And do you think that poor people are poor because it's totally out of control?
Haha, there's no way that people genuinely believe this.
I can speak about my family, or friends and their families, etc. Yes, those people specifically are at least middle class(some upper, one is a vice president of Microsoft) because they worked harder. You making the statement you just made shows your ignorance of how much harder immigrants have to work to get to a certain point.
Originally posted by psmith81992
And do you think that poor people are poor because it's totally out of control?Haha, there's no way that people genuinely believe this.
I can speak about my family, or friends and their families, etc. Yes, those people specifically are at least middle class(some upper, one is a vice president of Microsoft) because they worked harder. You making the statement you just made shows your ignorance of how much harder immigrants have to work to get to a certain point.
I think that because that's the way it is. People make money due to the demand or value of their position of employment, not because they "work hard." A construction worker who busts his ass for ten hours a day for fifteen bucks an hour is going to be told he doesn't work as hard as some dudes who have office jobs and spend half the day on facebook or idling at their job, pulling in almost thirty an hour and working the same long hours?
Don't take this the wrong way, though. I'm not saying that these jobs don't have their own difficulties, milestones, and challenges but what you're saying is devoid of reason. It implies that the more money you make, the harder you work and the less money you make, the less you work.
It's a fact that people with higher incomes tend to work longer hours but we all all know correlation doesn't imply causation. This still doesn't mean that these people aren't rich because of the market value of what job they have. LeBron James made almost SIXTY million dollars last year playing basketball.
Do you believe he could have done this a hundred years ago? He does work hard but he is rich because of demand. It's because of the massive profit that sports entertainment provides and the revenue it generates due to it's popularity. Basketball is the SECOND most popular sport on Earth. THIS is why LeBron is rich, not because he f*cking works harder than that nurse who just put in a dozen hours of overtime or that system administrator that calls his office home and only brings home a middle class salary.
When I was younger, after 2005, I worked for a drug rehabilitation center in the heart of Vancouver. We fed people, helped keep drug addicts who were taking a shot at getting off from having seizures and/or attempting to drink cleaning products from dying. I, and three other physically fit young men, chipped in to do repairs to the structure of the drug center. I worked all week with these boys to paint, repair drywall, fix doors, etc.
It was hard labor. While all of this was happening, I still had to do the other duties involved with my volunteer work, which was tending to the addicts. Yes, you heard me. See that word there? "Volunteer?" I was making ZERO dollars busting my f*cking ass. This was me and roughly over a dozen others. Why? There's not a lot of money, almost none, in helping these people.
Feeding the homeless and performing these duties is low paying because of how he value those types of people in our society and this is all intricately woven together to help create and prolong a dynamic problem in our society and that problem is poor people. Do you think people WANT to be poor or don't work hard? Do you think it's not a systematic problem that other countries, such as Scandinavian ones, don't share because they have a population that simply "works harder?" How absurd can this belief REALLY get?
Do you think dudes like Mark Cuban and other entrepreneurs got to where they are because they're these uber hard working juggernauts? It's a mixture of market value and sheer luck. Mark Cuban happened to create a broadcasting website during the dot com explosion and happened to garner enough hits to eject him forward monetarily.
He even acknowledges it was his ultimate gambling win. Of course he put time and work in. A lot of it indeed but there's people that do who make substantially less money and it's not because they aren't working as hard, as I've illustrated.
Cuban's had failed endeavors (HDTV) and has had periods where he hasn't worked hard. Welcome to every human being on the planet.
Also, how do I not acknowledge how hard immigrants have to work? This conveniently ties into my point, if we're being fair. A lot of immigrants come here with degrees and end up working sh*t jobs.
I've spoken to taxi cab drivers and worked with security guards who were engineers where they were from and have handfuls of diplomas/degrees. It's because of the value of their education, and other factors, that determine why they don't make money or cannot pursue the career they did back home.
Both my grandparents were immigrants. I can relate to this personally. They have to work hard, of course, but there are people here that do too, for a number of different reasons. Everyone has a story and difficulties in their life. This is our way and it wager it always will be.
"I personally think that society is responsible for a very significant percentage of what I've earned. If you stick me down in the middle of Bangladesh or Peru or someplace, you find out how much this talent is going to produce in the wrong kind of soil... I work in a market system that happens to reward what I do very well - disproportionately well.
