Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, according to Sadow and the sources we have, the Sith empire had done nothing but stagnate and infight...Luke's faced new threats almost constantly, we've seen him clear out, what, thousands of warriors at one time? He's got more raw power than practically anyone, he's been described as a maelstrom of the force, he's become a living conduit of the lightside, he can move much faster than the eye can see...Luke's got a huge list of credentials and he's the EU's baby
I know what Luke did and I don't want to downplay his abilities.
The point is: When was he ever confronting people as powerful as ancient Sith Lords and defeated them on his own in a duel ? He defeated Sidious with Leia's help but even then he says that Sidious "conquered himself". He was nearly killed by Shimrra and by Raynar. So how would he be able to survive against somebody with Shimrra's physical strength and force powers / force control of somebody who studied the Dark Side for centuries ?
And Ragnos is likely to catch a blast bug in the face, killing him instantly if he tries that. Shimrra is probably at least a good a fighter as Ragnos and Luke and Kun hurl the scales out.
Yes. Because Ragnos is totally unable to survive a blast bug seeing that he's covered with armor and far lesser for users are able to absorb huge amounts of energy (in this case the energy coming from the exploding bug).
And in the EU, we see Luke and Palpatine surpassing anyone else.
Luke survived Raynar and Shimrra both only because he was quite lucky. Judging by Luke's own words in JK:JA Ragnos is more powerful than DE Sidious - or at least Luke thought it. So I personally didn't see the two surpassing "anyone".
Because Sadow was the official Dark Lord? Sadow lost the title before the Hyperspace war ended. Nadd then apprenticed himself to dark Lord whoeverthehell he was and fled. And Since Nadd killed Sadow, I doubt he was much a weakling. There's nothing stating Nadd's power one way or the other.
Sadow did have those title and he was one of the 3 most powerful people arround in the "Golden Age" of the Sith Empire. So if Nadd could kill Sadow why shouldn't he be able to kill any other Sith that maybe was alive in his time ? And Nadd only apprenticed Sadow and after this went to Korriban to establish his own "empire". It's pretty unlikely that there was any other Sith Lord arround because otherwise I don't see why Ragnos should handle the title over to Kun 400 years later.
The same historian is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the official words on the subject and Kreia is a known liar, manipulator and possible psychopath with no knowledge of Sith four thousand years later.
The historian is a historian. If you want to argue like that I can go and say that the historian had to make the government he works for look as good as he could and therefore left out some details and tuned facts here and there. Not to mention that he himself says that he might have missed some things and some things can be errorous and he doesn't have any knowledge about the Sith who lived 5,000 years before his time.
And Kun probably lived during Kreia's own lifetime, same with Revan and Malak. And she - while personally able to kill Jedi Council Members with a handmovement - descriped Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening" and says she and her companions are "children" compared to the Ancients. Why should she lie in this situation ?
When Ragnos had all of those things, plus artifacts from times before his...and Palpatine drained several worlds to reinvigorate himself after he left Droga's body.
What reason did Palpatine have to drain "several worlds" before entering his new body ? And where is that mentioned please ? And where did you ever see Ragnos fighting alive while having access to all of his artifacts ?
I mean - have a look at the amount of power Kun gained by just using one of Sadow's amulets without having full control over said weapon. And we have almost any of the Ancient Sith wearing two of those things and Ragnos has a third on his neck + his sceptre.
Kressh was extremely loyal to Ragnos and Ragnos made totally certain the Sith were too busy fighting amongst themselves to question his rule.
Yes of course the manipulative, lying and possibly psychopathic Kreia must be right on that topic but not when she's talking about Ragnos power. Don't hand me those double-standarts. In the German version of the game she says that Ragnos manipulated the other Sith to attack each other or himself so that they won't develop the idea to expand the Empire further (reaching Republic space) and that he crushed his opponents. Not even mentioning her quote that Civil Wars were quite common in the Sith Empire.
And Sadow could be kneeling possibly because it's the smart thing to do. No explanation for why Ragnos is letting Sadow backtalk him and disobey his direct orders.
Oh...he kneels down because it's the smart thing to do than backtalks Ragnos (by asking him why he does intervene in the fight ?) and Sadow disobeys which orders exactly ? Ragnos only tells them to fight the right battles and Sadow though the "right battle" is attacking Republic space. Which was possibly the right battle because he was winning until Gav betrayed him.
We see someone vastly inferior to Luke dealing with said scepter when it was probably more boosted up than ever before, and Luke's dealt with very dangerous sith technology and weaponry when he's faced Lumiya, Shadowspawn apparently, the prophets, among others.What "dangerous Sith technology and weaponry" are you talking about ? A lightwhip ?
