The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by quanchi1123,287 pages

So you do not take into account the rule changes which greatly favors the offensive side of the ball. It's like saying Dan marinos single season doesn't matter since two guys broke it in the same year ironically when the rules changed. You can't compare raw numbers only across two eras with relevant rule changes.

Montana is also better with his legs. You seem to want to just look at the numbers, ignoring the cheating the organization as a whole has been stained with for over a decade, the two L's he had in the sbowl while being on much better teams than the Giants, etc.

Also Montana didn't need the tuck rule call and wasn't injured in the championship game as Brady was in his first sbowl run. Bledsoe played Brady didn't. Montana was the closest QB ever to win sbowls in a row but was knocked out of the game in the NFL championship loss to the Giants. The rules were much less kind to the qb's of his era as well.

I’ll never understand how losing a SB is considered a negative. Getting to the SB and losing is better than not getting there at all.

Originally posted by ares834
I’ll never understand how losing a SB is considered a negative. Getting to the SB and losing is better than not getting there at all.
In your opinion. But it isn't just the losses he was clearly on better teams that lost. 18-0 losing to a 10-6 wild card team that didn't even have a best defense all time kind of argument. Had randy moss, etc.

He lost again to a 9-7 squad. Brady has been on great teams coached by the best coach of all time. Oh yeah and they cheated for years.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you do not take into account the rule changes which greatly favors the offensive side of the ball. It's like saying Dan marinos single season doesn't matter since two guys broke it in the same year ironically when the rules changed. You can't compare raw numbers only across two eras with relevant rule changes.

Even with those changes being taken into account, Brady's numbers are still better by a significant margin.

Unless you honestly think the rule changes would've given Montana 20,000+ passing yards and 180 touchdowns? In which case, I would strongly disagree.

Also, Montana was playing with the best WR the league has ever seen, by a significant margin. Not like the current rules that boost the passing game affected him that much, considering that his go-to guy was leaving everyone behind, anyway.

Montana is also better with his legs. You seem to want to just look at the numbers, ignoring the cheating the organization as a whole has been stained with for over a decade, the two L's he had in the sbowl while being on much better teams than the Giants, etc.

You can keep pretending the Patriots have won so much because they're allegedly cheaters, but even these people [you], deep down know the truth.

I don't get it. You're actually using Montana's 4-0 SB record as an advantage over Brady? You know he's 4-0 because he didn't actually manage to reach more than 4, right? Brady's 5/7 record is much more impressive, considering he played in 3 more and has won 1 more.

Also Montana didn't need the tuck rule call and wasn't injured in the championship game as Brady was in his first sbowl run. Bledsoe played Brady didn't. Montana was the closest QB ever to win sbowls in a row but was knocked out of the game in the NFL championship loss to the Giants. The rules were much less kind to the qb's of his era as well.

Brady got sacked 5 times and was rattled pretty much 3 quarters of the game. Sure wasn't playing all cozy and protected. Still came back and won it.

Montana won two rings sans Jerry, tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Montana won two rings sans Jerry, tbh.

Sure, but I'm talking about his career overall.

Brady won this last SB without an actual no. 1 WR, as well.

Edelman is a number 1 when it counts, tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Edelman is a number 1 when it counts, tbh.

No. 1 slot WR, yes. He's no Jones, Jordy, Beckham, Brown, etc.

Those guys are on another level, yes. Still doesn't stop Julian from being a very good number 1.

He has been super clutch in the SB, I'd say he deserves the tag.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Those guys are on another level, yes. Still doesn't stop Julian from being a very good number 1.

He has been super clutch in the SB, I'd say he deserves the tag.

I'd rank him as a solid no. 2, with near no. 1 potential.

I just don't think he's as consistent as a true no. 1 should be.

Anyway, the point is that Brady plays well having a no. 1 WR or not, just like [or even better than] Montana.

Originally posted by Petrus
Even with those changes being taken into account, Brady's numbers are still better by a significant margin.

Unless you honestly think the rule changes would've given Montana 20,000+ passing yards and 180 touchdowns? In which case, I would strongly disagree.

This drastically alters the manner in which the games are played. The year the rules changed dan Mariano's record was broken by two qb's. Does that mean Dan Marino wouldn't drastically benefit from an era which greatly protects qb's and enhances offensive production. So just stop with the numbers when this era clearly bolsters everyone's numbers. Montana didn't have that luxury.


Also, Montana was playing with the best WR the league has ever seen, by a significant margin. Not like the current rules that boost the passing game affected him that much, considering that his go-to guy was leaving everyone behind, anyway.
[/B]
Montana won two sbowls without him. Brady failed the year he had one of the best wideouts ever to a 10-6 squad. Their offense was limited to fourteen points in the biggest game of the year. Brady was neutered.


