DE Luke versus Mace Windu

Started by Borbarad9 pages
Originally posted by Janus Marius
This is true Ymir was huge. What became of the cow, btw? I don't recall where it went.

Auðumbla is never mentioned again in the source material. It's just known that Ymir did drink her milk and she licked ice blocks thereby discovering the first man called Búri.


But keep in mind, Greek Gods were immortal... While Norse Gods were just extremely long-lived super humans.

Norse Gods were immortal too at least they could only get killed by violence (Balder) and otherwise lived from the beginning of the world to it's end. Same is the case with the Greek Gods. For example Ares did kill Hallihourthus, one of Poseidon's sons and he was wounded during the Trojan war himself, when Diomedes threw a spear through his body.

The concept of "immortal" gods that can't be killed and wounded is quite unknown in mythology. I guess it would spoil much of the fun. 😉

Was it ever confirmed how Odin and his brothers killed Ymir? Big battle, caught him sleeping, what?

Though, Nai...in the Greek hierarchy, weren't Gods incapable of being killed? The Norse gods, at least, could be killed by other divine figures...unlike the Greeks, the Norse had a big end of the world myth...

Why not bring up the Egyptian Gods while we're at it. I would love to see Odin vs. Anubis.

Anubis was in no way a warrior

No but he was the death God...

Actually, Osiris was the big mack daddy there

All I can say about this talk about gods is what about Jesus? I'd have to say being able to instantly summon more Angels then there is sand on the beaches pretty much outdoes either Thor or Zeus.

On topic:

Luke gained most of his power after establishing his Academy on Yavin 4 and before that he was quite untrained. Jorus / Joruus who was clearly a PT Jedi not on Mace Windu's level outclassed him one year before DE and Sidious - who was beaten by Mace in a lightsaber duel - managed to disarm Luke in their first lightsaber fight in DE.

Keep in mind that Joruus isn't the same guy as the one that was in the PT-era. The Jorus that was inferior to Mace had less then 20 years of training if I remember correctly, yet he was still the Supreme Chancellor's Jedi adviser. I doubt that's a position giving to an average Jedi, especially one who had been a Jedi for such a little time, probably not much more then a decade).

Further proof that Joruus was more powerful then Jorus is the fact that Joruus was able to control tens of thousands of minds at one time. I strongly doubt Mace's force power ever came even near that. I doubt Yoda had force power on that level either. As you might now guess, Luke being weaker then Joruus doesn't mean that he definately isn't as strong as Mace.

I agree that Mace is a better fighter then ROTS Sidious, but remember that ROTS Sidious had only been able to practice the force for short periods of time for that last 13 years and hadn't touched his lightsaber in over a decade as it had been encased in a statue to hide it. Remember how Leia was only able to spend an hour or two per month training to be a Jedi when she was Chief of State. The same was probably true for Palpatine during that 13 year time. By DE, Sidious has an additional 25 years of training, a superior body, and a much greater access to knowledge. As with Joruus, Luke having lost to him at one time doesn't prove him weaker than Mace.

Also note that it was their first lightsaber duel that Luke lost. I'm guessing that this is Luke near or at the end of the DE series, as when we refer to NJO Luke we usually mean in TUF, not the first book in the series. I'm not totally sure, but I remember hearing that Luke later cut off Sidious' hand in lightsaber fight. I think you can guess what the implications of that may be.

Now add that Mace has far more force control compared to Luke and was a lightsaber prodigy on his own. Add some years of actual (lightsaber) battle experience on Mace's side and his unique Shatterpoint ability and Luke would get owned pretty much.

What is your basis for Mace having far more force control then Luke? I believe that Luke was able to permanetly cloak a planet with the force (The Courtship of Princess Leia) by this point, something that I can imagine taking a very large amount of power to do. I doubt we've seen Mace do anything on this level.

Luke also has a large amount of battle experince. The only person Luke has fought lightsaber against lightsaber in real combat is Sidious unless I am forgetting someone. Luke has fought Vader and Sidious. Plus he has fought them on multiple occasions. I'm not saying that Luke has more experince then Mace, but I don't believe that he is outclassed as far as you say.

Mace does have quite an advantage in his shatterpoint ability though. Then again Luke has a big advantage in his physical strength. He defeated a HRD in unarmed combat (Shadows of the Empire) and in ROTJ you can see him overpower Vader in a saber lock. The raw strength in his form would prove dificult to cope with and is a possible counter for Mace's shatterpoint ability.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, Osiris was the big mack daddy there

I thought Ra was in charge.

I meant of the Underworld

bump

Did luke ever maste vaapad, and how do you even pronounce vaapad

I don't think Luke even learned Vaapad

He probably knows about Juyo, but not Vaapad. He's a Djem So user.

