Originally posted by The_TempestBut DARTH POWER is alleging that the Zabraks didn't have a chance of beating Sidious and yet threatened him throughout the entire lightsaber duel. That's a far cry from a brief advantage due to circumstance and/or rage.
I alleged Sidious was putting effort into the Saber duel. He would have won it after flattening Opress with a kick as he likely would have had time to take Maul down 1 on 1 (assuming he didn't use his Force powers to knock him out like he did).
Originally posted by psmith81992
The packers aren't making the playoffs without Rodgers, and Rodgers isn't coming back from a broken collarbone in 4 weeks. I don't care how many varsity blues/brett favre drugs he takes. The most disappointing thing about yesterday was Kaepernick and the Niners. They look like a completely different team from last year. Yes, they have a few injuries but not enough to justify the lack of focus.
Yeah, I hate to admit it but team doctors' diagnosis in terms of how many weeks players are going to miss due to injury is, a lot of times, inaccurate.
And yes, the Niners aren't as good this year. But I'm not sure how far the Seahawks are going. This year I can't see a team that is definitely and undoubtedly going to the Super Bowl.
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
D'uh. No, bro.
"Sidious" was ruling unopposed, before Illustrious, IKC and myself came along. And the "Antedeluvians" were named moving against Revan fanboys and not Sidious supporters. Who still always were the vast majority of people in this forum, believe it or not.
By your own admission, “many people supporting Sidious weren’t voicing their opinion in elaborate replies that often.” When Lightsnake came along, many threads rapidly devolved into antediluvians attacking him (and him alone) en masse. They weren’t the underdogs.
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
*Sigh*
I, quite frankly, have enough of that rubbish, Gideon. I've told you multiple times, that I don't argue my personal convictions here, I have made allusions - and you've even quoted one of them right above - that I'm rather more on your side on that particular question, than on the other. That you have chosen to outright ignore all of this, isn't my problem now, is it?
Yes, you’ve claimed your personal convictions don’t enter the equation. I’m telling you that’s total bullshit and that if you were such a mercenary—if your platforms were so flexible and impersonal—we’d see a bit more variety in your post history. But even when the antediluvians were dominant, you were riding shotgun on the Sidious-defaming bandwagon.
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
The last time you brought this topic up, I gave you a nice number of links, showing rather well how I've argued the superiority of Ancient Sith, Kun, TOTJ era Jedi against the PT era Jedi [with all possible implications about Sidious going from there]. You even complained about me using pro-Sidious argument in one thread while attacking them on another at the same time.
Addressed: we’re discussing tendencies and inclinations, not absolutes and specifics. That Republican Senator Mark Kirk openly supports gay marriage doesn’t mean he's a Democrat.
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
And I frankly don't see a reason why I should lie in that regard. If I felt the urge for "Anti Sidious rhetorics", I would first dissemble your essay and then tear the character of Sidious to shreds. He is just a villain of a franchise, that was called "B-movie material" by its own maker. I could give you a rather long list of fictional characters, that make Sidious look like a bad substitute for a good one. But where would be a point of that in the context of this very forum?
Why might you lie? Prefacing this with the warning that we’d be opening the cover of Speculation & Psychoanalysis, Digital Edition, I’ll indulge.
You’ve gone to great lengths over a number of years to present yourself as the consummate mercenary poster, infallibly objective and impeccably reasonable, who has risen above the petty foibles of the Common Man. For you to be revealed as a man who suffers from the same ailments as we plebes—those fools who prefer certain characters over others and debate accordingly, perhaps even allowing such preferences to dictate or otherwise influence the manner in which they debate—would compromise your carefully manufactured impression management.
Then you’d be crushed beneath His Imperial Majesty’s magnificently booted heel.
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
So what is your point, aside of crying how bad and unfriendly Uncle Nai was to you? None. Well. Thought so.
Uncle Nai sounds like someone who, despite never being featured in any family photo album, shows up at childhood sports events in a van with blacked-out windows and offers candy, encouraging winks, and opportunities for “private; secret, really,” lessons that somehow require us both to be completely nude and why do I have to breathe into this rag, Uncle Nai? My God, is that chloroform?! Oh sh—
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
And once more.
"Anti Sidious rhetoric"? It's more an anti-fanboy rhetoric, with you being on the receiving side due to your own choices. I've cramped enough philosophical explanations and hints regarding logic in eight years worth of postings, in order to enable you to change the way you make arguments. You refused to use it, and stick to your old ways, pointing to your essay over and over again.After that you complain about getting lectured on the same flaws in your reasoning by me. Seriously? That's like touching a hotplate, after getting told that it is hot, just to get burned and then touch it once again just to complain about getting burned a second time. Does that make sense on your side of the fence?
