The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Lol I'm done arguing with people's personal views. You want to believe in evolution, go right ahead. You want to support abortion, I don't give a damn. My reason is from looking at this, it probably has enough nerves to feel pain from right at the beginning. Please, read the details of an abortion, and if you still feel that this is appropriate to be doing to someone that could very well be a human being, come talk to me again and I will kill you for your psychopathic insanity.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Till it's born, it's still just bundle of flesh, blood and nerves. A burdensome bundle too, if one considers an abortion.

I think i will now.

By your logic why is it okay to kill a baby deer?

The idea that it's wrong to kill an unborn baby but okay to eat a puppy is inherently wrong. Humans multiply faster than any other mammal on the planet, I'm pretty sure. Even the concept of pro-creation isn't really a counter-argument.

And why is it wrong to make an unborn baby feel a milisecond of pain, if he even does (not proven), but it's okay for a women who's been raped to feel the greatest pain she has ever felt in her life (probably) before, during, and a whiile after the birth, and could possibly die in the process?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
um... its still a bundle of flesh blood and nerves after its born too. can we kill it then? By that logic you are a bundle of flesh, blood and nerves. Can I kill you?

I think i will now.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Till it's born, it's still just bundle of flesh, blood and nerves. A burdensome bundle too, if one considers an abortion.

by that logic, a 2 year old is a VERY burdensome bundle of flesh, blood and nerves. If it bothers me, as its father, can i just say, screw this, i'm done with it, i tried to get him to behave, i give up, i'm gonna have to kill it and save myself the hassle. Maybe try again later.

No, if your answer is even a joking yes, i wish you would save yourself the trouble. Society obviously doesn't allow such extreme measures. the person who follows the above course of action would be villianized, and rightfully so.

By saying that "up until birth" its just a bundle of body parts, and the second it is born it is now a human being that deserves the protection of the government, and basic human courtesy is sadly, an ignorant point of view.

You tell me: What is it about birth that magically changes a fetus into a baby? Why should the 2 hours of live birth, or 20 minutes C-section CHANGE what the baby already physically is. Perhaps years ago (though i'm thinking completely before modern medicine, so maybe 19th, or early 20th century) we could justify such thinking, that birth itself legitimizes the child, but to make such a claim now... We know better. Science proves differently. A fetus has the ability to live outside the womb months before abortions are illegal in most states.

partial birth abortion, which was banned a few years back, may be legitimized again soon. If you truly want to know what is going on: stop quoting things you have had repeated to you over and over "not a baby till birth" "can't feel pain" "medical procedure"
"amoeba, zygot only" and go find out for yourself exactly HOW LONG a pregnancy remains an amoeba. How long does it remain in that stage?

I challenge you to read the procedure of a partial birth abortion. Read it from a pro-choice website. Go ahead. From my research, such websites are remarkably devoid of details. Now cross-reference it with the procedure description from a pro-life site. You will find that the pro life description is NOT made up. It fits directly into what is described from the pro-choice site, merely putting it in laymen's terms, and less in medical terms that don't mean a great deal to the majority.

I was at best indifferent to abortion up until 3 years ago, when in my sophomore year in college, i had to write a paper on a political sociologic topic. I chose abortion. Researching it rearranged a lot of my priorities. Its honestly the most horrible, grotesque thing I have ever heard of being allowed in a so-called humanitarian, civilized nation.

Don't take my word for it tho. I'm of the opinion that not one person has ever changed their minds on one single thing by reading it on KMC. Just go check it out for yourself. Don't take what you've heard and repeat it like a parrot.

Originally posted by truejedi
by that logic, a 2 year old is a VERY burdensome bundle of flesh, blood and nerves. If it bothers me, as its father, can i just say, screw this, i'm done with it, i tried to get him to behave, i give up, i'm gonna have to kill it and save myself the hassle. Maybe try again later.

No, if your answer is even a joking yes, i wish you would save yourself the trouble. Society obviously doesn't allow such extreme measures. the person who follows the above course of action would be villianized, and rightfully so.

By saying that "up until birth" its just a bundle of body parts, and the second it is born it is now a human being that deserves the protection of the government, and basic human courtesy is sadly, an ignorant point of view.

You tell me: What is it about birth that magically changes a fetus into a baby? Why should the 2 hours of live birth, or 20 minutes C-section CHANGE what the baby already physically is. Perhaps years ago (though i'm thinking completely before modern medicine, so maybe 19th, or early 20th century) we could justify such thinking, that birth itself legitimizes the child, but to make such a claim now... We know better. Science proves differently. A fetus has the ability to live outside the womb months before abortions are illegal in most states.

partial birth abortion, which was banned a few years back, may be legitimized again soon. If you truly want to know what is going on: stop quoting things you have had repeated to you over and over "not a baby till birth" "can't feel pain" "medical procedure"
"amoeba, zygot only" and go find out for yourself exactly HOW LONG a pregnancy remains an amoeba. How long does it remain in that stage?