Mike Tyson, too. If you can knock a guy out in 10 seconds and earn $10 million for it, this world will pay a lot for that. If you can bat .360, this world will pay a lot for that. If you're a marvelous teacher, this world won't pay a lot for it. If you are a terrific nurse, this world will not pay a lot for it.
- Warren Buffett, disgustingly rich dude who is totally aware of why he's basically worth a small country.
I think that because that's the way it is. People make money due to the demand or value of their position of employment, not because they "work hard." A construction worker who busts his ass for ten hours a day for fifteen bucks an hour is going to be told he doesn't work as hard as some dudes who have office jobs and spend half the day on facebook or idling at their job, pulling in almost thirty an hour and working the same long hours?
People work HARD to get a job that's in high demand. I don't necessarily mean work hard at their jobs as much as getting to the position of said job. Whether they work hard at that point is irrelevant.
Don't take this the wrong way, though. I'm not saying that these jobs don't have their own difficulties, milestones, and challenges but what you're saying is devoid of reason. It implies that the more money you make, the harder you work and the less money you make, the less you work.
It's a fact that people with higher incomes tend to work longer hours but we all all know correlation doesn't imply causation. This still doesn't mean that these people aren't rich because of the market value of what job they have. LeBron James made almost SIXTY million dollars last year playing basketball.
Do you believe he could have done this a hundred years ago? He does work hard but he is rich because of demand. It's because of the massive profit that sports entertainment provides and the revenue it generates due to it's popularity. Basketball is the SECOND most popular sport on Earth. THIS is why LeBron is rich, not because he f*cking works harder than that nurse who just put in a dozen hours of overtime or that system administrator that calls his office home and only brings home a middle class salary.
When I was younger, after 2005, I worked for a drug rehabilitation center in the heart of Vancouver. We fed people, helped keep drug addicts who were taking a shot at getting off from having seizures and/or attempting to drink cleaning products from dying. I, and three other physically fit young men, chipped in to do repairs to the structure of the drug center. I worked all week with these boys to paint, repair drywall, fix doors, etc.It was hard labor. While all of this was happening, I still had to do the other duties involved with my volunteer work, which was tending to the addicts. Yes, you heard me. See that word there? "Volunteer?" I was making ZERO dollars busting my f*cking ass. This was me and roughly over a dozen others. Why? There's not a lot of money, almost none, in helping these people.
Ok.. So you worked hard for a noble cause. That's hardly the norm.
Do you think people WANT to be poor or don't work hard? Do you think it's not a systematic problem that other countries, such as Scandinavian ones, don't share because they have a population that simply "works harder?" How absurd can this belief REALLY get?
Do you think dudes like Mark Cuban and other entrepreneurs got to where they are because they're these uber hard working juggernauts? It's a mixture of market value and sheer luck. Mark Cuban happened to create a broadcasting website during the dot com explosion and happened to garner enough hits to eject him forward monetarily.
personally think that society is responsible for a very significant percentage of what I've earned. If you stick me down in the middle of Bangladesh or Peru or someplace, you find out how much this talent is going to produce in the wrong kind of soil... I work in a market system that happens to reward what I do very well - disproportionately well.Mike Tyson, too. If you can knock a guy out in 10 seconds and earn $10 million for it, this world will pay a lot for that. If you can bat .360, this world will pay a lot for that. If you're a marvelous teacher, this world won't pay a lot for it. If you are a terrific nurse, this world will not pay a lot for it.
Originally posted by psmith81992
And the rich totally didn't deserve it🙂Btw, if welfare food stamps pay the bills, it makes no sense to go out and look for a job.
This is really stupid. Food stamps and welfare are a pittance, and envying the poor is Fox News bullshit.
Originally posted by The Renegade
I think that because that's the way it is. People make money due to the demand or value of their position of employment, not because they "work hard." A construction worker who busts his ass for ten hours a day for fifteen bucks an hour is going to be told he doesn't work as hard as some dudes who have office jobs and spend half the day on facebook or idling at their job, pulling in almost thirty an hour and working the same long hours?Don't take this the wrong way, though. I'm not saying that these jobs don't have their own difficulties, milestones, and challenges but what you're saying is devoid of reason. It implies that the more money you make, the harder you work and the less money you make, the less you work.
It's a fact that people with higher incomes tend to work longer hours but we all all know correlation doesn't imply causation. This still doesn't mean that these people aren't rich because of the market value of what job they have. LeBron James made almost SIXTY million dollars last year playing basketball.