[quote]
Weaker than in his living form? he'd just gotten a massive boost from the scepter's energies itself.
Ahaha. No. Tavion gets interrupted by Jaden before being able to use the sceptre properly on Ragnos. Remember: She wanted to ressurect him in flesh and blood and just got a spirit which posessed her (which was arround in DE times just 5 years earlier anyway) - already beaten down body which was killed when Ragnos' spirit exited it.
And Ragnos draws the sword and tosses the scepter away casually...and actually, that the ending is uncanon changes things completely as it could be a gross exagerration rather than what happened. And it takes a single stab of a lightsaber to blow the scepter up, and we know force sensitive items can be destroyed with even a gesture of the force.
Again: What was the reason for Ragnos to throw his sceptre away instead of using it against Jaden ?
a) Tavions body wasn't able to handle both weapons at once.
b) Ragnos deemed himself to be vastly superior compared to Jaden even in this form ("A mere Jedi child will not undo my return" "You will kneel before me"😉
And you know that items like that are far harder to destroy when being used by force sensitives.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I know what Luke did and I don't want to downplay his abilities.
The point is: When was he ever confronting people as powerful as ancient Sith Lords and defeated them on his own in a duel ? He defeated Sidious with Leia's help but even then he says that Sidious "conquered himself". He was nearly killed by Shimrra and by Raynar. So how would he be able to survive against somebody with Shimrra's physical strength and force powers / force control of somebody who studied the Dark Side for centuries ?Yes. Because Ragnos is totally unable to survive a blast bug seeing that he's covered with armor and far lesser for users are able to absorb huge amounts of energy (in this case the energy coming from the exploding bug).
Luke survived Raynar and Shimrra both only because he was quite lucky. Judging by Luke's own words in JK:JA Ragnos is more powerful than DE Sidious - or at least Luke thought it. So I personally didn't see the two surpassing "anyone".
Sadow did have those title and he was one of the 3 most powerful people arround in the "Golden Age" of the Sith Empire. So if Nadd could kill Sadow why shouldn't he be able to kill any other Sith that maybe was alive in his time ? And Nadd only apprenticed Sadow and after this went to Korriban to establish his own "empire". It's pretty unlikely that there was any other Sith Lord arround because otherwise I don't see why Ragnos should handle the title over to Kun 400 years later.
The historian is a historian. If you want to argue like that I can go and say that the historian had to make the government he works for look as good as he could and therefore left out some details and tuned facts here and there. Not to mention that he himself says that he might have missed some things and some things can be errorous and he doesn't have any knowledge about the Sith who lived 5,000 years before his time.
And Kun probably lived during Kreia's own lifetime, same with Revan and Malak. And she - while personally able to kill Jedi Council Members with a handmovement - descriped Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening" and says she and her companions are "children" compared to the Ancients. Why should she lie in this situation ?
What reason did Palpatine have to drain "several worlds" before entering his new body ? And where is that mentioned please ? And where did you ever see Ragnos fighting alive while having access to all of his artifacts ?
I mean - have a look at the amount of power Kun gained by just using one of Sadow's amulets without having full control over said weapon. And we have almost any of the Ancient Sith wearing two of those things and Ragnos has a third on his neck + his sceptre.Yes of course the manipulative, lying and possibly psychopathic Kreia must be right on that topic but not when she's talking about Ragnos power. Don't hand me those double-standarts. In the German version of the game she says that Ragnos manipulated the other Sith to attack each other or himself so that they won't develop the idea to expand the Empire further (reaching Republic space) and that he crushed his opponents. Not even mentioning her quote that Civil Wars were quite common in the Sith Empire.
Oh...he kneels down because it's the smart thing to do than backtalks Ragnos (by asking him why he does intervene in the fight ?) and Sadow disobeys which orders exactly ? Ragnos only tells them to fight the right battles and Sadow though the "right battle" is attacking Republic space. Which was possibly the right battle because he was winning until Gav betrayed him.
Ahaha. No. Tavion gets interrupted by Jaden before being able to use the sceptre properly on Ragnos. Remember: She wanted to ressurect him in flesh and blood and just got a spirit which posessed her (which was arround in DE times just 5 years earlier anyway) - already beaten down body which was killed when Ragnos' spirit exited it.
Again: What was the reason for Ragnos to throw his sceptre away instead of using it against Jaden ?
a) Tavions body wasn't able to handle both weapons at once.
b) Ragnos deemed himself to be vastly superior compared to Jaden even in this form ("A mere Jedi child will not undo my return" "You will kneel before me"😉And you know that items like that are far harder to destroy when being used by force sensitives.
