Rule of Tow

Originally posted by Razielim
Actually, the name "Palpatine" wasn't introduced until TPM.

He was always just "The Emperor".

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. Vaders title is "Lord" as you see all his subordinates calling him "Lord Vader". So if Obi-Wan wanted to use something like "Sir" or "Mister" he would have said "Lord" or "Mylord".

And Obi-Wan himself never calls him "Darth" out of this particular situation. He always refers to him as "Vader". And watch ANH carefully: When Luke and Obi-Wan meet for the first time and Obi-Wan tells Luke what happened to his father he tells Luke that "A young Jedi [b]named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father."

Lucas developed the concept of "Darth" being a title for the PT movies and because of that you don't have anybody in the EU using said title before the time of TPM (Kun, Ulic, Nadd, Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow).[/B]

Originally posted by Borbarad
You did notice that Ush denies the story of Darth Bane by using Lucas quote that the Sith always were two for "thousands of years" (so before Bane's time) ?

Ok here is a site with great movie quotes. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/quotes

Please note the following line in it. Word for word from the movie. I remember the movie well enough to know that it is true. lol

Luke: How did my father die?
Obi-Wan: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father.

Here is another line to support that it was orginaly intended for darth to be part of his name.

Darth Vader: Your powers are weak, old man.
Obi-Wan: You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

See Obi-Wan even said that Darth Vader was his name. Lucas just happens to change his mind a lot. Also the name Darth in the Sith name is ment to instill fear in their opponanats. Also here is another great line I love.

Darth Vader: I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I met you I was but the learner. Now, *I* am the master.
Obi-Wan: Only a master of evil, Darth.
[lightsabers clash]

i think that that was obiwan just fitting into his character, and that he called him darth so that luke wouldn't know his name, but thats a good idea too
and the other darth's are because obiwan only called him anakin when he was a jedi, and at the end of revenge of the sith he started to call him darth, or darth vader

It is amazing how easily someone can just change their name without going through any paperwork in the movies. lol. His name changed from Anakin Slywalker to Darth Vader in such a sort time. lol. You would think getting the new ID would be a pain. lol. Just imagine Vader waiting in line in the Galatic BMV or would it be Galatic BSV?

Originally posted by Borbarad

And how can the rule of two not be a secret when the existance of the Sith was ? How can the Jedi have thought that the Sith were exstinct when there were always two Sith Lords for thousands of years ? Was one of the Jedi a complete idiot who did possess an inability to count up to 2 ? "There are always two Sith. A master and an apprentice. One of them was killed. So there is...none left" ?
Jedi might act stupid sometimes but I doubt that they are [b]that stupid... [/B]

What is this gibberish? Did you actually look at what I said?

The point is that GL clearly makes out the Sith to have been like this for thousands of years. He says that clearly and undeniably.

The Jedi also think the Sith have been extinct for A thousand years. This is also said quite clearly.

Clearly, that mans that a thousand years ago they thought they had killed both, but were wrong. Simple as that.

Yoda's line "Always two there are" doesn't even make any sense if the Jedi have not seen them like that before. The context is entirely wrong. It is very clearly a comment being made based on previous experience the Order had. if it was a new thing, Yoda would have mentioned how the Sith have changed, or this being a new thing. Not at all- it is the same old thing, simply returned. Not surprising that it sounds like that, because that is exactly what GL had in mind.

Yes, I do accept GL's own word over the novelisation. Aside from anything else, Lucasfilm directly tells people to be like that, when they point out that even the novels are just other people's interpetations. GLs word is king, and whilst he might contradict himself sometimes, here he has not- he has been nothing but clear. Your second hand reports of what he might have thought are not as strong as direct quotes from him either.

Meanwhile, you don't need to tell me about the alternate universe nature of the EU. But it is the EU editors themselves who declared that anything from the film universe is primary canon for the EU as well. What GL says is canon for the film universe, therefore it is primary canon in the EU, therefore sources that differ from that are wrong.