I challenge you to read the procedure of a partial birth abortion. Read it from a pro-choice website. Go ahead. From my research, such websites are remarkably devoid of details. Now cross-reference it with the procedure description from a pro-life site. You will find that the pro life description is NOT made up. It fits directly into what is described from the pro-choice site, merely putting it in laymen's terms, and less in medical terms that don't mean a great deal to the majority.

I was at best indifferent to abortion up until 3 years ago, when in my sophomore year in college, i had to write a paper on a political sociologic topic. I chose abortion. Researching it rearranged a lot of my priorities. Its honestly the most horrible, grotesque thing I have ever heard of being allowed in a so-called humanitarian, civilized nation.

Don't take my word for it tho. I'm of the opinion that not one person has ever changed their minds on one single thing by reading it on KMC. Just go check it out for yourself. Don't take what you've heard and repeat it like a parrot.

And personally, I'm not squeemish or very compassionate. Nor am I religious or mentally bound to social dogmas. Grotesque though abortion may be, war is worse. Yet apart from a myriad of memorials, poem, songs, and peace-parades, we haven't been too quick to lay that aside. Just saying.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown

And why is it wrong to make an unborn baby feel a milisecond of pain, if he even does (not proven), but it's okay for a women who's been raped to feel the greatest pain she has ever felt in her life (probably) before, during, and a whiile after the birth, and could possibly die in the process?

K your a ****ing moron.
Occured to you that that "pinprick" will be the GREATEST pain of the baby's life? and that baby will never get to live or see the outside world? maybe its not alive yet (which i seriously have no doubt that it is its just a rhetorical question) but if you kill it while it is still a fetus, you deprive it of its life. That's still pretty bad.

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't know if I want to continue. I'm shocked at a lot of your logic here. How about we agree to disagree.

Well, yeah, that seems like a good idea. I'll admit I apparently can't substantiate my point suitably, so yeah, it's best if I drop out of this.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
[B]K your a ****ing moron.

If this is too intellectual for you, you can go back to the OTF. You fit in better there anyway.

Occured to you that that "pinprick" will be the GREATEST pain of the baby's life?

A) Not proven, so it's meaningless.

B) That "greatest pain of a baby's life" will barely last a single second, so he wouldn't even feel it. When you get shot in the head you don't feel pain. So you're wrong anyway.

QED.

and that baby will never get to live or see the outside world? maybe its not alive yet (which i seriously have no doubt that it is its just a rhetorical question) but if you kill it while it is still a fetus, you deprive it of its life. That's still pretty bad.

Worse for the mother. And way to not answer more than half my post.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
If this is too intellectual for you, you can go back to the OTF. You fit in better there anyway.

Worse for the mother. And way to not answer more than half my post.

Wow. That was a terrible response.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
If this is too intellectual for you, you can go back to the OTF. You fit in better there anyway.

A) Not proven, so it's meaningless.

B) That "greatest pain of a baby's life" will barely last a single second, so he wouldn't even feel it. When you get shot in the head you don't feel pain. So you're wrong anyway.

QED.

Worse for the mother. And way to not answer more than half my post.

I ask you again to go research what you are talking about before you post. PinPrick? where did you get that idea? seriously, research a partial-birth abortion.

wait i thought partial birth abortion was illegal?

I believe it was made illegal by an executive order. It will most likely be reinstated during the upcoming term.

but still, a pinprick? The common kinds of abortion (leaving partial-birth completely out of the discussion) include a D&E, and aspiration. You can read about them here:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/abortion/abortion-procedures-4359.htm#methods

Thats from planned parenthood. The abortions sound extremely harmless, no?

Then Consider: What does "gently empty" mean. What is a curette? google image that.

Here is the point:-- and i still encourage you to go find a website from the other-side of the issue: planned parenthood is decidely pro-choice.-- Can you imagine yourself being torn apart by a vacuum? the words "gently empty" are ridiculously misleading.

I don't know where you are getting the idea of a pin-prick and its over, but that is rarely the case.

I'm interested in this little abortion debate. And so, here is why I am pro-choice:

A woman who has an abortion will generally be impregnated against her will- in other words, her body will basically be forcibly used in order to create a life form. A human being. Indeed, up until a certain point during the pregnancy (which I believe should be the timespan in which abortion is legal), the baby is entirely dependant on the mother- indeed, up until that certain point, the baby is not truly a person. It's a scientific thing that inhabits the mother against her will- and in a democractic, free nation, every single person deserves absolutely full control of what to do with their body. The baby, at that time, is just that- a part of the woman's body. If she has absolutely no will to keep it, NOBODY- especially not some goddamned book and a male-dominated organization- has the right to force her to keep sustaining life against her will.