Shimrra and Raynar have one thing in common: Luke trashed them both, when facing an opponent who couldn't be felt through the Force and against the combined force power of an entire species How would Luke survive? By utilizing the full abilities of his force and physical power, or cut Ragnos off from the Force. Especially when backed up by two other power houses....Raynar also merely force pushed Luke...and Luke had just fought an army when he fought Shimrra
Armor will stop an explosion with the force of a thermal detonator? And yes, ragnos will totally expect a blast bug when he can't sense it and has no clue what it is...
Erm...Nadd went to the Sith empire AFTER he trained with Sadow and was apprenticed to a dark lord. I think that's in the TOTJ companion somewhere, too...it's certainly in the chronology.
Said historian knows all about the intricacies of their technology and enough of their power even by what he's heard and the remnants of their empire.
Kreia has several reasons: To prepare the Exile for the coming battle with the True Sith, to keep him from fighting the Ancients...And KReia has firsthand info of theTrue Sith, not of the Ancients, nor was that 'turned the Sith against eachother' thing limited to just KOTOR.
almost every source, written by KJA or not says Ragnos was encouraging unity among the Sith...Sadow even makes it clear he has no intention of making peace with Ludo...and yeah, kneeling when everyone else is tends to be wise. And sadow's forces were winning...they hadn't won yet and the Jedi were still fighting strong, not counting for incoming reinforcements on several areas and are the Ancients so weak they need illusions just to tip the favor on just THREE WORLDS?
No, I haven't seen a living ragnos fight, but here's more to the point...have you? Do you know how good he was compared to people like Sidious and Luke, people the EU have been favoring since day one? And like you said: at least Luke thought it, and we can debate that quote, considering Luke is no longer a pure conduit to the lightside, and Luke could be talking about stopping ragnos's ressurection and his forces which is the POINT of his mission and that speech
And Palp drained several worlds to increase his power following his return, it was either in the DE sourcebook or the dE handbooks.
Tavion had already been feeding energy into Ragnos, who's to say that didn't help him quite a bit? And ajunta's spirit was thought to be 20,000 years old in KOTOR and was capable of harming people...and you left out C with ragnos there:
He got really overconfident with Jaden.
And when are items harder to destroy when being used by force sensitives? Luke's destroyed items used by Lumiya and Shadowspawn apparently.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Shimrra and Raynar have one thing in common: Luke trashed them both, when facing an opponent who couldn't be felt through the Force and against the combined force power of an entire species How would Luke survive? By utilizing the full abilities of his force and physical power, or cut Ragnos off from the Force. Especially when backed up by two other power houses....Raynar also merely force pushed Luke...and Luke had just fought an army when he fought Shimrra
Oh of course Luke will just cut Ragnos force connection off - a technique we never saw being used against somebody who tried to defend himself by a single being. Ok. Then Ragnos will instakill Kun and Luke with the attack Kreia used against the 3 Jedi Council Members in KotoR 2 (Ancient Sith technique) and then he will curbstomp Shimrra.
And Raynar force pushed Luke through a room and into a wall so hard that a tend was left and Luke's helmet was broken - and Luke clearly said he would have been dead if he wasn't wearing the helmet.
Armor will stop an explosion with the force of a thermal detonator? And yes, ragnos will totally expect a blast bug when he can't sense it and has no clue what it is...
With the force of a thermal detonator ? Read the SotE comics and have a look at the explosion of a thermal detonator - one of them took down the entire Black Sun headquarter. And normal soldiers survived blast bug hits but Ragnos wearing armor entchanted with Sith Alchemy can't ? And of course he will not see that thing coming as well as he wouldn't use the typical lightning fast reflexes that force users do pocess normaly.
Erm...Nadd went to the Sith empire AFTER he trained with Sadow and was apprenticed to a dark lord. I think that's in the TOTJ companion somewhere, too...it's certainly in the chronology.
The Dark Lord = Sadow. There was no other Sith Lord outside the Sith Empire and the original sources make it pretty clear that he trained under Sadow, then ended his training himself before it was finished (either by killing Sadow or simply flee from Yavin 4) to finally establish his reign on Onderon.
Said historian knows all about the intricacies of their technology and enough of their power even by what he's heard and the remnants of their empire.
You really think a historian can give accurate statements on an era 5,000 years in the past when the only material he has about that era comes from the enemies of said people ? Can he give more accurate statements then the person who experienced parts of the Ancient Sith powers ? I doubt it.
Kreia has several reasons: To prepare the Exile for the coming battle with the True Sith, to keep him from fighting the Ancients...And KReia has firsthand info of theTrue Sith, not of the Ancients, nor was that 'turned the Sith against eachother' thing limited to just KOTOR.
