Originally posted by DarkSaint85The thread was created in 2006. This is pre-Flashpoint BA/UM.
Nah. IF Mazahs is anything to go by, UM was stronger:
Originally posted by zopzopSuperman has a long history of overcoming Ultraman, dating all the way back to the Silver Age. Hell, J'onn has tooled Ultraman as well.
I don't see how BA survives, much less wins, a fight vs a serious UM.
Given his history, to say that BA couldn't even survive a fight against Ultraman demonstrates a pretty gross ignorance of their respective feats.
Originally posted by Galan007
The thread was created in 2006. This is pre-Flashpoint BA/UM.Superman has a long history of overcoming Ultraman, dating all the way back to the Silver Age. Hell, J'onn has tooled Ultraman as well.
Given his history, to say that BA couldn't even survive a fight against Ultraman demonstrates a pretty gross ignorance of their respective feats.
Superman actually broke a knuckle punching Ultraman in AOS 6039
Originally posted by abhilegendSupes was also swatting Ultraman all over the place in AoS #604-605. He was clearly superior.
Uh, no. The only two times Superman has beaten Ultraman clean pre crisis or post crisis are All star squadron 15 and in Trinity.
Originally posted by abhilegend*604
Superman actually broke a knuckle punching Ultraman in AOS 6039
Originally posted by Galan007
True. That's why I think this would be closer to a stalemate then anything.Near-identical stats. Same vicious mentality.
On the other hand, it never has to be close, and this is one of those times that PIS could work in favor of one character, while working against the other. If we follow the character's personalities, UM could HV his eyes shut, or possibly blind him (he's a vicious version of Superman). This would allow him to pick his shots, and make each one count. With guys of this caliber, it wouldn't take long at all for what I said could happen, to happen. Think of how functional both would be in a real time setting.
However, if Adam can outfight him he should win. I can't seem to give him the odds of taking Ultraman though. It would be so easy for UM to dominate this from the very start.
Originally posted by Galan007
Supes was also swatting Ultraman all over the place in AoS #604-605. He was clearly superior.*604
Bottom line is Ultraman can actually beat Superman. Neither Cap nor Adam have done that, despite their magical advantages.
Originally posted by abhilegendSo despite the fact that Superman has looked demonstrably superior to Ultraman in almost all of their encounters over the years(aside from one), yet has never managed more than a stalemate against BA, you think Ultraman wins?
Bottom line is Ultraman can actually beat Superman. Neither Cap nor Adam have done that, despite their magical advantages.
Sorry, but I just can't get behind that logic. By all rights, this should be a stalemate.
attrition will win out in the end for one or the other though, no? not sure who would have the better damage soak if it came to an battle of attrition, but, assuming UM IS an equal to kal, i'd give it ultimately to him more often than not. especially with the added advantage of the vision powers.
and no one ever answered my question with regards to magic vs UM. no evidence either way i assume...?
Originally posted by Galan007
So despite the fact that Superman has looked demonstrably superior to Ultraman in almost all of their encounters over the years(aside from one), yet has never managed more than a stalemate against BA, you think Ultraman wins?Sorry, but I just can't get behind that logic. By all rights, this should be a stalemate.
Heck, he looked absolutely equal to Superman in Final Crisis.
What fights we have left where Superman looked superior though?
And Superman and Adam have fought two times post crisis. Not enough to gauge his level to Superman's since Superman was actively holding back.
Put it this way, the biggest Black Adam fanboy ever Geoff Johns had Ultraman crush Adam like he was a baby
Originally posted by leonidas
attrition will win out in the end for one or the other though, no? not sure who would have the better damage soak if it came to an battle of attrition, but, assuming UM IS an equal to kal, i'd give it ultimately to him more often than not. especially with the added advantage of the vision powers.and no one ever answered my question with regards to magic vs UM. no evidence either way i assume...?
Originally posted by abhilegendThis?:
What fights we have left where Superman looked superior though?
Along with AoS #604-605, like I mentioned earlier.
Originally posted by abhilegendDon't care what happened post-Flashpoint. That isn't what is being debated.
Put it this way, the biggest Black Adam fanboy ever Geoff Johns had Ultraman crush Adam like he was a baby
Originally posted by abhilegendSilver Age showings are equally as irrelevant.
He has never been weak to magic. Actually no sold silver age Dr. Fate and oneshotted him.
Originally posted by Galan007
This?:
Along with AoS #604-605, like I mentioned earlier.
Don't care what happened post-Flashpoint. That isn't what is being debated.
Silver Age showings are equally as irrelevant.
Can you post their fight in Brave and the bold 11? That's a personal favorite and I think most people haven't seen that fight.
So it's 1 win, 1 loss and a bunch of draws between Superman and Ultraman. Looks better than Cap and Adam' records combined against Superman
my issue with using superman for adam is that they've never REALLY settled things between them. that's my ONLY issue with adam in general. how many clean wins does he have vs billy, and how many times has billy beaten him? adam rarely seems to have good, 1 on 1 match ups where both he and his opponent are both going all out to full capacity--it's what i was getting at in the wonder woman thread. who are his great 1 on 1 battles against.....? i remember some good ones vs billy, but i can't recall too many others that he's had...
Originally posted by abhilegendHe still beat the tar out of Ultraman+the Crime Syndicate rather easily. That is ridiculously impressive.
That's superman beating him with his skills as he explicitly States. Under the same writer Ultraman beat him cleanly.
Originally posted by abhilegendHere's that:
Can you post their fight in Brave and the bold 11? That's a personal favorite and I think most people haven't seen that fight.
...Though I don't really know if I'd call that a fight in the typical sense, given that, eh, no punches were thrown. Though Mix did have to tell Superman to let Ultraman up at the end(implying that Ulty was being overpowered)... 😖hifty:
Originally posted by abhilegendWell, you also agreed that Superman came out of AoS clearly looking better than Ultraman.
So it's 1 win, 1 loss and a bunch of draws between Superman and Ultraman.
Look, I'm not saying that Superman is more powerful than Ultraman--they're obviously peers. I'm just saying that Superman almost always comes out looking better one way or another. While their encounters might be more limited, Superman has still never managed more than a stalemate against BA.
So tack the fact that BA and Supes are peers, onto the fact that magic seems to have a negative effect on Ulty, and I certainly think BA can at least manage a stalemate. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
He still beat the tar out of Ultraman+the Crime Syndicate rather easily. That is ridiculously impressive....Though I don't really know if I'd call that a fight in the typical sense, given that, eh, no punches were thrown. Though Mix did have to tell Superman to let Ultraman up at the end(implying that Ulty was being overpowered)... 😖hifty:
Well, you also agreed that Superman came out of AoS clearly looking better than Ultraman.
Look, I'm not saying that Superman is more powerful than Ultraman--they're obviously peers. I'm just saying that Superman almost always comes out looking better one way or another. While their encounters might be more limited, Superman has still never managed more than a stalemate against BA.
So tack the fact that BA and Supes are peers, onto the fact that magic seems to have a negative effect on Ulty, and I certainly think BA can at least manage a stalemate. /shrug
Superman simply knows how to fight better. He also knows exactly how much he can take; so there is a large chance that he would pull his punches against Adam, opposed to a mirror image of himself
that lacks his superior combat expertise. If Adam lays into him; and has the ability to dictate the fight by never taking hard clean hits, while laying down his own, he'd punch his lights out. The strength disparity between the two, isn't so great that UM wouldn't feel Adam's punches. However, is there any hard proof that Adam is a better fighter than UM? The answer to that question, would make a world of difference.
