The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by psmith819923,287 pages
That statement isn’t true. There are people that have but you’re saying this generally and that’s incorrect. Not everyone works “hard” to get a job that’s in high demand. There are plenty of people that know others and get in on that merit or they happen to have a set of skills that pertain to a job that pays a lot of money. Does this mean they worked harder? No, not at all. Did that pharmacist who spent years in school learning about medicine/medication work less than someone who spent years in school and now has a job because availability in that field is higher?

Again, you're missing the point which at this point is no surprise. Going to school for 8 years for higher education to become a pharmacist IS working hard. We are not debating what happens when they get to the certain position.

It has little to do with how hard you’ve worked and that’s the problem. You’re associating landing decent jobs and making loads of money with working harder and my fundamental criticism of that belief is that these people really are not working harder but happen to have jobs that are in demand.

And you've associated financial success with "luck and timing".

Why, because I didn’t directly state that rich people don’t deserve their wealth? They don’t. No one individual should have so much money. It’s insanity

This is ignorance at its finest. So rich people don't deserve their wealth, but poor people are poor because it's outside their control. How naive can you be?

LeBron is not the only one. There are people that work harder, if not as hard, that make SO much less. No one is saying that LeBron, or anyone else, sat on their ass and didn’t put all they could into it to be where they are but LeBron’s work ethic isn’t why he makes hundreds of millions of dollars. There are people that SHARE that ethic and do not make as much.

Why? I’ve answered that.


You're literally repeating everything I just said. Lebron works hard. There are people that work harder. His job is higher demand. He gets paid more. Fair? Probably not.

No, it’s not in demand because only LeBron can do what he does. There’s other substantially less popular sports and events where people make a LOT less doing things “other people cannot.” As I’ve said, basketball is the second most popular sport on Earth. It’s viewed by many, which means it generates huge income. THIS is why LeBron gets what he does, in terms of financial gain.

Yes, and if Lebron was Sasha Vujecic, he wouldn't be generating the income he does. Lebron did not wake up one day and start making millions. While his freakish abilities helped, he had to work hard to develop his skill. You really seem to be focusing mostly on "luck" and societal forces and not enough on the work he put in. Again, do I agree it's fair that Lebron makes more than a doctor saving lives? Not necessarily but at the same time, the market has spoken. Do I think the Situation deserves anything than a big kick in the ass. No.. But it's the stupid Americans who keep him wealthy.

Who are you to say most people don’t want to work hard or do not?

And who are you to say most people do want to work hard? Who are you to say poor people are poor because of circumstances beyond their control. If you're going to invoke the blatantly illogical and emotional "who are you to" clause, then we can agree to disagree and move on.

You said it yourself that Jews make money because they work hard (a problematic statement for a variety of reasons). You associate lots of money with lots of hard work and that’s a false cause fallacy. The hard work is parallel to how rich these people are, not the cause of how rich they are.

No, I said the Jews that I know came to this country with nothing, started at the bottom, spend a decade or two and moved to the middle or somewhere near the top. For someone claiming "strawman", you seem to be suffering from a reading deficiency.

I didn’t say no hard work. I was just explaining the two largest factors, which are factually why he’s wealthy. There’s no double standard here. I believe the middle and poor class are where they are due to market value as well. Stop strawmanning. It’s clogging the discussion./quote]
I'm not strawmanning, I'm calling out your premise that the MAIN or ONLY (I'm still not sure which one you're saying) difference between the rich and the poor is market demand.

[quote]As I said in my previous post, Mark Cuban has made some HORRENDOUS business deals but has the capital to survive the falldown


But Mark Cuban was successful enough to obtain the funds necessary to make more liberal business deals.

The rich have much more room for failure, which is why they don’t fall as hard when it occurs. Why do you think we haven’t discussed that? Do you honestly believe the rich are rich because they’re just walking success machines, incapable of lackluster endeavors and investments? This is just unattached from reality.

Just as unrealistic claiming what you just claimed, and then claiming the poor are poor because it's out of control.

