Honestly, my view of the discrepancies is not as severe as it once was. I think if we examine Luke's abilities holistically, the evidence indicates that he is the single most effective fighter in the mythos due to a combination of several factors-- but that he's not infallible and that any reasonably talented warrior stands a chance of either holding their own against him or defeating him outright.
Now if the question becomes who is strongest with the Force, then Luke has at least one superior in the form of Abeloth and possibly another in the form of his father. If the question becomes who is the most skilled/learned with the Force, then Palpatine takes the trophy.
Midi-chlorians aren't strength, though. They're potential, which can be realized or not, depending on a variety of different circumstances.
Luke had a better upbringing, and generally handled his Jedi training better than did his father. So even if their potential were identical, Luke's realized potential is far greater.
I also again heavily dispute that only Anakin had the highest count ever, because that precludes a multitude of Force users that came before him that outperformed him in a variety of different Force techniques.
Well said Moosie.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Strength in the Force is determined by midichlorian count, Neph, as I tried to explain to you in a previous thread.Anakin and Luke were from birth stronger in the Force than Palpatine, Yoda, Dooku, etc. and so forth.
And yet Anakin was not able to overpower Kenobi in a direct Force battle. Strength in the Force is not completely dependent on midichlorians, as I tried to explain to you in that previous thread.
Hell, Nihilus didn't even have midichlorians anymore. 🙄
SM
Midi-chlorians aren't strength, though. They're potential, which can be realized or not, depending on a variety of different circumstances.
No, midichlorians communicate with the Force; the higher the midichlorian count, the greater one's natural connection to the Force is.
What midichlorians aren't is skill, which is what you refer to as "actualized potential."
The Phantom Menace
QUI-GON : The Force is unusally strong with him, that much is clear. Who
was his father?
^ Qui-Gon flat out says that nine-year-old Anakin, with zero formal training, is unusually strong in the Force. I can collect further quotes if need be, but it is a distinction that's fairly simple to understand.
Neph
How about this quote?Darth Sidious: Darth Vader will [b]become
more powerful than either of us? [/B]
😐
I'm not saying that Anakin was ever as "powerful" as Luke, or Yoda and Sidious for that matter. There is a distinction between strength in the Force/Force potential/midichlorian count and who is more powerful-- which is usually determined by skill and training.
Gideon's Palpatine essay
The Complete Encyclopedia, Volume I, page 285, concludes thus:
“The Jedi Knights discovered that the Force was accessible to all living beings through the presence of midichlorians in their cells. The more midichlorians inhabiting a being’s cells, the more the being was able to connect to the Force. However, a high concentration of midichlorians did not guarantee a being control of the Force. Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.”
^ This sums up the distinction quite well. More midichlorians equals more natural strength in the Force, but not skill/control/"power."
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
No, midichlorians communicate with the Force; the higher the midichlorian count, the greater one's natural connection to the Force is.What midichlorians aren't is skill, which is what you refer to as "actualized potential."
You're losing sight of the argument here.
Qui-Gon explicitly states that you communicate to the Force through midi-chlorians, and that Anakin has "even more than Master Yoda". What he doesn't state is that this directly means Force strength. I don't think anyone here would argue that Anakin Skywalker could overcome Yoda in the Force alone. Or even with a saber for that matter.
Having a strong connection and having the greatest strength ever are not the same idea. If I have a great cable connection but I don't utilize it or it's clogged with traffic from other users, no matter how many MB/sec my ISP claims I can get, I'm still getting a fraction of that. The strong connection is not realized, because it is not being used to its fullest potential for whatever reasons.
This is similar; Anakin never realized his potential, and therefore he cannot arguably be "stronger" than anyone else ever because of this fact. On the opposite end we have Luke who matured, was not gimped in capability by a traumatic event, was not a thrall to a greedy master, and actually branched out Force techniques which are seemingly unique. Luke may not have entirely consistent showings because EU has not been kind to him, but he has shown higher showings and knowledge of the Force by far than Anakin.
I'm not saying that Anakin was ever as "powerful" as Luke, or Yoda and Sidious for that matter. There is a distinction between strength in the Force/Force potential/midichlorian count and who is more powerful-- which is usually determined by skill and training.
Right, because that's clear. But a method of deducing who has the "stronger" connection to the Force and thereby having greater power at a given moment (or over the course of a story arc/lifetime, etc.) we have to use examples of actual Force mastery, not just blanket quotes blown up into arguments which ignore context.
Anakin's connection was amplified by his increased midi-chlorian count. But his ability to master the Force, mentally and emotionally, was retarded by his own personality and life, and in the end he demonstrated less understanding of it and mastery of it than his own son.
So the argument is basically what I said all along.
Strength in the Force is determined by midichlorian count, Neph, as I tried to explain to you in a previous thread.
^ This is incorrect, because it assumes that greater connection necessarily leads to greater strength, but that ignores context and variables.
Neph
I really hate it when you get us into these retarded semantics debates. Especially since we were talking about a 'power list' in the first place.
The 'retarded semantic debate' was clearly significant enough to warrant an explicit entry in the vast compendium of knowledge that is the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, so in return for graciously accepting your concession, I'll kindly ask that you cease your b1tching. sneer