The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You say that like it proves me wrong but I haven't seen anything to suggest that it is true, let alone damning.

You haven't seen? Ok? I've explained to you if poverty causes crime, then why are there white collar crimes? Like poor people, these people want to get ahead without doing much work so they resort to easier, illegal methods. This is FACT.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1527487

Read

Originally posted by Publius II
This is certainly not my experience.

Well, I am friends with some of the people I am friends with because I'm smart. There is no deterrent for me to be smart, but I have noticed that the normies (the masses of 'average' students) generally have an attitude that intelligence isn't good quality. Good grades (from their friends- I'm expected to get good grades) are met with taunts. Even a glimmer of competence seems like a liability for them.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Well, I am friends with some of the people I am friends with because I'm smart. There is no deterrent for me to be smart, but I have noticed that the normies (the masses of 'average' students) generally have an attitude that intelligence isn't good quality. Good grades (from their friends- I'm expected to get good grades) are met with taunts. Even a glimmer of competence seems like a liability for them.

Not every teenager is a dumbass who focuses on popularity

They are in my school.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
They are in my school.

QFT

The point is this. Stop blaming society and everyone else for problems. While injustice does happen, it is more of the exception rather than the rule. Take responsibility or place proper responsibility on the responsible parties. These bullshit justifications make people look ridiculous.

originally posted by Darth Sexy
I believe most are lazy and unmotivated, and abuse things like welfare.

originally posted by Darth Sexy
While injustice does happen, it is more of the exception rather than the rule.

😆

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
They are in my school.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Unemployment: I've already touched upon this. A very low percentage of the lower class is unemployed, and an even lower percentage of that can logically be substantiated to be unemployed because of laziness. I don't feel there's much to be said here, aside from the fact that it clearly isn't the chief cause of poverty in the United States. No, the vast majority of people below the poverty line are hard-working Americans whose skill set (reduced due to unequal opportunities, proven above) simply isn't sufficient for a high-paying job. Instead, they perform jobs that are far too 'disgusting' for the average wealthy American to perform.

Racism: The statistics speak for themselves. In comparison to whites, Hispanics and Blacks have a FAR (and I mean FAR) higher percentage of individuals below the poverty line. There are three possible interpretations for this:

A. These people are naturally less capable or intelligent.
B. They use perceived racism as an excuse for being lazy.
C. There are not equal job opportunities in the United States; racism is a very real social problem, even today.

I think we can immediately cross A out on the basis that it is a racist, Nazi-like point of view that has no realistic grounds. Therefore, we're torn between B and C. I personally cross B out on the grounds of the 'survival instinct' mentioned in my first point, which ultimately leaves me with only option C.

This would indicate that racism is largely intact today. Studies prove that America still experiences considerable segregation; black people live with black people, white people live with white people. Now, people should not be forced to live with each other if they don't desire to, but you can clearly see how this harms blacks. Now, you see, since the majority of people below the poverty line are non-whites who live in their own neighborhoods (poor neighborhoods), and it is already a studied fact that public schools in rural and typically poorer areas are of a lesser quality, it can be noted that non-whites get lesser opportunities in life, as a result of poverty and unequal opportunities.

Now, the factor of pure, unadulterated racism exists. I think the fact that considerably more non-Whites live in poverty and are unemployed, aside from backing up my above point, leads me to assume that many business owners would rather hire a white than a, say, a Latino because of their prejudice and fear of different ethnicities.

Talent: This is a very hard one to talk about without sounding like a bigot. Earlier in the debate, I supplied the quote: 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.' Here's what it means; certain people simply are capable of contributing less to society, simply because of innate 'talent' and such. But, regardless, the government should supply needy people (who majorly work, but can't contribute the same degree to society because of several factors) with what they need. In essence, weaker individuals should be enforced in order to make things 'fair'. Because, let's face it, some people are simply born more fortunate or skilled than others.

Some people simply lack the capacity to contribute to society as much as others; this is a very sad, but nontheless existing fact. But I don't believe it is fair that people receive absolutely no compassion because of their misfortune.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You haven't seen? Ok? I've explained to you if poverty causes crime, then why are there white collar crimes? Like poor people, these people want to get ahead without doing much work so they resort to easier, illegal methods. This is FACT.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1527487

Read

This was a terrible essay. Shame on you for inflicting it upon my brain. Not only was "rokuran" not an authoritative source he/she/it provided no numbers to substantiate the broad generalizations. You'll have to do better than user-generated content. Heck, Wikipedia is like 95% accurate but teachers won't let us use that- how much credibility do you think a site like this would have?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Because THEY do not have the proper education. You can blame that on society or on them, your call.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

The statistics do NOT speak of racism. In fact you haven't introduced a shred of evidence that racism is still dominating our country. Hell, look at who our president is.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96953415

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/12/racism.poll/index.html

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

A. These people are naturally less capable or intelligent.
B. They use perceived racism as an excuse for being lazy.
C. There are not equal job opportunities in the United States; racism is a very real social problem, even today.

Except B is everyone's favorite justification/get out of jail card. Lets NOT take responsibility, lets blame someone else! Let me ask you a question. When you see a murderer convicted, do you ask "What societal forces made him behave this way?" If so, then I rest my case.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

How about the fact that
Really? And it doesn't matter to you that white people make up 80% of America as of 2006? What point do you have exactly? None

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/19/dobbs.unemployment/index.html
(CNN) -- Here are some facts about unemployment among minorities from tonight's broadcast that you might find interesting.
[list]
[*] Whites (3.9 percent)
[*] Blacks (8.5 percent)
[*] Hispanics(5.8 percent)
[/list]
Source: Bureau of Labor Statisticsexternal link, May 2007

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

You're not born skilled. Where is this shit coming from?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Nope but I don't think everyone is entitled to the same amount of "compassion", when there is a different amount of contribution to society.