Do you believe he could have done this a hundred years ago? He does work hard but he is rich because of demand. It's because of the massive profit that sports entertainment provides and the revenue it generates due to it's popularity. Basketball is the SECOND most popular sport on Earth. THIS is why LeBron is rich, not because he f*cking works harder than that nurse who just put in a dozen hours of overtime or that system administrator that calls his office home and only brings home a middle class salary.
When I was younger, after 2005, I worked for a drug rehabilitation center in the heart of Vancouver. We fed people, helped keep drug addicts who were taking a shot at getting off from having seizures and/or attempting to drink cleaning products from dying. I, and three other physically fit young men, chipped in to do repairs to the structure of the drug center. I worked all week with these boys to paint, repair drywall, fix doors, etc.
It was hard labor. While all of this was happening, I still had to do the other duties involved with my volunteer work, which was tending to the addicts. Yes, you heard me. See that word there? "Volunteer?" I was making ZERO dollars busting my f*cking ass. This was me and roughly over a dozen others. Why? There's not a lot of money, almost none, in helping these people.
Feeding the homeless and performing these duties is low paying because of how he value those types of people in our society and this is all intricately woven together to help create and prolong a dynamic problem in our society and that problem is poor people. Do you think people WANT to be poor or don't work hard? Do you think it's not a systematic problem that other countries, such as Scandinavian ones, don't share because they have a population that simply "works harder?" How absurd can this belief REALLY get?
Do you think dudes like Mark Cuban and other entrepreneurs got to where they are because they're these uber hard working juggernauts? It's a mixture of market value and sheer luck. Mark Cuban happened to create a broadcasting website during the dot com explosion and happened to garner enough hits to eject him forward monetarily.
He even acknowledges it was his ultimate gambling win. Of course he put time and work in. A lot of it indeed but there's people that do who make substantially less money and it's not because they aren't working as hard, as I've illustrated.
Cuban's had failed endeavors (HDTV) and has had periods where he hasn't worked hard. Welcome to every human being on the planet.
Also, how do I not acknowledge how hard immigrants have to work? This conveniently ties into my point, if we're being fair. A lot of immigrants come here with degrees and end up working sh*t jobs.
I've spoken to taxi cab drivers and worked with security guards who were engineers where they were from and have handfuls of diplomas/degrees. It's because of the value of their education, and other factors, that determine why they don't make money or cannot pursue the career they did back home.
Both my grandparents were immigrants. I can relate to this personally. They have to work hard, of course, but there are people here that do too, for a number of different reasons. Everyone has a story and difficulties in their life. This is our way and it wager it always will be.
"I personally think that society is responsible for a very significant percentage of what I've earned. If you stick me down in the middle of Bangladesh or Peru or someplace, you find out how much this talent is going to produce in the wrong kind of soil... I work in a market system that happens to reward what I do very well - disproportionately well.
Mike Tyson, too. If you can knock a guy out in 10 seconds and earn $10 million for it, this world will pay a lot for that. If you can bat .360, this world will pay a lot for that. If you're a marvelous teacher, this world won't pay a lot for it. If you are a terrific nurse, this world will not pay a lot for it.
- Warren Buffett, disgustingly rich dude who is totally aware of why he's basically worth a small country.
This is an 11 on the 10 awesome scale.
This is really stupid. Food stamps and welfare are a pittance, and envying the poor is Fox News bullshit.
Oh I see. Do you have any thoughts or arguments of your own, or do you plan on parroting MSNBC or your liberal arts department?
It's ok though I think we know the answer to that. You've had a history of having particular disdain for the wealthy/successful while claiming it's not poor people's fault for being poor. I'm sorry you don't like your lot in life. But that should have no effect on this debate.
People work HARD to get a job that's in high demand. I don't necessarily mean work hard at their jobs as much as getting to the position of said job. Whether they work hard at that point is irrelevant.
That statement isn’t true. There are people that have but you’re saying this generally and that’s incorrect. Not everyone works “hard” to get a job that’s in high demand. There are plenty of people that know others and get in on that merit or they happen to have a set of skills that pertain to a job that pays a lot of money. Does this mean they worked harder? No, not at all. Did that pharmacist who spent years in school learning about medicine/medication work less than someone who spent years in school and now has a job because availability in that field is higher?