Funny stuff. So she tells the Exile that he's a child compared to those people he wants him to fight ? Way to motivate a warrior. And the Ancients are the true Sith. Don't try to establish some fan speculations as facts.
And the "turned the Sith against eachother" thing is mentioned were outside of KotoR ?
almost every source, written by KJA or not says Ragnos was encouraging unity among the Sith...Sadow even makes it clear he has no intention of making peace with Ludo...and yeah, kneeling when everyone else is tends to be wise.
Oh wait: First Ragnos plotted them against each other and suddenly he wants unity among them ? And Sadow was so disrespectfull that he didn't contradict Ragnos directly and - when the Daragons arrived - even talked to Kressh and the others before starting his manipulations...
And sadow's forces were winning...they hadn't won yet and the Jedi were still fighting strong, not counting for incoming reinforcements on several areas and are the Ancients so weak they need illusions just to tip the favor on just THREE WORLDS?
Oh yes. Let's simply ignore the fact that even Battle Meditation couldn't stop the onslaught of the Sith forces. Let's ignore that Sadow attacked the capital planet of Empress Teta, a system that tends to be quite martial and Coruscant the Republics capital city at once and was totally dominating all battlefields until the point where his illusions were destroyed.
No, I haven't seen a living ragnos fight, but here's more to the point...have you? Do you know how good he was compared to people like Sidious and Luke, people the EU have been favoring since day one? And like you said: at least Luke thought it, and we can debate that quote, considering Luke is no longer a pure conduit to the lightside, and Luke could be talking about stopping ragnos's ressurection and his forces which is the POINT of his mission and that speech
How often do people have to throw the dumb quote at you. He say that it would need all the Jedi in the Academy to try stop a resurrected Ragnos. Not the Disciples, not the process of Ragnos resurrection - the living Ragnos. What do you want to discuss here ? That Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin are able to channel more Dark Side energy then a later version of Luke and the combined forces of the entire Academy (dozens of Jedi Knights) - which is even more power needed than was needed to counter Raynars "mind manipulation" attacks ? That of course considering that Luke taught his students how to join their powers ?
And Ragnos does pocess more physical strength than anybody in Luke's Jedi Order. He carried a nearly 2 metre long melee weapon not even mentioning his sceptre (equaly long). That tends to give you some muscles.
And yeah...how could would somebody be who trained in fighting for more than a century and studied the Dark Side for more than a cetury compared to a guy with 3 decades of training and another one with 9 decades of training - when the latter one didn't even pocess all of Ragnos secrets. Better maybe ? I think so.
And Palp drained several worlds to increase his power following his return, it was either in the DE sourcebook or the dE handbooks.
Actual sources > Sourcebooks. Get it into your head.
Tavion had already been feeding energy into Ragnos, who's to say that didn't help him quite a bit? And ajunta's spirit was thought to be 20,000 years old in KOTOR and was capable of harming people...and you left out C with ragnos there: He got really overconfident with Jaden.
Oh great. Let's see. If Ragnos had the power he had 1,000 years after his death (where he was able to place marks on the foreheads of two quite powerful beings across half of the Galaxy) or the power we saw other Sith spirits handling (like Nadd and Kun) he wouldn't have taken over Tavions body but instead crushed Jaden while remaining in his spirit form.
And when are items harder to destroy when being used by force sensitives? Luke's destroyed items used by Lumiya and Shadowspawn apparently.
What items did Luke destroy that were in use by said people, hm ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh of course Luke will just cut Ragnos force connection off - a technique we never saw being used against somebody who tried to defend himself by a single being. Ok. Then Ragnos will instakill Kun and Luke with the attack Kreia used against the 3 Jedi Council Members in KotoR 2 (Ancient Sith technique) and then he will curbstomp Shimrra.And Raynar force pushed Luke through a room and into a wall so hard that a tend was left and Luke's helmet was broken - and Luke clearly said he would have been dead if he wasn't wearing the helmet.
With the force of a thermal detonator ? Read the SotE comics and have a look at the explosion of a thermal detonator - one of them took down the entire Black Sun headquarter. And normal soldiers survived blast bug hits but Ragnos wearing armor entchanted with Sith Alchemy can't ? And of course he will not see that thing coming as well as he wouldn't use the typical lightning fast reflexes that force users do pocess normaly.
The Dark Lord = Sadow. There was no other Sith Lord outside the Sith Empire and the original sources make it pretty clear that he trained under Sadow, then ended his training himself before it was finished (either by killing Sadow or simply flee from Yavin 4) to finally establish his reign on Onderon.