We don’t hold them as accountable because they have money and have a lot more than they reasonably should. Hell, the government doesn’t either. Look at the reaction of America’s government to the 2008 economic crisis. The major players failed miserably and were reimbursed for that failure via bailouts. How can we defend this model logically?

The rich don't often hold the rich accountable, I do. I didn't say it's a logical model, but unless you have a better model other than "let's adopt one that works for 5 million people!", you're just blowing smoke.

P.S. Don’t ask me why I’m responding. I most likely won’t again because you’ve failed to address more than half of my points in your last post. Beside that, I hope you appreciate the free education. I engage only a handful of people who express this potent strain of naivete. Feel blessed.

You haven't addressed any of my points. You haven't educated me. You've essentially said that rich people are responsible for A, B, and C, while poor people are essentially not responsible for anything because they're poor. That kind of logic resembles grade school naivete (which is ironic since you called me naive).

Theres generally no point to seriously discussing things with psmith. He'll just be belligerent and aggressive towards you while not really addressing the points.

This is amusing since I directly addressed your points, to which you responded with sarcasm. There's a reason people only keep debates with you focused on star wars, and not social issues.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Oh I see. Do you have any thoughts or arguments of your own, or do you plan on parroting MSNBC or your liberal arts department?

It's ok though I think we know the answer to that. You've had a history of having particular disdain for the wealthy/successful while claiming it's not poor people's fault for being poor. I'm sorry you don't like your lot in life. But that should have no effect on this debate.

1. I'm not a fan of MSNBC. I get my news chiefly from BBC.

2. I'm actually a health science major, so you fail.

3. Attempting to take the argument to me instead of valid points is more misdirection.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Both economics and morals seem to be against you DS. I think there's a solid argument to be made that the explosion of income inequality since 1980 is an unfair situation. Gotta side with Janus on this one.

👆

I take back everything I said about you, including that one thing.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Rich=bad
Poor=good

Isn't an argument. Nor did I say economic inequality did not exist. At the same time, if you think a system that works for 5 million white vikings will work for the melting pot of 300 million+, I'd like to see a legitimate argument for it.

Another strawman. Not all rich are bad. Not all poor are good. The abuse of the system, which overwhelmingly benefits the rich at the expense of the poor is bad.

You just don't want to admit it because you benefit from the system.

Also, lol. They're not uniformly white Vikings. Immigrants, especially Muslims, can be anywhere from 15 to 20% of the population, especially in the larger cities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres generally no point to seriously discussing things with psmith. He'll just be belligerent and aggressive towards you while not really addressing the points.

👆

As much as I love heckling him and talking to him about lots of things, Dave is a stonewall when it comes to examining his beliefs. I don't hate him for it, but I understand he will never change on my terms. I engage in the debate when bored or to keep my debating skills from total atrophy.

3. Attempting to take the argument to me instead of valid points is more misdirection.

As opposed to ignoring the entire argument and posting pictures when it becomes apparent you don't have one?

The abuse of the system, which overwhelmingly benefits the rich at the expense of the poor is bad.

You just don't want to admit it because you benefit from the system.


Wonderful copout. You'll have to remind me how I benefit from the system when my family has been here for 24 years, thus having much less continuity than you and other Americans.

As much as I love heckling him and talking to him about lots of things, Dave is a stonewall when it comes to examining his beliefs. I don't hate him for it, but I understand he will never change on my terms

That's weird. Out of the both of us, you've been accused of the inability to change, whereas guys like RH have explicitly stated that my beliefs have changed precisely because they offered good arguments. Don't blame my inability to change on your inability to argue something logically, nor should you hide behind a mental child like Exodus, who hasn't shown the ability to debate on even a basic level.

Does that mean that I'm mentally a child, or that I'm a child who is mental (crazy)?

You haven't addressed any of my points. You haven't educated me. You've essentially said that rich people are responsible for A, B, and C, while poor people are essentially not responsible for anything because they're poor. That kind of logic resembles grade school naivete (which is ironic since you called me naive).

