Balrog versus Sauron

Started by ares8346 pages
ares834 Senior Member

Originally posted by Allankles
Gothmog killed Men and Elves by the bucketful in the Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (where he cut a bloody swath through the armies of Men and Elves) and the Battle of Gondolin. Only exceptional Elves and Men held their own against him and even then, not for very long.

Not as impssive as this.
"There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart." And never has anyone been able to match Glaurung one on one.
Feanor fought Gothmog one on one and was said to have been wounded several times, you also have to remember Feanor had Elves around him in the Dagor Bragollach.

Feanor did not fight Gothmog one on one.
"Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs..." Sure Gothmog ended up killing Feanor but there were more Balrogs present at the battle and he was "wrapped in fire" clearly suggesting that numerous Balrogs helped take him down.

Incanus Istari

Feanor could kill Glaurung. He held his own against multiple balrogfs for a while.

leonheartmm Senior Member

dont forget, this was faenor AFTER he forged the silmarils,sealing a part of his soul in them and weakening himself.

Incanus Istari

True

leonheartmm Senior Member

point being, faenor rapes EVERYONE. with the possible exception of the highest valar or morgoth or bombadil.

i.e. faenor is a rapist. 😛

Incanus Istari

😂 hahaha if he lived longer he would have raped Luthien then 😄 what, did he rape Varda or something? ptehrwise he wouldnt rape everyone

Allankles Kwisatz Haderach
Originally posted by ares834
Not as impssive as this.
"There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart."

And didn't Gothmog drive "a dark wedge" through the hosts of Men And Elves before he killed Fingon? It's a similar feat.

Glaurung would get killed by a Balrog. His fire breath would have no effect on a fire spirit like a Balrog and if he came within biting range he'd get destroyed by a giant Balrog axe or mace.

The Maiar and Valar would take him, and give Turin fire proof armor and he'd repeat his feat of killing Glaurung. 😛

ares834 Senior Member

Originally posted by Allankles
And didn't Gothmog drive "a dark wedge" through the hosts of Men And Elves before he killed Fingon? It's a similar feat.

He also had "a tide of foes thrice greater than all the force that was left to them" helping him. Glaurung did it by himself.

Glaurung would get killed by a Balrog. His fire breath would have no effect on a fire spirit like a Balrog and if he came within biting range he'd get destroyed by a giant Balrog axe or mace.

But Glaurung is huge. I doubt a Balrog would be able to destroy him. And while the Balrog is hacking away at Glaurung's thick and nearly impenetrable hide, he could claw them with his sword like talons or chomp them with his dagger like teeth. Also Glaurung is incredibly quick, able to easily avoid a sword strike from the heroic Turin.
The Maiar and Valar would take him, and give Turin fire proof armor and he'd repeat his feat of killing Glaurung. 😛

Of course the Valar could take him. But Truin even with flame-proof armour wouldn't be able to. After all Glaurung manage to kill Azaghâl and he defeated Turin without the need of his fires at Nargothrond. Infact Turin almost had fire-proof armour in the form of his dwarf-helm.

Morgromir Senior Member

what was tolkiens description of a balrog did the movies just hake up aton of bs or was it accurate ?

ares834 Senior Member

Originally posted by Morgromir
what was tolkiens description of a balrog did the movies just hake up aton of bs or was it accurate ?

Most likely smaller roughly twice a tall as a man, and man shaped. It was not "on fire" and was a dark figure until its mane blazes with fire. It is unkown if balrogs are winged and there is a huge debate over this. He gives a breif description "'What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.'
Ultimately Tolkien leaves it to our imagination how it looks.

Morgromir Senior Member

hmm thats better than the movie balrog

Allankles Kwisatz Haderach
Originally posted by ares834
He also had "a tide of foes thrice greater than all the force that was left to them" helping him. Glaurung did it by himself.

Actually Gothmog alone "drove a dark wedge through" the hosts of Men and Elves. This was not atributted to Balrogs but Gothmog alone, who drove straight through the Elves and Men to engage Fingon. The other Balrogs are not even mentioned in that instance. There was obviously other fights taking place, but Gothmog drove through the guys around Fingon. Similar feat.

Originally posted by ares834
But Glaurung is huge. I doubt a Balrog would be able to destroy him. And while the Balrog is hacking away at Glaurung's thick and nearly impenetrable hide, he could claw them with his sword like talons or chomp them with his dagger like teeth. Also Glaurung is incredibly quick, able to easily avoid a sword strike from the heroic Turin.

Balrogs are giants themselves, super human giants with giant weapons capable of cleaving through Glaurung's neck in a single swipe. Glaurung's hide wasn't impenetrable, it was only so for human swords and other small arms, not a giant axe wielded by a Balrog.

Besides, Turin already killed Glaurung with a human sized sword.