So you weigh individuals by their contribution to society? What about old invalids that can no longer contribute who've lost their family. Do we abandon them? When we start to judge an individual's worth by their capacity to contribute we begin to move towards a soulless meritocracy.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Huh. That's a real stumper. Blame socially anxious teenagers or painfully underfunded government institutions . What a tough decision.

I'm sick of the "oh look! we elected a black guy so that meanz rasism is dead!111" argument. It doesn't work:
http://www.acandidworld.net/2008/11/17/the-myth-of-top-down-culture-why-racism-is-not-dead/

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96953415

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/12/racism.poll/index.html

Yeah! Lets expect exactly the same results out of everyone![/quote]
I never claimed racism is dead. Learn to read. But at the same time there is NO evidence that racism is running rampant. You're showing me ****ing polls? From CNN? Don't give me this nonsense about bias if you can't provide one credible source for your argument. And for every CNN poll you show me, I'll show you one from Fox News and we can play the "lets let the media make our arguments" game all day long.

And do you live with the entire country? No? Then stop using your case study of your personal experience as a crutch. Come up with some facts or back off.

Fact that what?
So your argument is that people don't hire ethnic workers because there are more whites?

If you dismiss hard facts because of 'bias' then we're done. If the discrepancy was simply one of supply of white/black workers then the percentages wouldn't be so different.

Innate intelligence. I have an IQ of something definitely over 140. (No one has ever told me what it is but I was mentored and that is the cutoff.) I am simply better at school work than some of my peers.

So you weigh individuals by their contribution to society? What about old invalids that can no longer contribute who've lost their family. Do we abandon them? When we start to judge an individual's worth by their capacity to contribute we begin to move towards a soulless meritocracy. [/B]

Here, another source since you like to play the game of "most links equate to a good argument".

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/cause-and-effect-crime-and-poverty/

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is hilarious. For every source you provide, I can provide one for my arguments.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

you haven't introduced a shred of evidence that racism is still dominating our country. Hell, look at who our president is.

I'm sick of the "oh look! we elected a black guy so that meanz rasism is dead!111" argument. It doesn't work:
[websites]

Yeah! Lets expect exactly the same results out of everyone!

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

I never claimed racism is dead. Learn to read. But at the same time there is NO evidence that racism is running rampant. You're showing me ****ing polls? From CNN? Don't give me this nonsense about bias if you can't provide one credible source for your argument. And for every CNN poll you show me, I'll show you one from Fox News and we can play the "lets let the media make our arguments" game all day long.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

I would pose the same to you but you're too busy showing me biased polls.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

ROFL. ARe you serious?

DS: Whites make up 80% of the country.

I might have read it wrong, but it looked like you were using the ubiquity of whites as an excuse for unfair hiring practices. I pointed out the silliness. Care to tell us what you really meant?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

HARD FACTS? You showed me a damn CNN poll. The facts are that its perceived racism that is ongoing in this country, not racism as much itself. My point is when something happens, you are quick to blame society or the government.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/19/dobbs.unemployment/index.html
(CNN) -- Here are some facts about unemployment among minorities from tonight's broadcast that you might find interesting.

* Whites (3.9 percent)
* Blacks (8.5 percent)
* Hispanics(5.8 percent)

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics, May 2007

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Which means they have to work harder. How does this in any way reflect "opportunity"?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Here, another source since you like to play the game of "most links equate to a good argument".

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/cause-and-effect-crime-and-poverty/

See? Now we're getting somewhere.

The article isn't right, but it is more respectable. While it succinctly illustrates that crime can cause poverty, it does nothing to discuss the cause of the initial crime rate. This may be a case of a destructive positive feedback loop: Poverty causes crime which intensifies the poverty which... The point remains that you haven't proven crime as the prime cause of poverty while this site has shown a causal link with poverty as the independent variable.

Okay, who do you guys think would win? Bay Optimus Prime or Jackson King Kong?

Anyone who seriously says Kong is promptly going on ignore.

For the love of god, Faunus. I don't know why the things that go on in that forum, go on.

I might seriously need to replace a few fried brain cells. He's worse than Truculent.

Just read that thread, and all I can say is WOW.

Good call.

Originally posted by Publius II
This is certainly not my experience.

Nor mine.

I live in southern Kentucky, which is well within the heartland of the inbred, the inept, and the insufferably stupid. Despite that, I've been a homecoming candidate for three years (football and basketball), was voted "Most Unforgettable" (came in second place for "Biggest Flirt"😉 in my senior class superlatives out of a class of 275 students, and currently monopolize the attention of an obscenely hot girl.

I think the social stigma of being intelligent has been consigned to mythology; it depends on whether or not you can balance your intellect with a comfort in a social atmosphere. Sadly, there are plenty of brilliant guys and girls out there who come off as irretrievably awkward in a social setting.

That's when it's considered "uncool" to be smart.

No school in my area has picked a Homecoming Kong or Queen in decades. Something about self-esteem.

Originally posted by Publius II
No school in my area has picked a Homecoming Kong or Queen in decades. Something about self-esteem.

Homecoming Kong? I understand. Have they tried electing a Homecoming King instead?