The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Nephthys
I had a delightful argument with him about Loghain (from Dragon Age). Apparantly plunging your kingdom into a costly and pointless civil-war while being invaded by zombie rape monsters while killing off the group specialised to stop them, solely because of your own paranoid, batshit insane reasons and making the worst tactical moves again and again makes you a 'great man' in Quans eyes.

Because making 'tough calls' makes you a great man. Even if the call you make is crazy and retarded.

That's just wrong.

No, he really thinks that.

Lord Lucien
Quan admires his own kind.

I'm convinced he is the reincarnation of he who earned the sobriquet "Rudy."

Quans been here since 2007, which was before Rdy I theenk.

So yes, after 4 years he's at this level.

Oh.

Well I suppose my theory was a surprisingly generous explanation for his personality, even when I didn't mean for it to be. mmm

But enough talk about the child. He might like the attention. Let's talk about how Revan was totally the Emperor's pawn. 131

When is your quote talking about? When he was Darth Revan or when he was a captive?

Neph
When is your quote talking about? When he was Darth Revan or when he was a captive?

Ask my Weapon, Lucius.

Presumably, since it comes from the files you all have, it is referring to the Emperor using Revan to see visions of the Jedi, which is the first quote I provided as evidence.

Yeah but when? Obviously Revan wasn't in control when he was the Emperor's prisoner, but iirc you were arguing that Revan was always his pawn, despite Revan working against him as Darth and Prodigal Knight Revan.

Everything Revan did until his death points to him being the opposite of a pawn.

Neph
Yeah but when? Obviously Revan wasn't in control when he was the Emperor's prisoner, but iirc you were arguing that Revan was always his pawn, despite Revan working against him as Darth and Prodigal Knight Revan.

Not at all. Revan wasn't always the Emperor's pawn in the same way that Vader wasn't always Palpatine's, Padme wasn't always Palpatine's, the Exile wasn't always Kreia's, etc. Being a pawn isn't necessarily permanent, it is simply when one is used to further the purposes of another, which Revan did.

Please enlighten us Gideon, how exactly did the Emperor's "vision of the jedi", whatever the hell that means, help him in his quest for dt dominance? Because, you know, he attacked 300 years later, had the war last almost 3 decades, and nothing was still decided. So I ask again, how did it help? Also, what kind of vision does Revan paint of the jedi that would be relevant to the Emperor? During Revan's time, most of the jedi were wiped out, and even moreso after his disappearance so the Emperor got a vision of dead jedi? Finally, the Emperor lay behind the shadows for over a millennium so he could have infiltrated the Jedi at any point.

I don't suppose it occurred to you that the ability to monitor his enemies during their reconstruction through Revan would be of benefit to the Emperor?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I don't suppose it occurred to you that the ability to monitor his enemies during their reconstruction through Revan would be of benefit to the Emperor?

DS
What reconstruction? The only reconstruction that occurred was slowly in the middle of, and mostly after KOTOR II. There was no reconstruction until revan was long gone.

No, I get that, but the text indicates that the Emperor used Revan to supernaturally monitor the Jedi through visions. I'm not sure that it requires him to be present.

Teasing aside, I seriously don't understand why you're so opposed to this.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
No, I get that, but the text indicates that the Emperor used Revan to supernaturally monitor the Jedi through visions. I'm not sure that it requires him to be present.

Teasing aside, I seriously don't understand why you're so opposed to this.

DS
Because it sounds dumber than anything I've ever heard of,

Me
You seek to disregard the quote and its source simply because it doesn't support your worldview of how things ought to be[...]

^ These are my words on the other thread and I think you've proven them beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm not debating the quality of the writing. Using Revan as some sort of mechanism to induce visions is horrible given what we know of the Force, but there are plenty of other equally absurd and equally canon characters, events, and mechanisms to be found within the saga. (Though I will point out that The Clone Wars episode "Children of the Force" indicates that Force users can be "trained in the dark side to peer into every corner of the galaxy from afar" so there is basis for this.)

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
^ These are my words on the other thread and I think you've proven them beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm not debating the quality of the writing. Using Revan as some sort of mechanism to induce visions is horrible given what we know of the Force, but there are plenty of other equally absurd and equally canon characters, events, and mechanisms to be found within the saga. (Though I will point out that The Clone Wars episode "Children of the Force" indicates that Force users can be "trained in the dark side to peer into every corner of the galaxy from afar" so there is basis for this.)

So when I call PIS because something makes zero sense in any form of canon or reality, it's because this something doesn't support my view? That's an interesting rationalization on your part. And no, I doubt it gets any dumber than what Bioware's come up with. But that's the thing about rationalizations, once you use them, you can stop the debate.

DS
So when I call PIS because something makes zero sense in any form of canon or reality, it's because this something doesn't support my view?

You didn't call the quote PIS, you called it non-canon. These terms are not synonymous; for example, Savage Opress's powers being enhanced by Nightsister magic is PIS, but it is also canon. You're denying the validity of the quotes (effectively calling it non-canon) because you don't like that it paints Revan out to be a pawn. Dislike it all you like, that's your prerogative and there's plenty about this game to dislike based on the spoilers, but it doesn't make it less canon.

DS
That's an interesting rationalization on your part. And no, I doubt it gets any dumber than what Bioware's come up with. But that's the thing about rationalizations, once you use them, you can stop the debate.

Read The Glove of Darth Vader and you'll change your mind.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
You didn't call the quote PIS, you called it non-canon. These terms are not synonymous; for example, Savage Opress's powers being enhanced by Nightsister magic is PIS, but it [b]is also canon. You're denying the validity of the quotes (effectively calling it non-canon) because you don't like that it paints Revan out to be a pawn. Dislike it all you like, that's your prerogative and there's plenty about this game to dislike based on the spoilers, but it doesn't make it less canon.

DS
I'm denying the validity of them because they do not appear to be [b]consistent with any of the games.[/b]

You have not indicated how this is so. We don't interact with Revan, who by all accounts was the only one with a grasp of the full picture. All we have is speculation on the part of Kreia as to Revan's ultimate agenda. But here I give you the words of the man himself on the matter and you disregard it because it doesn't fit in with speculation from characters with limited knowledge on the matter? That doesn't wash.

DS
I'm calling it PIS if they are indeed canon and since this game is nothing but a beta so far, there's no real "canon" in any sense of the word (according to Drew).

If you'd like to set the quotes aside because the game is still in beta form, that is acceptable.