You can keep pretending the Patriots have won so much because they're allegedly cheaters, but even these people [you], deep down know the truth.

I don't get it. You're actually using Montana's 4-0 SB record as an advantage over Brady? You know he's 4-0 because he didn't actually manage to reach more than 4, right? Brady's 5/7 record is much more impressive, considering he played in 3 more and has won 1 more.[/B]

They eeked out close victories so yea cheating does provide an advantage. They were also clearly caught. Mangini called bellichick out after he left the team so he was perfectly aware of the practices New England implored.

Brady was 3/4. No, because the teams Brady was largely on were fantastic on both sides of the ball and they were the heavy favorites two years they lost. Montana won a sbowl with a 10-6 record.


Brady got sacked 5 times and was rattled pretty much 3 quarters of the game. Sure wasn't playing all cozy and protected. Still came back and won it. [/B]
The defense was gassed so of course he tore them up in the fourth due to the 93 or so plays they had on offense. He played like shit when they pressured him in the first half. The defense stopped the Falcons on their final four possessions. Team game. Team win. Brady is great just not the best.

Originally posted by Petrus
No. 1 slot WR, yes. He's no Jones, Jordy, Beckham, Brown, etc.
What completely destroys your argument is Brady being held to 14 points with randy moss one of the best wideouts to ever play the game. They broke all the records and were 18-0 and Brady came up short.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This drastically alters the manner in which the games are played. The year the rules changed dan Mariano's record was broken by two qb's. Does that mean Dan Marino wouldn't drastically benefit from an era which greatly protects qb's and enhances offensive production. So just stop with the numbers when this era clearly bolsters everyone's numbers. Montana didn't have that luxury.

The rule changes aren't so incredibly significant that Montana would've been able to score 180 more TDs to equal Brady. There's no way. But fine, if you don't want to talk about numbers, let's leave them behind.

Montana won two sbowls without him. Brady failed the year he had one of the best wideouts ever to a 10-6 squad.

So? He had him for more than half of his career, winning SBs with him on the roster. Having the best WR of all time as your go-to guy for a lot of years is kind of a big advantage. Brady's had tons of different WRs throughout his career, and only a handful [or less] of actual elite no. 1 WRs.

Why does it matter when Brady failed, tbh? He succeeded a lot more than he failed. I mean, he's won 5 and played in 7 SBs, after all. And why does the record of the squad he lost against matter, lmao?

When the playoffs start, the record becomes irrelevant, and most of the time the team that comes in blazing/is on fire when the post-season starts will be the team that wins. Even if your team is 15-1 or 16-0 there's absolutely no shame in losing to a team with an inferior record, as said team could be playing better when it actually matters. If you think there's shame in that, you'd be arguing irrelevance, anyways.

Their offense was limited to fourteen points in the biggest game of the year. Brady was neutered.

Yeah, and Montana was one-and-out in the playoffs more times than Brady's ever been, so why don't we talk about those times in which Montana was neutered? 🙂

They eeked out close victories so yea cheating does provide an advantage. They were also clearly caught. Mangini called bellichick out after he left the team so he was perfectly aware of the practices New England implored.

There's actually never been factual, solid evidence [other than Spygate] that proves the Patriots have cheated, so. It's all alleged. And even so, Mangini easily accepted that the Patriots weren't gaining much by acquiring the tapes. If thinking they've always been cheaters eases your mind, then by all means, go ahead. Like it or not, with or without the cheating, the Patriots would still be the most dominant franchise of the past decade and a half.

Brady was 3/4. No, because the teams Brady was largely on were fantastic on both sides of the ball and they were the heavy favorites two years they lost. Montana won a sbowl with a 10-6 record.

You're spatting irrelevant nonsense. What does being heavy favourites have to do with anything? So what if they were? It changes nothing. Dude, no matter how you spin it and how you explicitly bring out what Brady did wrong, he still has done more than Montana.

The defense was gassed so of course he tore them up in the fourth due to the 93 or so plays they had on offense. He played like shit when they pressured him in the first half. The defense stopped the Falcons on their final four possessions. Team game. Team win. Brady is great just not the best.

Yep. He played like shit for 2 and a half quarters. He was sacked 5 times and was constantly pressured. But he came back and won big, like champs do.

You seem to conveniently think it's a 'team win', when football is a 'team game' since it was literally invented, which obviously includes the era in which Montana played. He won 4 SBs, which were all 'team wins'. What exactly is your point here?