You really think a historian can give accurate statements on an era 5,000 years in the past when the only material he has about that era comes from the enemies of said people ? Can he give more accurate statements then the person who experienced parts of the Ancient Sith powers ? I doubt it.
Funny stuff. So she tells the Exile that he's a child compared to those people he wants him to fight ? Way to motivate a warrior. And the Ancients are the true Sith. Don't try to establish some fan speculations as facts.
And the "turned the Sith against eachother" thing is mentioned were outside of KotoR ?Oh wait: First Ragnos plotted them against each other and suddenly he wants unity among them ? And Sadow was so disrespectfull that he didn't contradict Ragnos directly and - when the Daragons arrived - even talked to Kressh and the others before starting his manipulations...
Oh yes. Let's simply ignore the fact that even Battle Meditation couldn't stop the onslaught of the Sith forces. Let's ignore that Sadow attacked the capital planet of Empress Teta, a system that tends to be quite martial and Coruscant the Republics capital city at once and was totally dominating all battlefields until the point where his illusions were destroyed.
How often do people have to throw the dumb quote at you. He say that it would need all the Jedi in the Academy to try stop a resurrected Ragnos. Not the Disciples, not the process of Ragnos resurrection - the living Ragnos. What do you want to discuss here ? That Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin are able to channel more Dark Side energy then a later version of Luke and the combined forces of the entire Academy (dozens of Jedi Knights) - which is even more power needed than was needed to counter Raynars "mind manipulation" attacks ? That of course considering that Luke taught his students how to join their powers ?
And Ragnos does pocess more physical strength than anybody in Luke's Jedi Order. He carried a nearly 2 metre long melee weapon not even mentioning his sceptre (equaly long). That tends to give you some muscles.
And yeah...how could would somebody be who trained in fighting for more than a century and studied the Dark Side for more than a cetury compared to a guy with 3 decades of training and another one with 9 decades of training - when the latter one didn't even pocess all of Ragnos secrets. Better maybe ? I think so.Actual sources > Sourcebooks. Get it into your head.
Oh great. Let's see. If Ragnos had the power he had 1,000 years after his death (where he was able to place marks on the foreheads of two quite powerful beings across half of the Galaxy) or the power we saw other Sith spirits handling (like Nadd and Kun) he wouldn't have taken over Tavions body but instead crushed Jaden while remaining in his spirit form.
What items did Luke destroy that were in use by said people, hm ?
Except, there's no proof Ragnos could do that, considering the drain move has shown to be blockable.
Thankfully Luke was wearing the helmet and Luke didn't let himself be caught off guard again. In the straight fight, Raynar was beaten.
And those lightning fast reflexes will help him when the shock that he can't affect it through the force sets in? And yeah, blast bugs were described to explode with the force of a thermal detonator. Even if Ragnos is wearing armor, he'll be asphyxiated, or cooked.
Tell that to KRessh, who took the title from Sadow, and evidence shows the Sith empire continued. I'm sorry, but the facts remain: Sadow died, and AFTER Nadd's training on Yavin, he apprenticed himself to a Dark Lord and fled with his master STILL ALIVE, Sadow was very dead by that point.
Can a man who's a mouthpiece for the authors, accurately reflecting out of universe info give accurate statements when he already knows the intricacies of the Sith Empire's formation, what Sadow, Nadd and Ludo did, Ragnos as well in detail? Yeah, I think he can make that distinction.
In a fantasy setting, how do people OFTEN motivate the hero? Tell them they're too weak to do (Insert task here), and it usually works. Or Kreia wanted him to stay clear of them and there's ZERO proof Kreia was right or talking about anyone outside her group. Sith Civil war and the like are mentioned in the NEC
No, Luke said nothing about trying to stop Ragnos, he said they WOULD stop him and prevent his ressurection. And this is Luke without wielding the entire power of the lightside and twenty years before DN. Since the ENTIRE MISSION is defeating the cult and stopping ragnos, should we take Leia's quote about the entire armada needed to stop Thrawn? Or Jaina saying they needed the entire Chiss against Lomi? A singular person can easily be referred to as his forces. And for the final time: Luke, Anakin and Leia were channeling pretty much the entire light side to block Palpatine from the dark side, Palp's attack described as the greatest usage of dark side power ever. And once more: Luke's the expert here? If Luke was in the chamber with Tavion and Ragnos, fighting seriously...
Once more: The ancient Sith were so weak they needed illusions to even be winning on just three worlds?
And how could Anakin defeat Durge, a warrior with...2,000 years of experience? Age and the like means nothing, unless you want to argue Vodo was better than Kun, or Odan Urr...I'm gonna take a leap of faith and say Ood was much older than Sedriss...unlike ragnos, Luke's been discovering new levels of the Force and has been fighting new threats week after week after week. Hell, Yaddle grew severely in power after being imprisoned for over a hundred years by meditating.
