Lucifer vs. Spectre.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Presence/Yahweh (same) are not flawed at all. God already told both Michael and Lucifer a big secret. Telling them everything has been thought out thousands and thousands of times in his head way before everything was created, and everything happened the way he wanted it to happen. Even now when in the Lucifer comic Lucifer KNOWS now that God leaving is a part of "The Great Plan", and if there is no plan like rit now then it as well is a part of "The Great Plan". The only thing he left out which God even said is almost impossible is not knowing who will defend Creation and who will be the person against it being allowed to live (with God being the judge), he wanted a tiny piece of randomness in his plan. Also everything in Creation is God anyway, its a part of a dream he dreamt up so that he would sorta not be alone. 😎

Originally posted by kevdude
The Presence/Yahweh (same) are not flawed at all. God already told both Michael and Lucifer a big secret. Telling them everything has been thought out thousands and thousands of times in his head way before everything was created, and everything happened the way he wanted it to happen. Even now when in the Lucifer comic Lucifer KNOWS now that God leaving is a part of "The Great Plan", and if there is no plan like rit now then it as well is a part of "The Great Plan". The only thing he left out which God even said is almost impossible is not knowing who will defend Creation and who will be the person against it being allowed to live (with God being the judge), he wanted a tiny piece of randomness in his plan. Also everything in Creation is God anyway, its a part of a dream he dreamt up so that he would sorta not be alone. 😎

That makes a lot of sense, and sort of reminds me of the original Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos Quest myth where taht infinite being tried to create more than himself, so he wouldn't be alone. Pretty cool stuff.

However I still beleive Yahweh is a flawed being and here's why.

He said he was DISsatisfied with current existance. It was not pleasing him. That "Great Plan" must have been re done over and over. If that's the case, then how was his plan perfect ?

I understand your point about letting there be some randomness to prevent his boredom. And i understand your point about him trying to prevent being lonely.

I would say point taken, except for this: A being who is EFFECTED by boredom and loneliness is imperfect. Those states of mind are too human, and although may logically belong to a SUPREME BEING with truly infinite power, those states of mind would NOT belong to a PERFECT and COMPLETE BEING with no need for further perfection.

Originally posted by Juntai
It's all part of the plan..

LOL sorry bro..that made me crack up i duno y

Yahweh created the ideas of perfect and imperfect in that universe, in fact, he created every ideal, concept and realm, and everything in between. Those ideals cannot be applied to him. Needless to say you could never comprehend the will or intention of God. He says himself that it is all according to plan. That's all you need to know.

created the ideas of perfect and imperfect in that universe, in fact, he created every ideal, concept and realm, and everything in between. Those ideals cannot be applied to him. Needless to say you could never comprehend the will or intention of God. He says himself that it is all according to plan. That's all you need to know.

There we go again. Which God are you talking about ? The God you beleive in, or the God in DC?

I don't care about what version of God you beleive in, that's your personal beleif, but the God in DC is flawed for the reasons i stated before, and you didnt address each reason.

Why can't you just answer the questions and address EACH claim i made instead of simplifying your conclusion by saying "GOD IS ABOVE YOUR UNDERSTANDING..deal with it"

its a DESPERATE response. Just address and counter my claims i made, then i will take your point seriously.

Don't dismiss my argument as "well your will against God's is nothing, so stop arguing"

Yahweh the COMIC BOOK character ...thats all he is. You cannot expect me to BUY into your last sentence. No comic book character is above the writers or readers, simply because WE EXIST and they don't.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B]created the ideas of perfect and imperfect in that universe, in fact, he created every ideal, concept and realm, and everything in between. Those ideals cannot be applied to him. Needless to say you could never comprehend the will or intention of God. He says himself that it is all according to plan. That's all you need to know.

There we go again. Which God are you talking about ? The God you beleive in, or the God in DC?

I don't care about what version of God you beleive in, that's your personal beleif, but the God in DC is flawed for the reasons i stated before, and you didnt address each reason.

Why can't you just answer the questions and address EACH claim i made instead of simplifying your conclusion by saying "GOD IS ABOVE YOUR UNDERSTANDING..deal with it"

its a DESPERATE response. Just address and counter my claims i made, then i will take your point seriously.