I didn't make those rules, as ever, I am just the messenger. They didn't have to declare that, they could have said that the EU differences were correct and the films wrong, but there you go, they did it as they have done it.

-

And for the final time- what GL reads and approves does not matter one tiny bit. His opinion of the EU being an alternate Universe that he does not count is on public record. He can guide the EU all he likes, he still does not count it, and so the film continuity does not count it either.

-

Meanwhile, 'Darth' and 'Lord' are interchangeable. So it is perfectly acceptable for Obi-Wan to say 'Darth' as one might says 'Captain'.

But yes, also clearly, that is a retcon; at first it was a name, and then GL expanded it later to a title, causing a certain discontinuity with the EU. I think KOTOR did the right thing in assuming it was always like that.

I am afraid they don't actually say Palpatine in the OT, KD.

Hey Ush. I see you have ridden the forums of all the antediluvians.

No, Ki-Adi mundi says something of the sort...how old is Ki? Maybe...fifty? How old's Yoda? 900? Ok, then.

And yes, Obi-wan is going to address his enemy as 'lord'.

And yeah, Ush, GL's opinion means nothing! Nor does what he creates in the way of Sith history and dictates! Please

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
I think Yoda knowing about the rule of two was just a plot hole on lucas's part. There was no way for Yoda to know about it. Also the rule of two was created so the sith could remain hidden. I do however think the it did eventualy weaken the sith. Palpatine was not even that powerful. He had to use Kyber Crystals just to be as strong as we saw. About the only Sith Lords that ever impressed me from the movies was Vader and Maul. Maul was just realy gifted in the force he was just very good at hand to hand combat. Not to mention he had been training with Palpatine for quite a while. I do not think Palpatine had planned on Maul getting killed. However once realizing Anakin's potential he realy changed his plans to include him. I will say this though. Palpatine was one of the smartest sith but his plan did have some flaws. His mistake was taking over as Supreme Chanceller. He should have put in some weak minded pawn. Everyone knows the way to take out a group is to take out the leader. So if that leader died he could have just replaced him with someone else and Palapatine rules behind the scenes. Also I think the jedi in the prequal time were weaker then the order was in the old days. Just look at how Palpatine fooled them so easily.

Kyber Crystal. First off don't get important information that you plan to use from supershadow.com. Palpatine never used a Kyber Crystal. And the Jedi weren't fooled as easily as everyone seems to believe. During that time the Sith were thought to have died out then Darth Maul appears and killed Qui-Gon, one of the best Jedi of the order at the time. Then Count Dooku appears as the "Sith Lord" and if anything that took them away from finding the Sith Lord because of maybe 2 reasons.

1.) They thought Dooku was the Sith Lord
2.) Clone War

It seemed that Dooku helped throw the Jedi off the trail of finding Palpatine sooner and even then Mace and Yoda sensed the dark side surrounding the Chancellor.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, Ki-Adi mundi says something of the sort...how old is Ki? Maybe...fifty? How old's Yoda? 900? Ok, then.

And yes, Obi-wan is going to address his enemy as 'lord'.

And yeah, Ush, GL's opinion means nothing! Nor does what he creates in the way of Sith history and dictates! Please

GL's opinion is precisely what I posted, LS- that the EU is an alternative universe that does not count. Again, that is direct and umabiguous from GL himself. Sorry, but there it is. You do not have a leg to stand on. Direct quotes from GL- which you cannot match for you have no direct quotes- establish the Rule of Two NOT working as related about Bane, and about the EU not being counted by him.

Live with it.

Just thought I'd let you all know that Palpatine actually does use a kyber chrystal. His saber is a kyber saber.

Right, because a vague statement explained in a Luca reviewed source as incorrect supercedes Lucas's dictations over the history of the Sith...

Get real, Ush. This is just a case of 'I hate the EU! It doesn't count despite numerous recognitions and collaborations!"
When you take into account Lucas himself gave Terry this information, I believe him and GL a LOT more than you

However canon is a point of view so you will both have to agree to disagree.

Lightsnake, you lost, get over it.

