Originally posted by Zampanó
Or, you know, we could have a completely reasonable government intervention in an area that is literally the textbook case of market failure. But, whatever, sweet baby Ron Paul doesn't like his toys being taken away so we'd better not upset him.
Remind me the last time we had "reasonable government intervention".
Every time it paves our highways, maintains our public schooling system, and enforces the civil rights acts?
Yeah, that sounds strangely communistic and all when you read it wrong, but issues with our government stem more from incompetence than an inherent inferiority of public services compared to the Almighty free market...
Originally posted by Zampanó
Or, you know, we could have a completely reasonable government intervention in an area that is literally the textbook case of market failure. But, whatever, sweet baby Ron Paul doesn't like his toys being taken away so we'd better not upset him.
When has the last time the government did anything good?.
In the great depression had the government, you know let the market work the depression would have ended as early as 1936 without Roosevelts policies.
The more the government is keept out of things, the better.
"government is not the solution, it is the problem" - Ronald Reagan
words stated by the greatest president of all time that still apply today.
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Universal healthcare is a complete joke.
Notice how you dodged my question? 😉
Provide a single example of purely privatized healthcare working in "reality". Oh, wait, you can't!
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader "government is not the solution, it is the problem" - Ronald Reaganwords stated by the greatest president of all time that still apply today.
The "greatest president of all time" certainly didn't praise a senator whose primary "achievement" was a record filibuster attempt on the civil rights act, nor did he condone the apartheid government in South Africa, nor did he do nothing about the AIDS epidemic. Did I mention his tripling of the deficit? For the first time since, IIRC, WW1, we were a debtor rather than a creditor nation. 🙄
I like this new guy.
When has the last time the government did anything good?.
Government is great. It's the politicians that you have to watch out for.
Notice how you dodged my question?Provide a single example of purely privatized healthcare working in "reality". Oh, wait, you can't!
America during the 50s, dumbass?.
The "greatest president of all time" certainly didn't praise a senator whose primary "achievement" was a record filibuster attempt on the civil rights act, nor did he condone the apartheid government in South Africa, nor did he do nothing about the AIDS epidemic. Did I mention his tripling of the deficit? For the first time since, IIRC, WW1, we were a debtor rather than a creditor nation.
LOL!. Are you ****ing serious?.
Reagan
-Defeated the Soviet Union.
-Cut taxes and helped balance the budget.
-Lead us into a era of prosperity.
-Helped America REGAIN its rightful place as the greatest country in the world.
And oh yeah Reagan opposed apartheid, genius. And the anti-government forces in South Africa were terrorists.
Clearly your a complete liberal idiot and a troll.
1.Highways.
2.Preventing American families from starving is usually a difficult thing to demonize, so "food stamps."
3.We kicked polio's ass.
After the disastrous Laissez-faire policies that allowed Morgan, Chase, and Rockefeller to monopolize the country on the backs of child-labor, we managed to implement some socially effective labor laws.
5.Food regulation is something you will never take for granted after you read The Jungle by Sinclair (although tbh the meatpacking factories today are also horrific).Government is great. It's the politicians that you have to watch out for.
1.You know, could be built JUST as good by private companies?.
2.Most people on welfare/food stamps are liars/cheats. its a joke.
3.Individuals?.
4.Want to talk about monopolies?. Look at the government owning massive amounts of corporations and abusing its power shutting down Businesses and attacking the rich. And obviously im for Child-Labor laws lol.
Government should be small. Period.
5.And whats the alternative....going vegetarian 🙄 🙄
The government is a joke. Taxing the rich is retarded. The rich ALREADY pay more taxes BY FAR then anyother income group.
What we need is a simple Flat Tax were everyone pays the same rate across the board, 10%.
What we need is a free-market healthcare system.
What we need is to get rid of all these insane regulations imposed by government which curb growth and hurt small businesse.
We also need to curb the power of Labor Unions.