No, actual sources do NOT>Sourcebooks and someone from LFL confirmed they are on the SAME LEVEL.
Ragnos had just received the power from the scepter and once more: According to KOTOR, 20,000 year old spirits can harm people...even in Tavion's body, Ragnos is wielding his weapon, with the dark powers of Korriban to call on..when was Tavion's body even terribly wounded near to death? Palpatine possessed Jeng Droga when Droga had every practically ever bone broken and managed to get them to Byss.
Items Luke destroyed are unknown, but they're described as deadly and frightening Ancient Sith artifacts and weapons
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except, there's no proof Ragnos could do that, considering the drain move has shown to be blockable.
Yes. But there is proof that Luke can cut peoples force connection off, right ? Much more when we see this technique being resisted by powerful Dark Siders before (Odan vs Exar Kun), right ?
Thankfully Luke was wearing the helmet and Luke didn't let himself be caught off guard again. In the straight fight, Raynar was beaten.
He wents to fight a being that is powered up with the force potential of an entire race and lets himself caught off guard ? Think about that...
And those lightning fast reflexes will help him when the shock that he can't affect it through the force sets in? And yeah, blast bugs were described to explode with the force of a thermal detonator. Even if Ragnos is wearing armor, he'll be asphyxiated, or cooked.
They clearly don't explode with the force of a thermal detonator since people survived it and if they do this will detonate the entire fighting era including Shimrra, Luke and Kun.
Tell that to KRessh, who took the title from Sadow, and evidence shows the Sith empire continued. I'm sorry, but the facts remain: Sadow died, and AFTER Nadd's training on Yavin, he apprenticed himself to a Dark Lord and fled with his master STILL ALIVE, Sadow was very dead by that point.
You mean evidence like the Tetan's destroying the Sith Empire ?
And you get those "facts" from what source ? Another RPG sourcebook which contradicts the actual sources ?
Can a man who's a mouthpiece for the authors, accurately reflecting out of universe info give accurate statements when he already knows the intricacies of the Sith Empire's formation, what Sadow, Nadd and Ludo did, Ragnos as well in detail? Yeah, I think he can make that distinction.
Can it be that a character that is just called a "mouthpiece of the author" by you, who acknowledges himself that his statement might contain errors...makes errors ? No...of course that is completely impossible.
In a fantasy setting, how do people OFTEN motivate the hero? Tell them they're too weak to do (Insert task here), and it usually works. Or Kreia wanted him to stay clear of them and there's ZERO proof Kreia was right or talking about anyone outside her group. Sith Civil war and the like are mentioned in the NEC
What the...? How often do you see teachers in fantasy stories descripe their apprentices enemies as "frightening", then hand them the line that they are like "children" compared to said beings when wanting to send them out to fight those people ?
"Excuse me Frodo. You will NEVER make it to Mordor with that ring, you poor excuse for an intelligent lifeform. Sauron and his minions will find you, beat you, grind your bones into small pieces and then eat your remains !" - "Thanks Gandalf !"...
No, Luke said nothing about trying to stop Ragnos, he said they WOULD stop him and prevent his ressurection.
Oh yes. Luke in JK:JA
"If Ragnos is resurrected...., we would need all of our strength to stop him."
What is he saying ? Hm ? Stop talking out of your ass, Lightsnake.
And this is Luke without wielding the entire power of the lightside and twenty years before DN.
And this is Luke who has already beaten DE Sidious. And stop that "entire power of the lightside" stuff. Just because Leia unlocked some "unknown power" in him that doesn't mean he did suddenly wield the entire power of the Light Side - I told you serveral times why this concept is impossible to realize.
Since the ENTIRE MISSION is defeating the cult and stopping ragnos, should we take Leia's quote about the entire armada needed to stop Thrawn? Or Jaina saying they needed the entire Chiss against Lomi? A singular person can easily be referred to as his forces.
See quote above. Give me your attempt to interprete it in the way you like it.
And for the final time: Luke, Anakin and Leia were channeling pretty much the entire light side to block Palpatine from the dark side, Palp's attack described as the greatest usage of dark side power ever.
Oh my. Not this again. Sidious couldn't control the power, Leia and Luke didn't channel the entirety of the Light Side and it's even debateable if this was the "greatest usage of Dark Side power ever" considering the fact that Nihilus drained an entire planet filled with force users empty in a very short amount of time.
And once more: Luke's the expert here? If Luke was in the chamber with Tavion and Ragnos, fighting seriously...