Lucas himself has said many times that the EU is not part of his continuity. What Terry says is squat to what GL says, and unless GL himself says 'I gave him the history of the Sith as I think it should be...' there's no knowing what the conversation was about.

Now you're just being silly and saying Ush is just an EU-hater and that he should be disregarded. Way to go, you're a good-argument hater and you're being disregarded.

As opposed to the argument of "A vague quote supercedes any and all logic of Lucas actually dictating said history!"
EU's not canon? Of course not. However, I'm inclined to take Terry Brooks' word over what Lucas told him over an hour on the phone which he said is what he wrote down over Ush's interpretation of vague time magazine quotes that can be taken several ways, especially when what Lucas said matched up perfectly with previously established EU, which, according to the author, Lucas had quite a bit of collaboration with.

So, um, yeah, let's think...what Terry says means squat...even when Terry's saying what Lucas TOLD him?

Funny, that...but, no, what Lucas says doesn't matter, right?

It doesn't matter if it's coming from Terry, Lightsnake.

...it doesn't matter if it came from Terry who's writing down exactly what GL told him?

Originally posted by IKC

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
Kyber Crystal. First off don't get important information that you plan to use from supershadow.com. Palpatine never used a Kyber Crystal. And the Jedi weren't fooled as easily as everyone seems to believe. During that time the Sith were thought to have died out then Darth Maul appears and killed Qui-Gon, one of the best Jedi of the order at the time. Then Count Dooku appears as the "Sith Lord" and if anything that took them away from finding the Sith Lord because of maybe 2 reasons.

1.) They thought Dooku was the Sith Lord
2.) Clone War

It seemed that Dooku helped throw the Jedi off the trail of finding Palpatine sooner and even then Mace and Yoda sensed the dark side surrounding the Chancellor.

Despite Supershadow being a fake he does occasionly come up with something that makes since. Such as the idea of Palpatine having a Kaiburr crystal. If he did or did not is debatable. But we do know that their was a such thing as a Kaiburr crystal. They have a section on it on starwars.com. Also they did not think Dooku was the head Sith Lord. They did not find out Dooku was a sith until episode 2. And when they did Dooku straight out told Obi-Wan that his master had control of the Senate. They did not believe him but they did not dismiss the possibility either. I think Yoda suspected Palpatine since the beginning of episode 2. remember the look yoda give palpatine when he suggest then that anakin and obi-wan should guard Padme. Despite that though the Jedi were still blind sided. I refuse to believe that Palpatine could take out the Jedi with Mace so easily without some sort of power boost. His power also seemed to match that of Yoda and look how old, wise, intelligent and powerful Yoda was. So either he had some sort of power boost or the Jedi were actualy so weak that they could be so easily beaten. Either way the jedi got creamed. They were definity caught off guard.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Despite Supershadow being a fake he does occasionly come up with something that makes since. Such as the idea of Palpatine having a Kaiburr crystal. If he did or did not is debatable. But we do know that their was a such thing as a Kaiburr crystal. They have a section on it on starwars.com. Also they did not think Dooku was the head Sith Lord. They did not find out Dooku was a sith until episode 2. And when they did Dooku straight out told Obi-Wan that his master had control of the Senate. They did not believe him but they did not dismiss the possibility either. I think Yoda suspected Palpatine since the beginning of episode 2. remember the look yoda give palpatine when he suggest then that anakin and obi-wan should guard Padme. Despite that though the Jedi were still blind sided. I refuse to believe that Palpatine could take out the Jedi with Mace so easily without some sort of power boost. His power also seemed to match that of Yoda and look how old, wise, intelligent and powerful Yoda was. So either he had some sort of power boost or the Jedi were actualy so weak that they could be so easily beaten. Either way the jedi got creamed. They were definity caught off guard.

Wrong. All Dooku said was that a Sith Lord was controlling the Senate and of couse Obi-Wan didn't believe him.

Plus if you look at pictures of Palpatine from any Star Wars movie you will see no crystal shape or form on his body.