The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by truejedi
1.All of these things are terrible. 10 percent flat tax? Maybe with an abolition of income tax, but as it is, income tax insures that the poor already pay an additional 7 to 12 percent taxes on almost all of their income while rich people save and invest theirs without that additional tax burden. The rich SPEND only a fraction of their money, making sales tax an uneven tax distribution that favors the weathy.

2.Health Care needs to be nationalized... making it free-market with today's prices insures that someone who can't pay the monthly premium goes without good healthcare, and that's just morally reprehensible. The american dream is a farce: Born at the bottom, stays at the bottom, and then dies without good healthcare is a very real scenario. Becoming the wealthy through hard work is a lie the wealthy use to keep the poor from complaining too loudly.

3.curb the power of labor unions? Seriously? Put even MORE power in the hands of the people who already have all of the power.

4.Remind me to be thankful you don't get to decide things.

1.The rich already pay a majority of taxes. Everyone should pay the same rate. its only fair. or we should abolish all taxes. Im for a 9-10% flattax with everyone paying the same rate.

2.Are you serious?!. With free healthcare lines would be INSANELY long, healthcare would be SHIT(like in europe there healthcare SUCKS), the economy would be bankrupt. Things would suck. Universal healthcare is a joke.

And also most rich people(like 90%) are rich because they work hard. Sure some abuse the system and are born in to wealth ie donald trump but most are good people. And also many people who are poor are low-lifes who would rather stick needles in there arms then you know, get a job?. Not all working class are like that some are born into it and cant get out but many abuse the system.

3.Labor unions abuse there power. Period. Many of them are corrupt idiots.

4.Free Markets and limited government + laissez faire economics are the way to go.

Look at Hong Kong. was a JOKE until it embraced free market capitalism.

Now its a propsering power.

Look at singapore there a HUGE powr because of one 3 words

Free Market Capitalism.

Look at South korea. North Korea took the road of socialism(which you support) and South Korea embraced free market capitalism.

South Korea is doing great, North Korea is SHIT IN THE ****ING TOLIET.

CLearly your ignorant on politics and just believe the lies of the liberal media. I hope some day you would read the works of the great economist Milton Friedman or read about free market economics and see through the lies of the liberal media.

Until then, sorry but all your ideas suck. They were tried in greece to the max and europe.

And guess what! western europe & greece suck because of government intervention!.

Free Markets are the way to go.

In response to Master Hans ignorant post.

feel free to provide it.

Okay retard. Do you even KNOW what nationalized healthcare is?.

its taking money from you know the successful and turning healthcare into SHIT healthcare. Its a joke.

Look at greece. They had MASSIVE DEBT, MASSIVE WELFARE, EXTREME UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE. And they went broke LOL. Look at all of europe its literally FALING into peaces because of how much of a joke it is.

America will go down the same road if we continue to let these idiotic liberal socialist democrats n office continue his anti-american, pro-government, and deceving politics.

Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania have ALL embraced small government privatized pensions and flat tax rates.

And guess what!.

THEIR BOOMING LIKE HONG KONG!.

Unlike Europe which is in the SHIT grinder. People have to SHARE THE SAME BATHROOMS AND THE SAME HOUSE MAD NASTY.

As someone who has family from that region, I know first hand how ridicuolus it is.

And Master Hand your a ignorant buffon on Ronald Reagan.

1.Reagan opposed Aparthied. He spoke out against it calling it racist. He was just against sancations. Like you know LIBERALS ARE AGAINST NOW FOR IRAN!(idiot). And nether Carter or LBJ or JFK did anything on it.

2.Reagan never raised taxes idiot. Actually he CLOSED THE LOOPHOLES OF TAXES.

And when he did!.

THE RICH PAIED MORE BECAUSE TAXES WERE SIMPLE AND EVERYONE PAYED THE SAME RATE!.

20% across the board!.

3.And your a idiot. Buddy educate yourself on Reagan.

Reagan had to fix the shit of the bumbling liberal IDIOT jimmy carter a COMPLETE JOKE.

And lets not even ignore the fact Democrats have persuded RACIST and ANTI-FREE MARKET PRO-GOVERNMENT EXTREME INTERVENTION policies since day one.

Do we really need to get into this?.

Because I will have no problem destroying you on this.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
europe its literally FALING into peaces because of how much of a joke it is.

Zampan
Government is great. It's the politicians that you have to watch out for.

You're not around often enough. Where do you keep disappearing to?

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader

Okay retard. Do you even KNOW what nationalized healthcare is?.

its taking money from you know the successful and turning healthcare into SHIT healthcare. Its a joke.

[...]