It has little to do with how hard you’ve worked and that’s the problem. You’re associating landing decent jobs and making loads of money with working harder and my fundamental criticism of that belief is that these people really are not working harder but happen to have jobs that are in demand.
That's not what I'm implying at all. Oddly enough, you didn't criticize the belief that rich people didn't deserve their wealth and instead are focusing on this, but I digress.
Why, because I didn’t directly state that rich people don’t deserve their wealth? They don’t. No one individual should have so much money. It’s insanity. It’s greedy. In terms of deserving it, there’s people who work just as hard (if not harder) and have less so why the hell would some deserve absurd levels of wealth for doing a similar workload and just happening to get more because their job is highly in demand?
That’s unfair. It means wealth is based on what job is popular, rather than difficulty and fairness, which is an ineffective and distorted method of distributing wealth.
Yes, and "the Situation" also made a few million dollars being a retarded douchebag. But they're both in a position of demand. I don't think for a minute that the Situation works on anything other than GTL(gym, tan, laundry). I KNOW Lebron works his ass off though.
Why? I’ve answered that.
But do you understand why it's so in demand? Because only a handful of people on this earth can do what Lebron does.
No, it’s not in demand because only LeBron can do what he does. There’s other substantially less popular sports and events where people make a LOT less doing things “other people cannot.” As I’ve said, basketball is the second most popular sport on Earth. It’s viewed by many, which means it generates huge income. THIS is why LeBron gets what he does, in terms of financial gain.
Ok.. So you worked hard for a noble cause. That's hardly the norm.
That wasn’t my point. Moving on.
If you're going to make an absurd statement like "rich people don't work hard or deserve their money", I'll counter with "poor people don't work hard enough".
No, NOBODY wants to be poor. But most people don't want to work hard either.
I said earlier that I didn’t believe that they work hard so you’re attacking a point I didn’t make. Strawman fallacy extraordinaire. You LITERALLY put a statement in quotations I never made.
Who are you to say most people don’t want to work hard or do not? Most people do. You assume they don’t because you appear to believe that being super rich is synonymous with working super hard, which is super f*cking wrong.
You said it yourself that Jews make money because they work hard (a problematic statement for a variety of reasons). You associate lots of money with lots of hard work and that’s a false cause fallacy. The hard work is parallel to how rich these people are, not the cause of how rich they are.
Lol, so market value and sheer luck, but no hard work. Yet the poor get the benefit of the doubt. Nice double standards. Mark Cuban is an uber smart guy so I think that had something to do with it.
The only thing society is largely responsible for, is demand or lack thereof, a certain skill. In this entire debate, I've heard personal responsibility mentioned a total of ZERO times. It's society this, society that. When are people responsible?
They are but what you’re not understanding is people are also responsible for society. We, as a people, are responsible for the current state of affairs, particularly regarding the allocation of wealth. Personal responsibility is a variable but not a major cause whatsoever. As I said in my previous post, Mark Cuban has made some HORRENDOUS business deals but has the capital to survive the falldown. Most middle class and low class individuals do not, by any means.
The rich have much more room for failure, which is why they don’t fall as hard when it occurs. Why do you think we haven’t discussed that? Do you honestly believe the rich are rich because they’re just walking success machines, incapable of lackluster endeavors and investments? This is just unattached from reality.
We don’t hold them as accountable because they have money and have a lot more than they reasonably should. Hell, the government doesn’t either. Look at the reaction of America’s government to the 2008 economic crisis. The major players failed miserably and were reimbursed for that failure via bailouts. How can we defend this model logically?
P.S. Don’t ask me why I’m responding. I most likely won’t again because you’ve failed to address more than half of my points in your last post. Beside that, I hope you appreciate the free education. I engage only a handful of people who express this potent strain of naivete. Feel blessed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres generally no point to seriously discussing things with psmith. He'll just be belligerent and aggressive towards you while not really addressing the points.
I've noticed that but, despite what you've said, I'm not personally familiar with him and don't feel comfortable merely judging him based on what others have said or what he does in a few posts. It's only fair, for me, to give him the benefit of the doubt until he further fails to address my points or shows he's incapable of arguing logically.
Then I'll walk.
Originally posted by Nephthys
👆
Even still, I haven't discussed much with him, or anyone else, for years. I changed massively since I was consistently posting here in '05. That was nine years ago. I'd expect people to extend the possibly towards me that I've changed so it's only fair that I reciprocate.