Originally posted by Petrus
The rule changes aren't so incredibly significant that Montana would've been able to score 180 more TDs to equal Brady. There's no way. But fine, if you don't want to talk about numbers, let's leave them behind.
Yes, they were and I already told you why with Marino's record bring broke which stood for decades the year the changes were implemented.


So? He had him for more than half of his career, winning SBs with him on the roster. Having the best WR of all time as your go-to guy for a lot of years is kind of a big advantage. Brady's had tons of different WRs throughout his career, and only a handful [or less] of actual elite no. 1 WRs.
[/B]
He won two with him and two without him. Brady won zero with Moss and how many with Edelmen. So quit acting like a great receiver makes it easier when Brady didn't won any when he had Moss. Montana already won 2 without Rice anyways. You act as if he couldn't win one without him. Brady has always had bellichick and his schemes his entire career.


Why does it matter when Brady failed, tbh? He succeeded a lot more than he failed. I mean, he's won 5 and played in 7 SBs, after all. And why does the record of the squad he lost against matter, lmao?
[/B]
Because he lost with a superior team to an inferior team in the biggest games of the year. Twice. It wasn't like it was Brady bringing a shitty team into the big game he had the better record, numbers, etc. and was outplayed. Twice. Number of championships also doesn't denote superiority. That's a horrible point. Does anyone say Bill Russell is better than Jordan ? Think my Mexican friend.


When the playoffs start, the record becomes irrelevant, and most of the time the team that comes in blazing/is on fire when the post-season starts will be the team that wins. Even if your team is 15-1 or 16-0 there's absolutely no shame in losing to a team with an inferior record, as said team could be playing better when it actually matters. If you think there's shame in that, you'd be arguing irrelevance, anyways.

[/B]

That doesn't mean the strength and consistency of the skill shown goes out the window. Games matter. The sbowl matters. Losing when you're a heavy favorite for being the superior team to an inferior team matters. That hurts you. If he got waxed by an all time great defense that'd be one thing but that was never the case.

Yeah, and Montana was one-and-out in the playoffs more times than Brady's ever been, so why don't we talk about those times in which Montana was neutered? 🙂
[/B]

Montana played in a much more formidable era. When he lost he lost to great teams. The teams of the 80's and 90's were super powers compared to the watered down teams of the salary cap. Montana also had to combat dbs beating the shit out of his wideouts. It was a much more physical game which doesn't benefit the finesse passing game of the pats of today.

There's actually never been factual, solid evidence [other than Spygate] that proves the Patriots have cheated, so. It's all alleged. And even so, Mangini easily accepted that the Patriots weren't gaining much by acquiring the tapes. If thinking they've always been cheaters eases your mind, then by all means, go ahead. Like it or not, with or without the cheating, the Patriots would still be the most dominant franchise of the past decade and a half. [/B]

They destroyed the evidence because it undermines the integrity of the game. You can pretend they didn't do so and be a fool but your stance is the NFL embellished a scandal as well as ignoring coaches, mangini, etc. calling then out for cheating.

It's an asterisk and will always stain their legacy. Like it or not it's out there.

You're spatting irrelevant nonsense. What does being heavy favourites have to do with anything? So what if they were? It changes nothing. Dude, no matter how you spin it and how you explicitly bring out what Brady did wrong, he still has done more than Montana.

Yep. He played like shit for 2 and a half quarters. He was sacked 5 times and was constantly pressured. But he came back and won big, like champs do.

You seem to conveniently think it's a 'team win', when football is a 'team game' since it was literally invented, which obviously includes the era in which Montana played. He won 4 SBs, which were all 'team wins'. What exactly is your point here? [/B]

As I previously said a guy that wins more championships isn't by definition a better player. By that logic bill Russell is greater than Jordan. Brady benefited as do all qb's in a more QB friendly era which increases the advantage of the offense. Jordan lost sure but he never lost in the finals. Same can be said for Montana. Montana never threw a pick in four games. Brady threw a pick in his first one.

The team was gassed. 90 some plays and the defense allowed no points on the final four possessions. Holding the offense to three touchdowns is bellichick you ****.

Montana doesn't deserve all the credit either but in four of the biggest games in the universe he never threw a pick. He was flawless in a much more anti QB era.

My thoughts:

Montana was definitely a better SB quarterback than Brady. No interceptions, and he had a passer rating of around 122 in the SB, whereas Brady hovers around 90-95.

Brady is still the GOAT, because he's accomplished much more in a similar span of time. 7 SB's compared to 4, 4 SB MVPs, most playoff wins IIRC, etc. Best in the 97 year history of the sport.