You’re missing the point entirely. The problem isn’t that your baleful gaze is permanently fixed on me; I expect to be a central figure in the lives of others.
It’s just what, when you talk about how you’re only playing the Devil’s advocate and that personal convictions don’t enter into the equation and you deliberately change positions like underwear and your only goal is to improve your English and test your mettle against others… I can’t help but scratch my head.
You routinely insult my intelligence and the strength of my arguments, so I clearly don’t provide the challenge you seek. (Curiously, it appears that no one can support Sidious and earn your respect.)
Thus I must conclude that your claims are false and you really do have an agenda like the rest of us. And if your agenda really were nothing else than a general jihad against the Hordes of Bias, I should think that there exists other targets equally deserving of your holy wrath—targets with whom you almost always never bother.
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
Oh. I've seen, what Janus has "admitted". Yet, I've never seen one of the Antedeluvians running around with a blind faith on a single quote. That's why it never was "Sidious vs Ragnos", but an offering of a rather long list of challengers "vs Sidious", right?Neither can I remember to have posted an argument that consisted of nothing but one quote regarding a character, or having had an expectation, that such a quote would be the end of all kind of debate regarding a character.
You’re not looking hard enough: IKC and Illustrious were two in particular who used quotes about Ragnos as a perpetually-menstruating woman might her tampons.
This simile is especially appropriate given the level of irrationality and instability shared by both subjects.
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
And, that aside: There is a difference between using quotes and believing in quotes, Gideon. I, for myself, believe in nothing. Or, let me rephrase that: There is no value for me, in knowing who is "the most powerful fictional character in a fictional universe" is. There a few things that I could care less about. Then why am I posting here? Aside from the reasons I've stated (English skills, practicing some deconstruction) and enjoying the SW franchise in general I like educating. As Sir Terry Pratchett did once note: "Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on."
So IKC and Illustrious didn’t believe in the quotes they used to support Ragnos and the ancient Sith, thus exempting them from your righteous fury? Really? How on earth could you possibly discern that?
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
Of course. Because I was the one, who did stick to one particular opinion to fanatically defend it like a rabid fanboy, right?
That description could apply to plenty of posters here and many of them have nothing to do with Sidious. Yet it’s only the Sidious contingent that earns your attention. Which is the point that you continue to duck.
Originally posted by Farmer Joe
Oh, wait. You just admitted that this wasn't the case. So I was the least selective about who walked the plank, as long as someone did walk it. That you volunteered for the task every other day is, most certainly, not my fault. Aye?
When you start “sharing the love” a bit more, I’ll believe you are the dirty little whore you claim to be. ‘Til then, I’m quite convinced this is an entirely monogamous relationship of hate-sex between you and His Imperial Majesty.
Though I can't honestly blame you; he is rather dreamy.
Originally posted by Nai
D'uh. No, bro.
"Sidious" was ruling unopposed, before Illustrious, IKC and myself came along. And the "Antedeluvians" were named moving against Revan fanboys and not Sidious supporters. Who still always were the vast majority of people in this forum, believe it or not.
This is actually true, Escape. Revan fanboys were the norm back in 2005 and somewhat in 2006, usually aligned against Vader fanboys although there were smaller groups of Maul fanboys and even Luke fanboys. The group organized against the influx of newbies, usually Revan fanboys (but included at some point any of the above groups I mentioned) who mindlessly advocated their favorite character without so much as a valid argument to defend them.
Half of the time Vader threads were settled with "LOL CHOSEN ONE WINS" or "HES FROM THE MOVIE STFU HE WINS" instead of anything approaching reason. It was stupidity like this that compelled me to register and post after a Google search inadvertently lead me here. Amusement I guess kept me coming back.
Before the group came on the scene, things like “logical fallacies” went unrecognized, and people sometimes used evidence incorrectly, without context, or flat out lied. Some of the less debate-oriented stuff we made up included a Cult of Artoo Detoo, which to this day I have never been accused of bias regarding.
Sidious versus Ancient Sith didn't become an issue until Lightsnake and you joined forces and challenged our ranking of the character. Everything after that became a bloody mess and eventually, the group split up for various reasons. Immediately after that, you have a whole group of people who were aggravated by the group willing to accept your position of forum leader and buy into your own status quo, simply because they chafed under ours. It’s a bit of irony really.