I said I hope you appreciate the free education, which means I handed it out. It's on your end to take it.

You're not properly addressing most of the points in my argument because you're misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I'm saying. I gave you the time and now I'm taking it away. I don't indulge the illogical and unreasonable any longer. I give them a chance and when they blow it, I walk.

Your summary, even at the bitter end of your response, is simply not what I'm saying, which is yet another strawman, whether it be intentional or because you don't get it doesn't matter. This is over.

You keep claiming I'm being illogical and not addressing your points, then you go on to not addressing any of my points, nor providing the faults or strawman arguments. If you want to weasel out of a debate, just say so. But the transparency is obvious when you randomly blurt out, "ur not being logical or addressing my points so I'm done". It's a nice sentiment but like your argument, not consistent with reality.

Originally posted by psmith81992
You keep claiming I'm being illogical and not addressing your points, then you go on to not addressing any of my points, nor providing the faults or strawman arguments. If you want to weasel out of a debate, just say so. But the transparency is obvious when you randomly blurt out, "ur not being logical or addressing my points so I'm done". It's a nice sentiment but like your argument, not consistent with reality.

No, you're just saying I'm not, like the dime-a-dozen generic debaters I've dealt with along the years. You're a parrot that does better haphazardly emulating what your betters do than being innovative.

You like to respond a lot because you're a guy who's big on quantity and not quality. You think winning is how much you respond and not how well. I've no time for that and prefer to invest my time into worthwhile debates, not sitting here for hours on end attempting to get you to even get your foot in the door with understanding my points.

Work on that and then we'll continue. It won't happen otherwise.

Originally posted by psmith81992
As opposed to ignoring the entire argument and posting pictures when it becomes apparent you don't have one?

Your inability to grasp my argument and defend your own with anything but conservative cliched and personal insults doesn't invalidate points I have made

I include the pictures to make your blood pressure go up.

Wonderful copout. You'll have to remind me how I benefit from the system when my family has been here for 24 years, thus having much less continuity than you and other Americans.

Well, the fact that they somehow acquired money to give you generous birthday bonuses, let you live at home forever, you have an expensive education that you claim you mostly self-paid for and admit to being taught how to be savvy in stocks at 18 from, IIRC, your father, oh and you paid more into taxes last year than most of us made in two years by fiddling with numbers and sales on your PC....

Yeah, let me know how hard your rags-to-riches story is please. The fact that you think welfare and food stamps are sustaining on any comfortable level tells me a great deal.

That's weird. Out of the both of us, you've been accused of the inability to change,

Lol.

I was a conservative, homophobic, Christian uptight idealistic moron well into my 20's. So no, not true.

whereas guys like RH have explicitly stated that my beliefs have changed precisely because they offered good arguments.

Like what specifically?

Don't blame my inability to change on your inability to argue something logically, nor should you hide behind a mental child like Exodus, who hasn't shown the ability to debate on even a basic level.

You are so funny. Never wrong.

No, you're just saying I'm not, like the dime-a-dozen generic debaters I've dealt with along the years. You're a parrot that does better haphazardly emulating what your betters do than being innovative.

Yes, thanks for the generic response. Not entirely surprising.

You like to respond a lot because you're a guy who's big on quantity and not quality. You think winning is how much you respond and not how well. I've no time for that and prefer to invest my time into worthwhile debates, not sitting here for hours on end attempting to get you to even get your foot in the door with understanding my points.

Work on that and then we'll continue. It won't happen otherwise.


So not only are you the sole arbiter on how much money is enough for a person, but apparently you're Ms. Cleo because you seem to know my motives for debating.

I do enjoy the insecure arrogance though, although that's normally reserved for seasoned debaters. You put a lot of emotional text in a chat box, called it an argument, and called it a day. Bravo.

Was that supposed to be intentionally ironic, how you responded to him calling you a generic debator who just copies from others, by calling his response generic?