THE RICH PAIED MORE BECAUSE TAXES WERE SIMPLE AND EVERYONE PAYED THE SAME RATE!.

20% across the board!.

I sense a contradiction in the Force...

Health Care needs to be nationalized... making it free-market with today's prices insures that someone who can't pay the monthly premium goes without good healthcare, and that's just morally reprehensible. The american dream is a farce: Born at the bottom, stays at the bottom, and then dies without good healthcare is a very real scenario. Becoming the wealthy through hard work is a lie the wealthy use to keep the poor from complaining too loudly.

curb the power of labor unions? Seriously? Put even MORE power in the hands of the people who already have all of the power.

Remind me to be thankful you don't get to decide things.

Anyone know a good site, say the equivalent of photobucket, but for documents?

People hating the rich because their rich...mad low.

I hate Sundays.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
People hating the rich because their rich...mad low.

Rich people are assholes.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
People hating the rich because their rich...mad low.

(most) Rich people I'm (usually) OK with. People who confuse "their" and "they're", on the other hand...

Leave him alone. The Palin administration wreaked hell on the school system.

For all the talk of Bush being a horrible president, Obama has offered no better alternative

Originally posted by look at my junk
For all the talk of Bush being a horrible president, Obama has offered no better alternative

Agreed. we agree on many things.

I've begun listening to Matt Stover's ROTS novel in audiobook format on the long commute to my apartment from home.

I tend to forget just how damn good that story is, Stover's fetish for relentless purple prose notwithstanding. Makes an annoying trip less annoying.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Government is great. It's the politicians that you have to watch out for.

Honestly, this sentiment is as naïve as profession of the exact opposite. Government is comprised entirely of politicians; every policy, organ, or apparatus originates with politicians. They're the cogs, the belts, the wheels, the gears, the levers, and the hands on the levers.

Government can be as dangerous as the absence of government. And I would amend your statement as follows: It's the politicianspeople that you have to watch out for. Politicians are only as incompetent or obstructionist as the people who fund and elect them.

Reasonable government is great. A government that intervenes when and where it should and nothing more.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Honestly, this sentiment is as naïve as profession of the exact opposite. Government is comprised entirely of politicians; every policy, organ, or apparatus originates with politicians. They're the cogs, the belts, the wheels, the gears, the levers, and the hands on the levers.

<snip>

Reasonable government is great. A government that intervenes when and where it should and nothing more.

Did i just get called a liberal? Did that really Just happen?

Originally posted by Zampanó
I freely admit that some subtlety went out the window in my rush to contradict him. But I hardly think that our positions are equally extreme, let alone equally naive.

Well you would.

Originally posted by Zampanó
The libertarian republican stance axiomatically excludes one of the most powerful tools a society has to effect change (specifically: government).

Not at all. In your rush to contradict me, you conflate the libertarian cry for minimal government with a cry for* no government at all.

Originally posted by Zampanó
The opposite wing of the spectrum is eager to utilize that tool but rarely do we forget that it is a double edged sword. Use with caution is hardly the polar opposite of total abstinence.

And as it stands, are we not in the middle of a political scandal involving a leftist regime authorizing widespread and arguably unconstitutional domestic espionage?

The danger of ideologues is that they are quick to claim that one has a better grasp of the responsibilities and roles of proper government and that their ideologies preclude or limit abuse of that power.

Ultimately, I'm speaking more to the political spectrum than the political parties that indicate points along it. You go too far in one direction, you'll end up with anarchy or totalitarianism and neither leads to a healthy society.

Which is why I maintain that government can be great just as it can be wicked.

Rhetorically confining the pitfalls of government to politicians might make for a clever soundbyte, but when you realize that politicians are government, you understand that the words ring hollow. And then when you consider that politicians are simply people who are put into power by lots of other people, then you begin to fathom just how pervasive the problem really is.

I'm a registered Democrat but tend to be pretty moderate in most affairs. But Beefy is as right to question government as you are to support it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well you would.

Rhetorically confining the pitfalls of government to politicians might make for a clever soundbyte, but when you realize that politicians are government, you understand that the words ring hollow. And then when you consider that politicians are simply people who are put into power by lots of other people, then you begin to fathom just how pervasive the problem really is.

I'm a registered Democrat but tend to be pretty moderate in most affairs. But Beefy is as right to question government as you are to support it.

Actually my (one, introductory) polisci class pointed out that the current economy of influence on Capital Hill is not an intentional part of the system. That is, the distortion of incentives leading to corruption and preventing bipartisan collaboration is a flaw of the way we select people as representatives, not a flaw in the government system itself. So there is some distinction that can be made between governors and government. (The problem was gerrymandering, I think. But your points are well made.)