Also Nai is right that he often came to blows with Illustrious and myself and others (*Cough*Sorgo*Cough*). Sometimes he disagreed for the sake of having a dissenting opinion, regardless of group affiliation. I don't see why you'd assert otherwise, except to discredit him indirectly without attacking his argument.
Nai:
Oh. I've seen, what Janus has "admitted". Yet, I've never seen one of the Antedeluvians running around with a blind faith on a single quote. That's why it never was "Sidious vs Ragnos", but an offering of a rather long list of challengers "vs Sidious", right?
I felt the need to address this on my behalf, to Escape as well.
I stated this:
[list]When you first got here, you utterly detested the blind way in which Antediluvians accepted hierarchies without giving an inch, and rightfully so. Don't make the same mistake of replacing one status quo with another.[/list]
^ This comment was specifically to call to attention that you are doing the same thing that you claimed the Antediluvians did, except you're not recognizing in what ways you’ve become very similar.
In some cases, the Antediluvians debated, crushed, or out-shouted opposition into the ground, especially towards the end. We became less and less willing to hear the opposition once we had established what we thought was a logical pecking order for EU. Even if before that we fought and bickered to establish said pecking order (and it came after months of infighting), right before the group disbanded, we became more intolerant. I'm not sure if the intolerance was a natural part of complacency or if it was related to the appearance of yourself and LS or both, but either way the group lost sight of its purpose and became less fun and more “the Old Guard”.
However, the above comment does not say that "Antediluvians use single quotes to ascertain victory", nor is it saying that the substance of Antediluvian debates were mere rhetoric, blind faith, or bias confirmation. That ignores the very reason the group came about. The group was developed by the more vocal and (usually) more educated members at the time to counteract blatant fanboyism and pitiful attempts at reason, something the regulars complained about constantly. It was a knee-jerk reaction to droves of newbies entering threads and going "Revan wins, lol morons" and countering it with source materials, canon arguments, and image scans. Prior to this, such things were unheard of and the forum was void of common reason. The movement was an attempt to civilize the subforum and make it better than say, Comic Book versus or VG versus. Any inflexibility came after the fact, not before.
And the group was ultimately seen by others not for what it originally intended, but the more vocal and colorful members' actions. Who can forget the root-and-branch shreddings that IKC, Illustrious and myself gave out like candy, or Sorgo, our resident troll-slash-jester, whom even we often could not agree was sane or reasonable.
Knowledge of EU was less back then as well, and a lot of content has been made in the years since, so much has changed. You can say "OMFG THEY BELIEVED IN X" but this is a historian's fallacy; it fails to account for what has changed and what has become available since then. Honestly, it would be foolish to assume -absolutely- that newer Force titans such as Vitiate, or the Infernal One, or Abeloth couldn't defeat yesterday's titans of Kun, or Ragnos, or Kyp Durron (yes, he was at one point thought to be amazing based on his feats at the time). Luke was eventually agreed upon to be the ultimate Jedi and perhaps one of the most powerful Force users in the mythos, given his feats which were at the time related to us only by a few members who had read the books. But back then, other entities didn't exist, so the hierarchy seemed very clear. Back then, most members hadn’t even read some of the works. It fell to Glentract and Faunus to educate us on post-RotJ, as most had not read it at all.
I can’t stress this enough : the Antediluvians weren't characterized by a static period devoid of change; it was a movement towards a more objective standard of debating than what existed at the time. As one of the only individuals who predates this sub-forum, I can attest to that. Any pigeonholing to the contrary is just that.
Now, I admit, with some measure of personal responsibility, to gang mentality that developed in the group towards the end. The bashing, the insults, the PWNED pics... That happened. I know for a fact it made enemies of regulars who came about at that time and remained to this day. I'm not disavowing any of it. The group became a gang right before it went bust. If anything, I'm saying learn from it.
The point to all this is that the group has its share of good and bad. To simplify it as a retarded movement of ancient Sith fanboys is completely missing the point, but that is unfortunately the prevailing viewpoint as expressed by yourself, Blax, and sometimes others. For those who were not here around that time, all they have to go on is your word.
And let's be honest here; I was neither the most intelligent nor the most cruel of the group, but I was certainly the figurehead and as a result I get to carry the majority of the forum's distaste for the movement. I'm certain it still colors how some of you here still perceive me, regardless. I’d be lying if I said this doesn’t annoy me to though; it’s been six years. World War II lasted nearly as long. Some of the resentment seems to be simmering, just to be brought to a boil by yet another inflammatory comment by yourself. You've stoked that fire for years. It's unhealthy.