Because I lol'd.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Yes, thanks for the generic response. Not entirely surprising.

So not only are you the sole arbiter on how much money is enough for a person, but apparently you're Ms. Cleo because you seem to know my motives for debating.

I do enjoy the insecure arrogance though, although that's normally reserved for seasoned debaters. You put a lot of emotional text in a chat box, called it an argument, and called it a day. Bravo.

like the dime-a-dozen generic debaters I've dealt with

You're a parrot

thanks for the generic response.

Your inability to grasp my argument and defend your own with anything but conservative cliched and personal insults doesn't invalidate points I have made

I include the pictures to make your blood pressure go up.


Your inability to respond to my arguments with anything but liberal rhetoric left you with the only recourse you're familiar with. Posting pictures and pretending my blood pressure went up, so as to validate your time.

Well, the fact that they somehow acquired money to give you generous birthday bonuses, let you live at home forever, you have an expensive education that you claim you mostly self-paid for and admit to being taught how to be savvy in stocks at 18 from, IIRC, your father, oh and you paid more into taxes last year than most of us made in two years by fiddling with numbers and sales on your PC....

Let me live at home forever? Expensive education? I don't know where you got the first one. As to the expensive education, you must be referring to the one year of law school I attended before I discovered I hate wearing pants.

Yeah, let me know how hard your rags-to-riches story is please. The fact that you think welfare and food stamps are sustaining on any comfortable level tells me a great deal.

The rags to riches story are my parents, not me. Because I never forget how lucky I am and as a result, why I give a considerable sum to charity. As far as welfare is concerned, I'm going to assume you've never been on it and therefore, laugh at you for laughing at my ignorance.

I was a conservative, homophobic, Christian uptight idealistic moron well into my 20's. So no, not true.

ROFL, I'm sure you were.

Like what specifically?

Well, that little sad religious argument of yours that got thrown to the dumps (predictably) when RH confirmed there is no contradiction between my private beliefs about same sex marriages, and my public beliefs. That was the last time you offered anything resembling an argument and I can understand your apprehension to offer a new one in another debate for fear of more failure.

And I don't suppose saying "no I'm not mad" would make you believe that, since you need validation.

Was that supposed to be intentionally ironic, how you responded to him calling you a generic debator who just copies from others, by calling his response generic?

Because I lol'd.


What's a debator? I'm glad you lol'd. Stay out of grown up conversations.

To be frankly honest, I completely skipped over the part where he called me generic and it was pure coincidence that I used it.

like the dime-a-dozen generic debaters I've dealt with

Now that i've actually looked at it (I haven't given your argument any serious thought until it looks like an argument), you called me a generic debater, yet you basically followed the handbook on generic debating.

Step 1: Create text
Step 2: Call it an argument
Step 3: Call the other guy wrong or illogical
Step 4: Say you're exiting the debate because of step 3.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

I may or may not be aroused.

Its from Game of Thrones. Something to look forward to.

Originally posted by psmith81992
What's a debator? I'm glad you lol'd. Stay out of grown up conversations.

To be frankly honest, I completely skipped over the part where he called me generic and it was pure coincidence that I used it.

Debator sounds cooler. Like a supervillain.

Self-ownage ftw.

Talking of which, I got through 30 minutes or so of the first episode of the first season before technical errors with my blu ray player and general fatigue got the better of me.

It's very good but fvcked up. I hope Martin doesn't do dark shit just for the sake of being edgy.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Self-ownage ftw. [/B]

Yea, you nailed it.

Beefy, you could always spin it so as to say that "self-ownage" is the only way in which you can be owned. Only you have the power to own yourself. No one else is capable of taking you down.

#spinzone

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Talking of which, I got through 30 minutes or so of the first episode of the first season before technical errors with my blu ray player and general fatigue got the better of me.

It's very good but fvcked up. I hope Martin doesn't do dark shit just for the sake of being edgy.

Well enjoy the ending of episode 1. Nothing dark or edgy at all happens.