Yes. Great he would won like Jaden have. Which is an irrelevant missdirection anyways because we are talking about the living Ragnos - not his spirit, not his spirit using a weaker force user who's body was half dead anyways.
Once more: The ancient Sith were so weak they needed illusions to even be winning on just three worlds?
Wow. May I remind you how Luke and Sidious did conquer worlds in the DE comics ? Illusions ? Oh...damn it. And in contrary to the Sith they had weapons of mass destruction at hand. Who sucks now, hmm ?
And how could Anakin defeat Durge, a warrior with...2,000 years of experience? Age and the like means nothing, unless you want to argue Vodo was better than Kun, or Odan Urr...I'm gonna take a leap of faith and say Ood was much older than Sedriss...unlike ragnos, Luke's been discovering new levels of the Force and has been fighting new threats week after week after week. Hell, Yaddle grew severely in power after being imprisoned for over a hundred years by meditating.
Irrelevant missdirection number 2,202,489,292. We always see Light Sider users getting pwned by younger Dark Side users. Do you understand that concept ? Again: When have we seen a Jedi beating a century old Sith Lord in personal confrontation and on his own ? Right ! Never ! Because the Dark Side is the fast way too power and not a single lightsider can reach the powerlevel of a Sith Lord in the same amount of time the Sith needs to get there.
No, actual sources do NOT>Sourcebooks and someone from LFL confirmed they are on the SAME LEVEL.
I love how you always overlook the "with exceptions" in the canon policy. The original source material is clearly above the sourcebooks.
Ragnos had just received the power from the scepter and once more: According to KOTOR, 20,000 year old spirits can harm people...even in Tavion's body, Ragnos is wielding his weapon, with the dark powers of Korriban to call on..when was Tavion's body even terribly wounded near to death? Palpatine possessed Jeng Droga when Droga had every practically ever bone broken and managed to get them to Byss.
Oh now Ragnos received the entire power of the sceptre - this is why he didn't walk around in his living form, right ?
Read what I have written instead of kicking in irrelevant missdirectiosn over and over again. Answer my point or don't answer at all.
Point: We have seen spirits of weaker people being able to wtfpwn Jedi who were clearly above Jaden's level. Conclusion: Ragnos spirit was weakened otherwise he wouldn't have taken over Tavion. Period.
And Tavion just died when Ragnos exits because - erm - maybe being deathly wounded ? Or did Ragnos power corrupt Tavion so much in the matter of minutes that her body died because of that (which would make Palpatine look like a dwarf in terms of Dark Side energy).
Items Luke destroyed are unknown, but they're described as deadly and frightening Ancient Sith artifacts and weapons
Wow. Unknown items which do never appear in the actual source material and aren't even mentioned. Where did you get the information from ? The Great Fanboy Encyclopedia of Character Worshipping ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. But there is proof that Luke can cut peoples force connection off, right ? Much more when we see this technique being resisted by powerful Dark Siders before (Odan vs Exar Kun), right ?He wents to fight a being that is powered up with the force potential of an entire race and lets himself caught off guard ? Think about that...
They clearly don't explode with the force of a thermal detonator since people survived it and if they do this will detonate the entire fighting era including Shimrra, Luke and Kun.
You mean evidence like the Tetan's destroying the Sith Empire ?
And you get those "facts" from what source ? Another RPG sourcebook which contradicts the actual sources ?Can it be that a character that is just called a "mouthpiece of the author" by you, who acknowledges himself that his statement might contain errors...makes errors ? No...of course that is completely impossible.
What the...? How often do you see teachers in fantasy stories descripe their apprentices enemies as "frightening", then hand them the line that they are like "children" compared to said beings when wanting to send them out to fight those people ?
"Excuse me Frodo. You will NEVER make it to Mordor with that ring, you poor excuse for an intelligent lifeform. Sauron and his minions will find you, beat you, grind your bones into small pieces and then eat your remains !" - "Thanks Gandalf !"...Oh yes. Luke in JK:JA
What is he saying ? Hm ? Stop talking out of your ass, Lightsnake.
And this is Luke who has already beaten DE Sidious. And stop that "entire power of the lightside" stuff. Just because Leia unlocked some "unknown power" in him that doesn't mean he did suddenly wield the entire power of the Light Side - I told you serveral times why this concept is impossible to realize.
See quote above. Give me your attempt to interprete it in the way you like it.
Oh my. Not this again. Sidious couldn't control the power, Leia and Luke didn't channel the entirety of the Light Side and it's even debateable if this was the "greatest usage of Dark Side power ever" considering the fact that Nihilus drained an entire planet filled with force users empty in a very short amount of time.