Now, the tables are turned and you are the figurehead of a status quo that maybe others don't care for but can't muster the voice to out-shout you in return. Maybe they just don't want to make waves or don't have the endurance to attempt to challenge you. Whatever their reasons, you sit on your throne unchallenged. If you come under attack, you can rely on some people to agree with you, or even attempt to defend you. Our positions have reversed.
The difference is that you've selectively decided to only accept things which support your status quo from the start, and have maintained it consistently for years. Indeed, this status quo is unlike ours in that it's less a hierarchy and more of a cult of personality, centered around a fictional character - Sidious. The Antediluvians, comparatively, worshipped Artoo and the Holy Trinity.
tl;dr version is, don't flanderize the Antediluvians. For all our sins, we brought reason to this sub-forum in its infancy, and our "reign of terror" was brief compared to your own.
Dear antediluvian,
You were given more than 30 of your mortal minutes to respond. Your failure to do so must be interpreted as unconditional consent for execution. As the highest ranking appointed servant of His Imperial Majesty, it is my sacred duty to deliver your punishment in a most ruthless and expedient fashion.
Prepare yourself.
Spoiler:
Also, I have 20 minutes of free time.
Spoiler:
highlight the following to receive a hidden Rebel transmission
Don’t mistake the intent of my squabble with Nai. This is less a polemic of antediluvian policies than it is a rejection and refutation of Nai’s justification for his behavior.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that every major ‘regime’ here has had its flaws—Gideon’s included. So while I sincerely appreciate the thoughtful reflection of your heretical ways, it really was unnecessary: I’m not attacking them so much as I’m trying to illuminate a point that you yourself identify: we are very much alike in our approaches.
Naturally, we have and will continue to disagree on which position is stronger (mine, obviously). But the bottom line is that the Palpatinists and the antediluvians both made liberal and fervent use of quotes, were both guilty of certain fallacies and confirmation bias, and vigorously defended their mutually opposed agendas.
Therefore, I reject the idea that the Palpatinists were behaving any more egregiously than the antediluvians. And while Nai certainly has bucked the party line on occasion, that was never in question. He supported your faction far more than opposed.
Something else—something much more sinister—is motivating his crusade against the noble Palpatinists.
Thus, we’re back to heresy. His Imperial Majesty will not permit the German to operate without due redress.
May your soul blaze beneath His pointed stare, heretic.
Whatever their reasons, you sit on your throne unchallenged. If you come under attack, you can rely on some people to agree with you, or even attempt to defend you. Our positions have reversed.
Stealth, that post was beautiful. I'd love an illustrated history of the SWVF.
Spoiler:
Pics of Capt. Valerian are an excellent place to start.
Tempest, I'd be curious as to your perspective, as a newer member: how do you feel the current level of debate-activity (centered on the True Sith Emperor) has influenced your ranking of Sidious as compared to characters like Tenebrae and other TOR creations?
Originally posted by Zampanó
[B]Stealth, that post was beautiful. I'd love an illustrated history of the SWVF.Spoiler:
Pics of Capt. Valerian are an excellent place to start.
We had pics of those? And thank you for your feedback. It doesn't read as easily as I intended, but I was working on it and editing it while helping people at work, so sometimes I'd come back to the desk and reread something, change it, omit something else, etc. And it was nearly time to leave, so I posted it as is finally and left it at that.
Tempest, that being said, my own viewpoints on Nai is that he's always followed his own compass, rarely being swayed by majority opinions, and apt to endure the unendurable. Even as an Antediluvian, he never let that get in the way of what he thought was right.
Spoiler:
And I was watching The Blacklist so I had to leave you hanging, sorry.
I've never had personal problems with the Antediluvian's viewpoints on Star Wars. I don't agree with their stances on most of the characters' power levels and I didn't agree with how they interpreted the canon, but, I disagree with lots of peoples' arguments about things. That's just the way of the 'net. It's nothing worth caring about.
The biggest problem I have with the Antediluvian is that they were a bunch of hostile, arrogant jackasses. Bullies, essentially, and their excuse of "b-b-but people are wrong on the internet!" as a justification for their shitty attitudes is still one of the most pathetic things I've seen on this forum.
It still makes me a little angry to think about all the members we could have had in our community but were run off instead by retards like Sorgo. There has certainly been a Pro-Sideous bias pervading throughout the forum since the group's departure, sure, and Gideon's smarminess can be annoying, sure, but overall there has never been a level of hostility within this subforum that can compare to how it was when I first joined, when there was basically a death squad of assholes who wandered from thread to thread taking turns cursing out anyone who had a differing opinion from them.