Don't dismiss my argument as "well your will against God's is nothing, so stop arguing"

Yahweh the COMIC BOOK character ...thats all he is. You cannot expect me to BUY into your last sentence. No comic book character is above the writers or readers, simply because WE EXIST and they don't. [/B]

I don't believe he was dissatisfied with how everything was turning out. He was very careful not to say to much during his discussion with Elaine and Lilith about what he should do with creation (even though he already knows whats going to happen, he just wants them to do it themselves, thats why he gave them free will). Also The Presence/Yahweh DC God is the same as Vergito God. Also is above everyone in DC and is not a comic book character, at least thats how it seems DC/Vergito has it set up.

[You mean Yahweh in Vertigo? You keep saying DC's god is flawed. DC's god isn't a character at all. I own the entire Lucifer series up to issue 72, I think I've got a better interpretation of it then you. In Vertigo, Yahweh created everything, he created the POSSIBILITY for everything. He created the concepts. Everything I said is true]

In terms of Vertigo/DC, I have to admit that's my mistake. I was caught up in my thoughts, I MEANT Vertigo's God. Dc doesn't have a "God" it has a supreme force.

You PROBABLY DO have a better intepretation than I do, but ARGUE it then...you're not doing that. Why can't you ATTACK my individual points bro? You are simplifying you're argument by saying that he is a Supreme Being and therefore perfect, and I shouldn't question that.

Untrue...I have every right as reader and debator to question anything I want.

I really feel you are confusing Vertigo's God with your own. To tell me that I as a READER and an EXISTING human being could never comprehend or judge the will and structure of a COMIC BOOK CHARACTER is unrealistic....

I made numerous points for why I think what, PLEASE ADDRESS THEM individually if you want to convince me of anything.

Thank you

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B][You mean Yahweh in Vertigo? You keep saying DC's god is flawed. DC's god isn't a character at all. I own the entire Lucifer series up to issue 72, I think I've got a better interpretation of it then you. In Vertigo, Yahweh created everything, he created the POSSIBILITY for everything. He created the concepts. Everything I said is true]

In terms of Vertigo/DC, I have to admit that's my mistake. I was caught up in my thoughts, I MEANT Vertigo's God. Dc doesn't have a "God" it has a supreme force.

You PROBABLY DO have a better intepretation than I do, but ARGUE it then...you're not doing that. Why can't you ATTACK my individual points bro? You are simplifying you're argument by saying that he is a Supreme Being and therefore perfect, and I shouldn't question that.

Untrue...I have every right as reader and debator to question anything I want.

I really feel you are confusing Vertigo's God with your own. To tell me that I as a READER and an EXISTING human being could never comprehend or judge the will and structure of a COMIC BOOK CHARACTER is unrealistic....

I made numerous points for why I think what, PLEASE ADDRESS THEM individually if you want to convince me of anything.

Thank you [/B]

YES I DO....HES SUPREME BEING..HE HAS INFINITE POWER AND JURISDICTION AND CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING in VERTIGO....

I was never arguing against that. I was saying he is IMPERFECT.

You still haven't addressed my individual points, do you simply not have the patience for it?

PLZ just do me the favor of attacking my points that i made before, it will further convince me of your point.

P.S...i am not the only person who thinks Yahweh is flawed. JVenom also agrees with me on that, in fact he convinced ME of the fact, in the thread "Battle of Gods" which you also stopped answering.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
YES I DO....HES SUPREME BEING..HE HAS INFINITE POWER AND JURISDICTION AND CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING in VERTIGO....

I was never arguing against that. I was saying he is IMPERFECT.

You still haven't addressed my individual points, do you simply not have the patience for it?

PLZ just do me the favor of attacking my points that i made before, it will further convince me of your point.

P.S...i am not the only person who thinks Yahweh is flawed. JVenom also agrees with me on that, in fact he convinced ME of the fact, in the thread "Battle of Gods" which you also stopped answering.

Juntai...i beleived i overlooked your last statement by mistake.

I understand when you say the IMPERFECTION is a concept, and you say a concept is only a multiversal aspect and Yahweh being above that means he lacks that.