Montana's peak (1989) was arguably better than Brady's though.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He won two with him and two without him. Brady won zero with Moss and how many with Edelmen. So quit acting like a great receiver makes it easier when Brady didn't won any when he had Moss. Montana already won 2 without Rice anyways. You act as if he couldn't win one without him. Brady has always had bellichick and his schemes his entire career.

I'm not necessarily talking about the SBs only. Montana had Rice throughout most of his career, which obviously helped him tremendously to bolster his numbers and overall statistics. I'd like to see how even more ridiculous Brady's numbers would be had he played with a prime Randy Moss for 7+ seasons. But whatever, we're not talking about numbers anymore, right?

Also, don't act like Belichick is such an advantage when Montana also won with one of the best coaches ever in Walsh.

Because he lost with a superior team to an inferior team in the biggest games of the year.

As I said, the fact that a team has a lesser record does not mean said team is less competent or worse as a whole. A 10-6 can be better than a 16-0 team once the playoffs start, particuarly if the 10-6 team is coming in with a hot streak and playing its best football in December.

Number of championships also doesn't denote superiority. That's a horrible point. Does anyone say Bill Russell is better than Jordan ? Think my Mexican friend.

Lmao, that's a horrible comparison; it's way off.

Number of championships doesn't necessarily denote superiority, yes. In this case, however, you're the one calling Brady out for losing a championship, so I naturally countered by saying he's won and been in more than Montana, either way.

That doesn't mean the strength and consistency of the skill shown goes out the window. Games matter. The sbowl matters. Losing when you're a heavy favorite for being the superior team to an inferior team matters. That hurts you. If he got waxed by an all time great defense that'd be one thing but that was never the case.

This has already been addressed above.

Montana played in a much more formidable era. When he lost he lost to great teams. The teams of the 80's and 90's were super powers compared to the watered down teams of the salary cap. Montana also had to combat dbs beating the shit out of his wideouts. It was a much more physical game which doesn't benefit the finesse passing game of the pats of today.

Now you're moving the goalposts. And you're also being a hypocrite. First, you call out Brady for being held to 14 points. Then, you say that since football is a team sport, championships don't matter that much in terms of individual superiority. In that case, and according to your own logic, the Patriots were held to 14 points, not Brady. I mean, the blame isn't nearly entirely on him for being held to a low total, because they're a team, right? 🙂

Afterwards, when I countered by saying Montana was neutered in the playoffs more often than Brady ever has been, you decide to change your argument to 'teams in that era were better', as a way to excuse Montana for his shortcomings.

So, which is it? You can't have it every which way you want.

They destroyed the evidence because it undermines the integrity of the game. You can pretend they didn't do so and be a fool but your stance is the NFL embellished a scandal as well as ignoring coaches, mangini, etc. calling then out for cheating.

Lol, it's not about pretending shit. If you want to believe they've cheated every single time/season they've won SBs, by all means do so.

I, however, am not a fool as to blatantly and blindly deny the Patriots' superiority over the rest of the league for the past decade and a half. There are a ton of excuses, and the 'they've always been cheaters' one is getting old.

It's an asterisk and will always stain their legacy. Like it or not it's out there.

We can agree on that.

As I previously said a guy that wins more championships isn't by definition a better player.

Very well, then don't call out Brady for losing 2 of them. 🙂

Jordan lost sure but he never lost in the finals. Same can be said for Montana. Montana never threw a pick in four games. Brady threw a pick in his first one.

Lmao, since when is not getting to the finals better than getting to the finals and losing? Flawed logic right there.

The team was gassed. 90 some plays and the defense allowed no points on the final four possessions. Holding the offense to three touchdowns is bellichick you ****.

Agreed. Still, does Brady deserve little/no credit for being the main offensive weapon in the most impressive comeback in all SB history?

Doubtful.

Montana doesn't deserve all the credit either but in four of the biggest games in the universe he never threw a pick. He was flawless in a much more anti QB era.

You said you didn't want to play the numbers game. Wanna compare Montana's playoffs stats to Brady's?

Originally posted by Petrus
I'm not necessarily talking about the SBs only. Montana had Rice throughout most of his career, which obviously helped him tremendously to bolster his numbers and overall statistics. I'd like to see how even more ridiculous Brady's numbers would be had he played with a prime Randy Moss for 7+ seasons. But whatever, we're not talking about numbers anymore, right?

He had Rice for two of his four sbowls. He won just as many with him as without him. The stats aren't comparable due to the rule changes as I have already previously explained you tool. Brady had moss and didn't win with him. The game isn't about stats it's about winning championships. Montana won two sbowls when he had a great wideout Brady didn't. Brady was 18-1. Held to fourteen points despite record setting stats. Brady's numbers went far down in the postseason that year.