Not the business, fellas. We still get at each others' throats sometimes even now, but it's more like a group of old guys talking shit in a barber shop. If any of us knew each other in real life, we'd probably be going out and getting beers after having these discussions.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I've never had personal problems with the Antediluvian's viewpoints on Star Wars.
I didn't want to have to call you out, Blax, since you used to be a regular member of my various forums, participant in RPs, and was a part of my circle of friends there. However, I will say that this above is simply untrue:
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
So how many times now has Janus wandered into KMC, fellatio'd the ancient sith for awhile and then wandered off after getting beaten up? hmm
I'm still not sure what I did to you personally between then and now, but at some point you came to lump me in with people you utterly hated. Maybe you could enlighten me on why this is the case?
The biggest problem I have with the Antediluvian is that they were a bunch of hostile, arrogant jackasses. Bullies, essentially, and their excuse of "b-b-but people are wrong on the internet!" as a justification for their shitty attitudes is still one of the most pathetic things I've seen on this forum.
This I find amusing considering:
1. You came here first as a self-professed troll. This statement might seem more reasonable if you hadn't also treated KMC as a place for your personal amusement. If asking people with weak assertions to "prove up" is a crime, this might as well be a prison.
2. I'm still hard-pressed to think of a single instance where anyone ripped you apart but Sorgo. Did I forget something?
It still makes me a little angry to think about all the members we could have had in our community but were run off instead by retards like Sorgo.
I realize the guy was a total asshat and menace, but you make it look like he emptied the place out with his antics or those of anyone else for that matter. A lot of regulars stopped coming around not because they were bashed but because they lost interest or life moved on. That's part of the reason we stopped coming in some cases.
Hell, in the thread that's been necro'd recently, here's some examples right here; check the last post dates:
[list]- Bobafetty
- Fishy
- Gryn Jabar
- Emperor Revan
- Darth Dipsit
[/list]
Do you remember those names? I remember all of them and more. None of them got "chased off" by Sorgo or by Antediluvians.
There has certainly been a Pro-Sideous bias pervading throughout the forum since the group's departure, sure, and Gideon's smarminess can be annoying, sure, but overall there has never been a level of hostility within this subforum that can compare to how it was when I first joined, when there was basically a death squad of assholes who wandered from thread to thread taking turns cursing out anyone who had a differing opinion from them.
No really, tell me how you feel about things.
I really am dying to know just what happened that made you hate Antediluvians so much that you joined their primary forum for years and participated. No really, I want you to explain that to me because if I hated a group of faceless goose-stepping thread-burning monsters, I wouldn't socialize with them on a forum primarily made up of their members and administrated by their visible leaders. And participate in RPs created by the same.
Since when did Blax go from "dude who hangs out in SWVF and EoD/RoK" to "wronged crusader against the Antediluvian menace"?
Not the business, fellas. We still get at each others' throats sometimes even now, but it's more like a group of old guys talking shit in a barber shop. If any of us knew each other in real life, we'd probably be going out and getting beers after having these discussions.
^ This is about the only thing here I utterly agree with. What baffles me is how you persist in pretending like SWVF was this gulag were all new people were frightened off and new threads sterilized, especially since this is a relatively new viewpoint on your part.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There has certainly been a Pro-Sideous bias pervading throughout the forum since the group's departure, sure, and Gideon's smarminess can be annoying, sure, but overall there has never been a level of hostility within this subforum that can compare to how it was when I first joined, when there was basically a death squad of assholes who wandered from thread to thread taking turns cursing out anyone who had a differing opinion from them.
Man, thats not how I remember it. When I first joined and everyone thought I was a Nebaris sock I met incredible hostility, mostly from Sexy. I can't quite remember what he said, but I do recall him bringing up my mother in a rather nasty way.
In general there was still a lot of aggression towards people who disagreed with the status quo. It was why I stuck up for Neb so much, people were just laying into the guy.
Back when I joined in 2008, KMC largely consisted of ProSidiousers. I never got to see the age where Janus and the Antedeluvians waged war against Gideon, Lightsnake, etc. But as Neph has pointed out, I did notice that Nebaris was always beaten off by everyone and his opinions were generally disregarded. It seems that at that point in which the Antedeluvians started to get opposition, members who posted here regularly started drifting away.
Sorry fo the double post, btw.