A Balrog axe would cleave through Glaurung's flesh.

Originally posted by ares834
Of course the Valar could take him. But Truin even with flame-proof armour wouldn't be able to. After all Glaurung manage to kill Azaghâl and he defeated Turin without the need of his fires at Nargothrond. Infact Turin almost had fire-proof armour in the form of his dwarf-helm.

Turin never had fire proof armor to begin with and managed to kill Glaurung with a single critical strike at an opportune moment.

I'm thinking fire proof armor would let him get close in an open situation, where his super skills would come into play. He's done it once, he could do it again.

Allankles Kwisatz Haderach
Originally posted by Morgromir
hmm thats better than the movie balrog

The movie does poorly with the shadows. Because they were supposed to be beings of shadow and fire according to Tolkien, their shapes were vague.

But the movie was accurate on the fire whip but didn't add a second weapon. Balrogs tended to have a whip and another primary weapon.

Also to further support the idea that Balrogs were giants, they were able to kill armies of Men, Elves and Dwarves. The movie Balrog (Durin's Bane) had single handedly killed armies of Dwarves during the thrid age.

This suggests large size, since they mostly used melee weapons, not projectile magic.

ares834 Senior Member

Originally posted by Allankles
Actually Gothmog alone "drove a dark wedge through" the hosts of Men and Elves. This was not atributted to Balrogs but Gothmog alone, who drove straight through the Elves and Men to engage Fingon. The other Balrogs are not even mentioned in that instance. There was obviously other fights taking place, but Gothmog drove through the guys around Fingon. Similar feat.

But he was clearly leading a host of enemies when he created the wedge. It's not a similar feat. Infact the proof is there as Gothmog and another Balrog took down Fingon together.

Balrogs are giants themselves, super human giants with giant weapons capable of cleaving through Glaurung's neck in a single swipe. Glaurung's hide wasn't impenetrable, it was only so for human swords and other small arms, not a giant axe wielded by a Balrog.

Balrogs aren't massive giants. I mean Ecthelion managed to trip one, and Durin's Bane was able to move through a doorway in Moria. Finally in The Book of Lost Tales II, "Then Glorfindel's left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature)..."

Besides, Turin already killed Glaurung with a human sized sword.

By attacking the unprotected underside. I doubt Glaurung is going to flip over and let Gothmog have a good ol' swing.

A Balrog axe would cleave through Glaurung's flesh.

But not his scales.

Turin never had fire proof armor to begin with and managed to kill Glaurung with a single critical strike at an opportune moment.

"and none but Turin defended by his dwarf-mask could withstand the approach of Glaurung." This is the same mask of Azaghâl who was also able to withstand Glaurung's heat.

I'm thinking fire proof armor would let him get close in an open situation, where his super skills would come into play. He's done it once, he could do it again.

Turin tried to attack Glaurung once but the dragon placed Turin under his spell thus he was helpless and defenseless. No way Turin could have beat him in a fair one on one fight. Heck he admits this in The Children of Hurin.

leonheartmm Senior Member

1. in the movie, the balrog DID have a sword which, just like the book, was broken on gandalf's enchanted blade.

2. u must realise that tolkien is EXTREMELY inconsistant. at one time, durin's bane is a power second only to the dark lord and himself a maier, and a little bit later, hes dead by FALLING from a tower.................

similarly, morgoth is thes strongest being in middle earth and a former valar, and a little later his eye is popped by a giant eagle and his foot is permanently damaged by fingolfin.

the same with sauron, how was isildur able to cut his finger?

Incanus Istari

Because he used Narsil. Or what was left of it, a dwarven sword enchanted by elves, that would cut. Gandalfs sword belonged to Turgon.... He killed another balrog and it was kind of a coincindence......

Translate my sig and you will find out....... Was inscribed alonbg Glamdring......

leonheartmm Senior Member

the same sword which broke under his footfall.

Incanus Istari

That was movie ****. In the book it broke beneath Elendil when he fell. (He was hit by a giant guy with a big metal stick, and he had armor on and was 7'11 thats alot of weight.)

leonheartmm Senior Member

the POINT im making is that they are very inconcistant. think about it, the trees were made by ONE valar{im a bit hazy} and not even the strongest and then they are unable to recreate the silmarils which only have a PART of the tree's light.

balrogs dying by falling from towers and being stabbed by helmets. when infact they are maier.

etc etc.

ares834 Senior Member

Originally posted by Incanus
Gandalfs sword belonged to Turgon.... He killed another balrog and it was kind of a coincindence......

I don't recall Turgon killing a Balrog. And even if he did in the Silmarillion it would be before the Balrog "reboot" where Balrogs were made more powerful and less numerous, before it Tuor was able to slay 5 balrogs and Ecthelion 4.