word, is of the opinion that the US is a democracy- a view shared by your own Immigration service, another fact you choose to ignore whilst blindly clinging to your one source, which in turn you continually ignore the parts within that contradict you. The same way you haven't even begun to address the matters raised by my source I gave in favour of this point of view. Your selective nature betrays your poor position.

6. Janus clearly said that by our logic, Rome was a Democracy. We were kindly explaining why that was crap.

By a very large margin, the person who is contradiction of clear fact- is you, Alliance. And the world left you behind long ago.

As for examples- well, the UK clearly defines itself as the oldest parliamentary democracy in the world

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2000/parliament/default.stm

But oh no! You say it can't be that because your factbook thinks it is a Constituional Monarchy and that alone, despite the fact that those words are USELESS for explaining what the UK actually is.

Obvious bilge.

Other examples? Australia is a Parliamentary Democracy, and would continue to be so if they got rid of the Queen. Having a Queen or not has nothing to do with whether you are a parliamentary democracy or not. Yet if they did that, they would ALSO be a Republic, because getting rid of the Queen as soveriegn makes you a Republic. Right now, like all the UK, they are both Constitutional Monarchy and Parliamentary Democracy. Without the Queen, they would be both Republic and Parliamentary Democracy.. All these facts are easy to check and look up online. Same applies to New Zealand and Canada.

Your position depends on a large amount of gibberish, basically.

From your precious factbook, Alliance:

-

"CANADA

Government type: A constitutional monarchy that is also a parliamentary democracy and a federation "

-

OH MY GOD! It is saying that Canada is more than one thing! Burn it!

And here is a link that people would do well to read.

http://www.dadalos.org/int/Demokratie/Demokratie/Grundkurs1/Material/typen.htm

Ush: Please think rationally for a moment.

1. Your simple dictionary.com defition does NOT directly and unabiguously define the US as a democracy. It does not say "The United States is an axample of (insert your favorite type of democracy here). It DOES say )under the entry for Federal Republic [The United States of America is a federal republic on the continent of North America. THAT is direct and unambigous. I have yet to find a credible dictionary that defines the US (thorugh example or defintion) as any type of democracy.

2. I hae never stated that the only form of democracy is direct democracy. I don't belive that. End of discussion.

3. As a general rule in the English language, objects are not defined by more than one noun. I would think this would be obvious... However, this brings me to...

Point whatever.

You are clinging to the blind position that democracy describes everything that moves. At least I have been using government sources and direct defintions instead of defintions that i APPLY (because that is what you have been doing) to another concept.

Now, congratulations on actually making points. The factbook is precious, because it is a real credible source that actually proves my point. I did not read the government of every country, and you have found a valid contradiction in my argument.

(this is why I wanted to debate the US system of government, because I know it inside out)

From the British Embassy: "The United Kingdom is a parliamentary democracy with a constitutional monarchy."

This contrdicts what the CIA says the UK is. I suggest that if it really upsets you, you contact your government or the CIA and request that they change the entry. I'm sure they'd be happy to record the phone conversation as well...

In light of this development (WOW, FACTS were presented) and the fact that the CIA can also define a governmetn (ie Canada) as having two systems. I concede that if two branches of government are sperate enough (both cases (UK and Canada) are a parliamentary democracy with a constitutional monarchy) two nouns can be used to describe a national government.

Now, I hope this does more to convince you that I am not afactual and ignorant. I argue real positions based on EVIDENCE.

- - - - -

Staying on topic of the thread, I am still inconvinced that the US is what you claim: a republic and a democracy.

If these holes can be closed: I'd be convinced that the US could be considered a democracy. Explain how this works including

1. The US constitution.

2. Fifty semi-autonomous states existing underneath the US government.

3. The lack of a definition or other sources defining or referencing the US as some sort of democracy.

4. Why the US defines itself as a "constitution based federal republic; strong democratic traditions"

5. How the US can have two nowns describing its one integrated federal system.