Yes. Great he would won like Jaden have. Which is an irrelevant missdirection anyways because we are talking about the living Ragnos - not his spirit, not his spirit using a weaker force user who's body was half dead anyways.
Wow. May I remind you how Luke and Sidious did conquer worlds in the DE comics ? Illusions ? Oh...damn it. And in contrary to the Sith they had weapons of mass destruction at hand. Who sucks now, hmm ?
Irrelevant missdirection number 2,202,489,292. We always see Light Sider users getting pwned by younger Dark Side users. Do you understand that concept ? Again: When have we seen a Jedi beating a century old Sith Lord in personal confrontation and on his own ? Right ! Never ! Because the Dark Side is the fast way too power and not a single lightsider can reach the powerlevel of a Sith Lord in the same amount of time the Sith needs to get there.
I love how you always overlook the "with exceptions" in the canon policy. The original source material is clearly above the sourcebooks.
Oh now Ragnos received the entire power of the sceptre - this is why he didn't walk around in his living form, right ?
Read what I have written instead of kicking in irrelevant missdirectiosn over and over again. Answer my point or don't answer at all.
Point: We have seen spirits of weaker people being able to wtfpwn Jedi who were clearly above Jaden's level. Conclusion: Ragnos spirit was weakened otherwise he wouldn't have taken over Tavion. Period.
And Tavion just died when Ragnos exits because - erm - maybe being deathly wounded ? Or did Ragnos power corrupt Tavion so much in the matter of minutes that her body died because of that (which would make Palpatine look like a dwarf in terms of Dark Side energy).Wow. Unknown items which do never appear in the actual source material and aren't even mentioned. Where did you get the information from ? The Great Fanboy Encyclopedia of Character Worshipping ?
Yeah, Luke can. And I'll wager a guess that this Luke's quite stronger than Kun or Odan. He fought through an army and suspected he could have gone further than maelstrom mode...if he'd been using the force there.
As opposed to the Sith being ambushed by their Massassi? And being force pushed by a guy once, then Luke destroys him. Not only that, Lomi and Raynar were using the...entire force power of the colony?
Either way, Yuuzhan Vong explosives pack one helluva punch. And wasn't it more than one thermal detonator that destroyed Xizor's palace?
According to the sourcebooks, the chronology, the character guides, the comics themselves...and whatever it is, we know Sadow was dead by the time Nadd went to the Old Empire. We know Nadd killed Sadow so 'leaving while his master was alive', stated in the actual comics can't apply to Sadow.
Because Voren's made one mistake on historical events when the author acknowledged he wrote down what LFL gave him on those issues?
How often? In DnD, really often. In quite a few other fantasy series I could mention, maybe a coupla Sci Fi.
Um, no. The exact quote is "There's no telling what he might do. It will take all our strength to stop him." Nothing about trying, no 'woulds'
No, Nai, you haven't proven a thing there, considering they unlock the entire lightside, become pure 'luminous beings' in the force and draw power from every source of light in the entire galaxy.
Play KJ again, your quoting's a bit off.
No, according to the sources, Sidious was controlling it fine until Luke and Leia cut him off from it. And considering it's written down it was the greatest usage of dark side power...
Where was Tavion 'half dead?' She was injured, but...
How did Sidious and Luke conquer worlds? The World Devastators perhaps? Illusions were used once at the greatest concentration of the alliance fleet, the other times it was pure military power.
Anakin destroyed Dooku, Murtaugh defeated the Dark Underlord, whoever killed Darth Rivan was sure as hell younger than him, Kaox Krul was matched by a Jedi, tremayne was defeated by the young Padawan Corvin Shelvay, there's quite a few examples of younger Light siders besting older Dark Siders, and unlike Ragnos, Luke's faced new threats practically every week and has been discovering new levels of the Force, plus both sides of the fence with the Potentium...and it's been frequently stressed the Light Side is the true power.
Yeah, what 'with exception' here? According to a WRITER, they're on the same level.
You're denying Tavion did feed power into him? And where did spirits 'wtfpwn' Jedi on their own in direct confrontation? I recall sneak attacks and unexpected assaults. And I thought Tavion died because Jaden tore her body apart. Palpatine managed to keep Jeng's body together and his clone bodies still rotted. That's a bit different than another body that, in your words is 'half dead' already
Downplaying Luke's abilities now? Ancient, Frightening and powerful Sith weapons and artifacts are somehow weak? Ok, no more saying how powerful Ragnos's 'frightening' power was. As opposed to the 'Maelstrom' of force energy that was Luke? The awing power of the light? When you admit Ragnos is practically unknown and go on assumption with comparisons?