I pronounce it "Va - Pad"

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Keep in mind that Joruus isn't the same guy as the one that was in the PT-era. The Jorus that was inferior to Mace had less then 20 years of training if I remember correctly, yet he was still the Supreme Chancellor's Jedi adviser. I doubt that's a position giving to an average Jedi, especially one who had been a Jedi for such a little time, probably not much more then a decade).

What ? He was Sidious personal advisior when Sidious was a Senator meaning until 32 BBY at max. And since he was born in 70 BBY he most likely took that position when he was more than 30 years old. And obviously he wasn't part of the Jedi Council so he isn't that special...
Also notice that the main contact of the Jedi Council to the Supreme Chancelor was Mace himself, not Jorus.


Further proof that Joruus was more powerful then Jorus is the fact that Joruus was able to control tens of thousands of minds at one time. I strongly doubt Mace's force power ever came even near that. I doubt Yoda had force power on that level either. As you might now guess, Luke being weaker then Joruus doesn't mean that he definately isn't as strong as Mace.

You simply ignore the effects of Dark Side use. Sidious was able to keep an entire planet population (Byss) under control and this is the guy who Dooku thought would get destroyed by a Dark Side Yoda.


Also note that it was their first lightsaber duel that Luke lost.

Did you watch ESB ? 😛


I'm guessing that this is Luke near or at the end of the DE series, as when we refer to NJO Luke we usually mean in TUF, not the first book in the series. I'm not totally sure, but I remember hearing that Luke later cut off Sidious' hand in lightsaber fight. I think you can guess what the implications of that may be.

He did cut off Sidious hand in a lightsaber fight but he had help from Leia at this point (probably using a basic version of battle meditation). And Luke in the first NJO book still had 15 years of training advantage compared to his DE self, not even mentioning his actual combat experience (fights against former students, the Calista trilogy, the Black Fleet crisis) and his additional knowledge gaining.


What is your basis for Mace having far more force control then Luke?

The simple fact that Mace had 5 times the training time and a more formal training compared to Luke, not even talking about far more battle experience when it came to the "jedi way" of fighting (force use, lightsaber combat).


I believe that Luke was able to permanetly cloak a planet with the force (The Courtship of Princess Leia) by this point, something that I can imagine taking a very large amount of power to do. I doubt we've seen Mace do anything on this level.

First Luke did that after the DE comics (Black Fleet trilogy - 16 ABY) and he manipulated the force directly creating a sort of "loop" in it. The amount of actual force energy needed to do that is unknown since it's based on an entire different philosophy of force used compare to the one the Jedi have.


Luke also has a large amount of battle experince. The only person Luke has fought lightsaber against lightsaber in real combat is Sidious unless I am forgetting someone. Luke has fought Vader and Sidious. Plus he has fought them on multiple occasions. I'm not saying that Luke has more experince then Mace, but I don't believe that he is outclassed as far as you say.

He did fight Vader two times (three if you include SotME) and Sidious two times. Then you have him facing Luuke, Joruus and Mara Jade and that is what with lightsaber combat / confronting force users (in the time of DE).
Mace confronted Dooku, Grievous, Depa, Kar Vastor, Quinlan Vos, 3 of Dooku's Dark Acolytes and Sidious. Not to mention that he used to duel with Yoda and Dooku as both have bested him.


Mace does have quite an advantage in his shatterpoint ability though. Then again Luke has a big advantage in his physical strength. He defeated a HRD in unarmed combat (Shadows of the Empire) and in ROTJ you can see him overpower Vader in a saber lock. The raw strength in his form would prove dificult to cope with and is a possible counter for Mace's shatterpoint ability.

Yes...I'm perfectly sure that Luke has a superior strength compared to the guy who could compete with Kar Vastor in unarmed combat, hammered through durasteel battle droids with his bare hands and was trained in melee combat (armed and unarmed) for his entire life. I really doubt it.

Good post

One thing: Leia provided zero support or help whatsoever during the duel with Sidious. Luke had the edge because he fought harder realizing if he died, Sidious would gain possession of Leia and her unborn child

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One thing: Leia provided zero support or help whatsoever during the duel with Sidious. Luke had the edge because he fought harder realizing if he died, Sidious would gain possession of Leia and her unborn child

You can see her meditating in the background and Luke did teach her battle meditation before. I really don't see the point why Luke should have fought harder than in the fight when he clearly wanted to kill Sidious. Notice how he doesn't kill him after having disarmed him.

And Sidious says he's through playing 'Jedi Dueling games'...Jedi don't tend to follow up a Cho Mai with a decapitating stroke. Leia does nothing but watch in the duel, according to the sourcebook

And the sourcebook is less canon than the comic itself, which shows Leia using an elementary form of Jedi Meditation.. Thank you for playing.

Actually, it shows her watching, troll boy. There's nothing saying she's using battle meditation...wasn't the first time BM was even identified Dark Empire 2 anyways?