Also, don't act like Belichick is such an advantage when Montana also won with one of the best coaches ever in Walsh.
[/B]
A coach and cheating. Plus most agree bellichick is better. Their defense this year was number one and limited the Falcons to three offensive touchdowns. He had a lot of help. Field position was always greatly in new England's benefit the entire Sbowl.

As I said, the fact that a team has a lesser record does not mean said team is less competent or worse as a whole. A 10-6 can be better than a 16-0 team once the playoffs start, particuarly if the 10-6 team is coming in with a hot streak and playing its best football in December.

[/B]

By this logic home field advantage doesn't matter neither do stats since all that matters is who plays better that day. Pats were heavily favored and they blew it. The offense wasn't great on the biggest stage. Brady being held to fourteen points is pitiful since he had a hall of fame wideout.


Lmao, that's a horrible comparison; it's way off.

Number of championships doesn't necessarily denote superiority, yes. In this case, however, you're the one calling Brady out for losing a championship, so I naturally countered by saying he's won and been in more than Montana, either way.
[/B]

Brady lost two. His team and his play was more consistent all year. Playing balls out matters in the sbowl. Ask Matt Ryan how being the MVP of the regular season matters when he underperformed at pivotal moments in the biggest game of the year. Hell, the pats were 3-1 without him this year. Their backup got hurt as well. The coach and this team is fantastic even without him. Montana's flawless play if the stuff of legend. Only he and Jordan are flawless when it matters and unblemished in the losses category of championships.


This has already been addressed above.

Now you're moving the goalposts. And you're also being a hypocrite. First, you call out Brady for being held to 14 points. Then, you say that since football is a team sport, championships don't matter that much in terms of individual superiority. In that case, and according to your own logic, the Patriots were held to 14 points, not Brady. I mean, the blame isn't nearly entirely on him for being held to a low total, because they're a team, right? 🙂
[/B]

Concession accepted.

The offense was record setting so he is the general of the offense. They failed. It is a team game and a team loss but Brady well underperformed to the consistency the offense under his leadership routinely scored all year. For an offense to be this historically on fire all year to be held to fourteen points they played poorly. Undeniable.


Afterwards, when I countered by saying Montana was neutered in the playoffs more often than Brady ever has been, you decide to change your argument to 'teams in that era were better', as a way to excuse Montana for his shortcomings.

So, which is it? You can't have it every which way you want.
[/B]

Team games. Brady has been on a team that went to more sbowls so naturally his playoff record is better. That doesn't denote superiority of his individual play over Montana's.


Lol, it's not about pretending shit. If you want to believe they've cheated every single time/season they've won SBs, by all means do so.

I, however, am not a fool as to blatantly and blindly deny the Patriots' superiority over the rest of the league for the past decade and a half. There are a ton of excuses, and the 'they've always been cheaters' one is getting old.

We can agree on that.

Very well, then don't call out Brady for losing 2 of them. 🙂

Lmao, since when is not getting to the finals better than getting to the finals and losing? Flawed logic right there.

Agreed. Still, does Brady deserve little/no credit for being the main offensive weapon in the most impressive comeback in all SB history?

Laughable.

You said you didn't want to play the numbers game. Wanna compare Montana's playoffs stats to Brady's? [/B]

They are a dynasty but they still cheated so it stains their history in any event. What other franchise has these massive nationwide cheating scandals in which the organization was punished by the commissioner ?

Brady underperformed below his expectations. They didn't lose 45-48. He scored fourteen points despite the numbers they put up all year.

He deserves a lot of credit for the scores. The defense shut them down when necessary as well to give them the chance to pull it off.

I am saying despite being in four games and the manner in which the dbs were allowed to maim wideouts he never really threw a pick. Brady in a softer era threw many sbowl picks and underperformed as well, twice. Losses in the biggest game matter. Eli owns him in direct matchups. He went down to win twice despite being on far less talented teams.

NOT MY TEAM NOT MY TEAM NOT MY TEAM NOT MY TEAM
NOT MY PRESIDENT NOT MY PRESIDENT NOT MY PRESIDENT
**** BRADY **** BRADY **** BRADY
GET YOUR HATE SPEECH OFF OF THIS FORUM

Petrus, Montana's playoff numbers are better than Brady's, lol.

Brady is the greatest, Rodgers is the most talented, Cam is the most versatile, Peyton is the smartest, and Montana is the most clutch.

Spoiler:
Dak has the brightest future

🙂