That's all it is. I know some evangelical nutjobs (not saying there are any of them here) will give me some shit about 'The soul begins at conception! It's a person the moment the mother is impregnated!'. That's a load of crap. It's a person the moment it's capable of living without the help of a 'host'. Up until then, it's quite simply a bunch of cells which quickly grow- purely something scientific. It's not even truly a conscious being. This process can very easily be reproduced- but instead of forcing a woman to keep a pregnancy when she has no desire to maintain a baby- which would likely cause a terrible life for it- why can you not wait a bit until the woman chooses to have a baby, and a baby she can likely give a much better life to? 'Pro-life' beliefs are not truly pro-life. We can define life a scientific- but can you really call an unwanted baby something that has a 'life'? Do you not respect the mother's 'life'? Life isn't just being scientifically alive. It's being healthy, mentally and physically, and having the ability of taking that life in a direction you desire to.

Think about the following scenario. A woman is knocked-up. The reasons don't have to be fully given- the contraceptive failed or whatever. Generally, women who have abortion are underprivileged and simply can't raise a baby. And even if adoption is a possible option (which it isn't always is, especially with those poor families), can you expect a mother to get past the physical and mental stuff a pregnancy and a birth can cause? Have permanent guilt and trauma her entire life? Now, imagine that woman gets an abortion. A couple of years later, she gets a decent job, a supportive husband/boyfriend, and chooses to have a baby. What do you think is better? What do you think will give the mother and the baby a better 'life'? I can hardly call a woman with permanent psychological damage and an unwanted, underpriviliged child having a 'life'.

Now, I haven't read any studies on that, but I do believe it is logical to assume that a mother having an unwanted child is more likely to commit infanticide if she is forced to keep the baby. Not only does the child's life end brutally, so does the mother's (essentially). Why? Because a bunch of people denied her the ability to choose what to do with her body, and her reproductive abilities. A woman doesn't exist to be a baby factory- she should have the personal ability to control her body and her bodily functions. Pro-life? Don't get an abortion and/or discourage other people from doing so. But don't commit physical or psychological violence and certainly don't take a woman's ability to CHOOSE what she wants to do.

The sudden pain a baby will possible feel is nothing compared to what he will have to suffer through life, along with his mother. Pro-lifers should be more concerned with life outside the womb than actual life-inside it- the instant the baby can live on its own, it becomes a true person. Up until that, it's a scientific bunch of cells connected together and utilizing the mother's reproductive capabilities against her will. Do you call that humanitirian? Or a violation of human rights and forcing idealogy upon somebody else who you probably cannot possibly identify with (not that I can, of course)? I say it's the latter.

Choice, guys. Choice is the essence of freedom and democracy. A woman should choose what she wants to do for herself.

ya except its not part of her body.

Yes, it is. The uterus is inside the woman's body, and cannot exist without it. It is therefore within the limits of her own body.

sorry about the double post: but i'm running out of time on the edit i think.

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/unplannedpregnancy/abortionprocedures.html

This webiste details which procedures are used during which trimesters. As you can see, the D&E method is used up and past 22 or more weeks.(5.5 months) Since it is not entirely uncommon for a child to survive outside the womb before this point, you have a potential human being, instead of being delivered, being aborted. You tell me, at 5 months, is the mother being saved a ridiculous amount of trauma? Considering labor could be induced at that point, and the delivery of the baby completed, or a C-section, but instead, the third surgical option, a Dilation and Extraction is chosen.

This disregard for human life horrifies me.

Here is a website describing the procedures described on the Planned Parenthood site, just with more detail, and with less need of a medical degree. Partial Birth is described at the bottom of the page.

I just really encourage people to read and look into the facts themselves before forming an opinion on things that they have heard. I'm of the opinion that an America that was educated on the facts and procedures of abortion would demand that it be stopped. We are still a civilized people, and we still protect the oppressed.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yes, it is. The uterus is inside the woman's body, and cannot exist without it. It is therefore within the limits of her own body.

No. Until it can sustain life on its own, it's a part of the female reproductive system and a result of the woman's body being used AGAINST HER WILL. And the baby- being inside the woman's body- is most definetly still a part of it, just like the uterus is an organ.

And the mother has a right to choose who she supplies life to. Would you like to be forced to support the life of a stranger via your own body? I doubt it.

Edit: Truejedi, it all depends on the point of view. Anyone with a true regard for human life beyond just 'being alive' would understand that women who go through abortion likely need it in order to ensure themselves- and their potential future babies- a healthy, happier existence. And what the hell do I care how abortion is performed? Sure, it's gruesome. But it's like the difference between putting someone under anesthesia and slashing apart versus putting someone under anesthesia and poisoning him. The results are the same, and no pain is felt. One has to see beyond the 'horror movie' qualieis of the actual abortion- what is killed is killed painlessly, and what is killed is not yet a true human being (I already said I don't support abortion when the baby is capable of sustaining life outside the uterus).