So yeah the real problem IS the government. And it is corporations to a extent but thats because corporations can only get super big and abusive BECAUSE of the government.
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
America during the 50s, dumbass?.
😉 I seem to recall hospital costs doubling in the fifties. But if you have any actual data to support your contention that the 50s health care was:
1. A relatively "pure" market based system
2. Better than modern universal systems in many Western nations
feel free to provide it.
LOL!. Are you ****ing serious?.
Reagan
Hang on here. Don't you understand burden of proof? We're not arguing whether or not he was a serviceable president; we're arguing whether or not he's the "greatest of all time", and you certainly can't pass up his list of severe failures with the counter proposal below; at best, you establish his administration as bittersweet. The GOAT? Did he free the slaves now?
-Defeated the Soviet Union.
-Cut taxes and helped balance the budget.
-Lead us into a era of prosperity.
Ignoring the factual inaccuracies here (ie., he actually raised federal taxes on multiple occasions, and hardly defeated the USSR singlehandedly), does this compensate for his moral failures in his condoning of apartheid, or his pathetic handling of the AIDs epidemic?
-Helped America REGAIN its rightful place as the greatest country in the world.
...by making us a debtor nation?
And oh yeah Reagan opposed apartheid, genius. And the anti-government forces in South Africa were terrorists.Clearly your a complete liberal idiot and a troll. [/B]
He opposed apartheid? Maybe if you pressed him in an interview he'd say so, but he never did anything about it, and gave money and support to the apartheid government.
Originally posted by Zampanó
The national parks are gems of the modern age.
NASA is a goldmine of innovation the continually churns out new useful tech.
Highways.
Preventing American families from starving is usually a difficult thing to demonize, so "food stamps."
We kicked polio's ass.
After the disastrous Laissez-faire policies that allowed Morgan, Chase, and Rockefeller to monopolize the country on the backs of child-labor, we managed to implement some socially effective labor laws.
Food regulation is something you will never take for granted after you read The Jungle by Sinclair (although tbh the meatpacking factories today are also horrific).
^ This. Also, child labor laws, the civil rights act, the voting rights act, etc.
Government itself is a means to an end that can be used for good or evil, but diehard fiscal conservatives seem to believe that the government does evil just by existing...even when its policies are good (??).
Unless, of course, if you're also a diehard social conservative, or a neo-con, in which case you have no problem selectively "forgetting" about your whole anti-government-power stance.
Please do not mis-quote me in the future. (You cut the national parks line, which was my opener for a reason.)
1. Lol no. Tragedy of the commons. Even DS will back me on this one.
Spoiler:
The Interstate System was a military operation to begin with, and also doubles as an emergency Shuttle landing strip. So none of these are appropriate private enterprises.
When the government "intervened" on all those liberties you enjoy. It was very PATRIOTic of them.
As to the highways and all that other crap, that's something we pay for and most of the highways look like shit anyways.
Preventing American families from starving is usually a difficult thing to demonize, so "food stamps."
After the disastrous Laissez-faire policies that allowed Morgan, Chase, and Rockefeller to monopolize the country on the backs of child-labor, we managed to implement some socially effective labor laws.
Government is not great. I believe it's only purpose is to serve the people(I know that sounds generic), not butt in. You can't say the government is great but it's the politicians you have to watch out for when you can't separate the government from the politicians.
As you can tell, I'm all about Laissez-faire as far as economics go at least. I believe the government has no place in economics.
The Interstate System was a military operation to begin with, and also doubles as an emergency Shuttle landing strip. So none of these are appropriate private enterprises.
1. A relatively "pure" market based system
Originally posted by samfreedman77I'm sorry, but the modern universal systems of Europe are shit. They say so themselves.
It's funny that you say that, when said systems are ranked higher in practically every analysis of healthcare quality ever published (but I suppose all the experts are communists), not to mention the fact that we spend more of our GDP on healthcare than any other country, more than any of the apparently "super-expensive" universal systems.