However someone states before that he can feel BOREDOM and LONELINESS....

if that is the CASE, then he Is imperfect, because boredom and loneliness are human and imperfect states of mind.

A TRUE perfect being would be complete in itself, therefore not NEED to satisfy itself with any other.

PRESENCE is perfection...Yahweh is not.

Now i ask you:

Does Yahweh feel and have to prevent his own Boredom or loneliness ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Juntai...i beleived i overlooked your last statement by mistake.

I understand when you say the IMPERFECTION is a concept, and you say a concept is only a multiversal aspect and Yahweh being above that means he lacks that.

However someone states before that he can feel BOREDOM and LONELINESS....

if that is the CASE, then he Is imperfect, because boredom and loneliness are human and imperfect states of mind.

A TRUE perfect being would be complete in itself, therefore not NEED to satisfy itself with any other.

PRESENCE is perfection...Yahweh is not.

Now i ask you:

Does Yahweh feel and have to prevent his own Boredom or loneliness ?

You said the very fact that he created creation makes him imperfect. Do I really need to get into how dumb that is? Yahweh decided to make the most beautiful thing... Existance. And then did it. Everything inside and outside of creation, has gone exactly has how his ultimate will, wills it to be. Where's the imperfect-ness?

Again your intepretation, you're not giving me fact or even contradicting my points at all.You're just simplifying you're argument. That may work for you, but its not convincing me anything.

I never said the first sentence you wrote. Never.

He created Existance? literally impossible ...if he already EXISTED....he did not CREATE existance...existance a CONCEPT that even HE is subjected to.

If things have gone exactly as he wished them to be, then why would he be disapproving of the current existance? unless im severely mistaken, and if things all do go his way, then there is NO free will, only a dictatorship.

again..just yours and my interpretations at ODDs.......

Yahweh's words and actions are directly relative to his great plan. Whatever that plan may be.

AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?

DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT

A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE

I did not see anything that would convince me that JVenom is right about yahweh/the presence being a flawed being at all! I own most of the Lucifer comics and own a few Swamp Thing and some Spectre comics. Everything points to what Juntai is saying is true.. 😉

Also he created everything from nothing. Just to hard for any of us to comprehend that.

Originally posted by kevdude
I did not see anything that would convince me that JVenom is right about yahweh/the presence being a flawed being at all! I own most of the Lucifer comics and own a few Swamp Thing and some Spectre comics. Everything points to what Juntai is saying is true.. 😉

Also he created everything from nothing. Just to hard for any of us to comprehend that.

AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?

DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT

A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B]You said the very fact that he created creation makes him imperfect. Do I really need to get into how dumb that is? Yahweh decided to make the most beautiful thing... Existance. And then did it. Everything inside and outside of creation, has gone exactly has how his ultimate will, wills it to be. Where's the imperfect-ness?

Again your intepretation, you're not giving me fact or even contradicting my points at all.You're just simplifying you're argument. That may work for you, but its not convincing me anything.

I never said the first sentence you wrote. Never.

He created Existance? literally impossible ...if he already EXISTED....he did not CREATE existance...existance a CONCEPT that even HE is subjected to.

If things have gone exactly as he wished them to be, then why would he be disapproving of the current existance? unless im severely mistaken, and if things all do go his way, then there is NO free will, only a dictatorship.

again..just yours and my interpretations at ODDs....... [/B]

[[[[You said the very fact that he created creation makes him imperfect. Do I really need to get into how dumb that is? Yahweh decided to make the most beautiful thing... Existance. And then did it. Everything inside and outside of creation, has gone exactly has how his ultimate will, wills it to be. Where's the imperfect-ness?]]]]]]

]

Again your intepretation, you're not giving me fact or even contradicting my points at all.You're just simplifying you're argument. That may work for you, but its not convincing me anything.

I never said the first sentence you wrote. Never.

He created Existance? literally impossible ...if he already EXISTED....he did not CREATE existance...existance a CONCEPT that even HE is subjected to.

If things have gone exactly as he wished them to be, then why would he be disapproving of the current existance? unless im severely mistaken, and if things all do go his way, then there is NO free will, only a dictatorship.

again..just yours and my interpretations at ODDs.......