To give an anecdote, when my grandmother (in Canada) had cancer, she received her own wheelchair, a breathing apparatus, a personal nurse, chemotherapy, radiation, and a host of other medical services for the grand total cost of a few hundred dollars. They would have had to sell the house if America won the war of 1812. 😉 Hardly an isolated incident, when the vast majority of all bankruptcies in the US stem from health insurance bills.
Healthcare simply isn't a commodity. If a poor person wants a Ferrari, you might be able to give the "just work harder!" motto without sounding like a dick. But when said person's daughter needs an expensive, life saving surgery, there simply isn't time to plan your long term goals. You don't know when you're going to get sick, and if you're caught in the financial dumps, your life can turn upside down pretty quick.
It's funny that you say that, when said systems are ranked higher in practically every analysis of healthcare quality ever published (but I suppose all the experts are communists), not to mention the fact that we spend more of our GDP on healthcare than any other country, more than any of the apparently "super-expensive" universal systems.
Also, show me these rankings. I bet next thing you're going to tell me is the standard of living is higher in those countries. I happened to be in 4 of the 5 countries ranked highest for standard of living, in 2011 and let me tell you, there's some weird measurement of standard of living in Europe. Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland. All fantastic places, but their standard of living is nothing compared to what we have here.
The problem with your mindset and the mindset of others who believe in "free" healthcare is that you don't realize that healthcare isn't free. The cost just goes on to something else, like your pretty ridiculous tax rates. So free healthcare is just redistributed cost. I have many European and Israeli friends who say their healthcare is shit and would much rather have ours.
What we need is a simple Flat Tax were everyone pays the same rate across the board, 10%.What we need is a free-market healthcare system.
What we need is to get rid of all these insane regulations imposed by government which curb growth and hurt small businesse.
We also need to curb the power of Labor Unions.
So yeah the real problem IS the government. And it is corporations to a extent but thats because corporations can only get super big and abusive BECAUSE of the government.
All of these things are terrible. 10 percent flat tax? Maybe with an abolition of income tax, but as it is, income tax insures that the poor already pay an additional 7 to 12 percent taxes on almost all of their income while rich people save and invest theirs without that additional tax burden. The rich SPEND only a fraction of their money, making sales tax an uneven tax distribution that favors the weathy.
Health Care needs to be nationalized... making it free-market with today's prices insures that someone who can't pay the monthly premium goes without good healthcare, and that's just morally reprehensible. The american dream is a farce: Born at the bottom, stays at the bottom, and then dies without good healthcare is a very real scenario. Becoming the wealthy through hard work is a lie the wealthy use to keep the poor from complaining too loudly.
curb the power of labor unions? Seriously? Put even MORE power in the hands of the people who already have all of the power.
Remind me to be thankful you don't get to decide things.
With all due respect, saying the Wealthy as a group don't gain their wealth through their own sweat blood and tears is complete bullshit. Sure, there are some that come from wealthiness, but make no mistake--Lower class citizens are in many cases (though not all) lower class because they don't make a life for themselves. My father didn't come from wealthy origins to be considered upper class... He worked like crazy to obtain his goals in life.
Originally posted by truejedi
All of these things are terrible. 10 percent flat tax? Maybe with an abolition of income tax, but as it is, income tax insures that the poor already pay an additional 7 to 12 percent taxes on almost all of their income while rich people save and invest theirs without that additional tax burden. The rich SPEND only a fraction of their money, making sales tax an uneven tax distribution that favors the weathy.Health Care needs to be nationalized... making it free-market with today's prices insures that someone who can't pay the monthly premium goes without good healthcare, and that's just morally reprehensible. The american dream is a farce: Born at the bottom, stays at the bottom, and then dies without good healthcare is a very real scenario. Becoming the wealthy through hard work is a lie the wealthy use to keep the poor from complaining too loudly.
curb the power of labor unions? Seriously? Put even MORE power in the hands of the people who already have all of the power.
Remind me to be thankful you don't get to decide things.
tj i think i luv u