The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah, mate, I don't want this to turn into another four-page debate, but at least understand these facts and opinions:

1. Terrorism and radicalism always existed; however, as the stronger force at the moment, we have the ability to break out of the cycle of radicalism by not fighting their terrorists their own way, which only brews more hate and validates the terrorists' perceived cause. We have never in history engaged in full, rational negotiations with fundamentalists, because we have labeled them irrational beforehand, without considering their motivations in the slightest. Simply because it's the way it's always been doesn't mean it can't be stopped.

You don't even have to post a rebuttal. Just think about it.

Well, we more or less agree with this post.

1. Before some war (I can't remember when that particular strip of land was taken), a group of Palestinians lived in Jordan. They hated it. Despite being in a Muslim and Arabic place, it was ultimately rule by one of the different sub-groups of the Arab place that did not represent the Palestinian's desires. They view themselves as a race, for all practical intent, not part of a larger Arabic one; and every race has a right to their own national expression.

2. Hamas' motivations are logical and even 'good', from a certain point of perspective- they want to liberate their people and exist in a nation that is based on their interest and moralities. And it was Israel's aggression and imperialism that creates this motivation in the first place. The act of terrorism is quite illogical, but its motivation is, and the motivation is created by Israel. Without us, Hamas would not have existed, and it is within our power, as the stronger, modern, and more assured nation, to eliminate this motivation and thus potentially end terrorism against Israel.

3. Yeah, Arabic nations aren't interested in accepting the Palestinians. Sad fact.

4. Do you know how things were 5-10 years ago? Israel was in virtual chaos. Every day, there would be some sort of terrorist bombing that killed dozens. It was considered dangerous to get on a freakin' bus. Gaza has made things better; it's concentrated the Palestinians into a place with a government and a military, even if the government is far from stable and the military operating on terrorist tactics. It cannot be seen as the solution. From here, we must exploit this and engage in negotiations with Hamas, ultimately expanding their land, supplying them with money and UN assistance, and thus enabling them to achieve their ultimate goal of national expression. This will eliminate their motivation for senseless terrorism against Israel, instead of feeding and brewing that motivation by degenerating to their standards and their type of warfare.

5. Fundamentalists, you see, can be reasoned with. 13 years ago, when Yitzhak Rabin was prime minister, we came absurdly close to meeting a peaceful compromise with the Palestinian nation, despite their leader at the time being seen as an irrational fundamentalist. However, this was all ended by the violent and nationalistic actions of a single Israel. It did prove that the potential for peace exists, however, and that we must never condemn Hamas and other terrorist organizations as irrational extremists without understanding their causes, motivations, and desires.

2. Hamas' motivations are logical and even 'good', from a certain point of perspective- they want to liberate their people and exist in a nation that is based on their interest and moralities. And it was Israel's aggression and imperialism that creates this motivation in the first place. The act of terrorism is quite illogical, but its motivation is, and the motivation is created by Israel. Without us, Hamas would not have existed, and it is within our power, as the stronger, modern, and more assured nation, to eliminate this motivation and thus potentially end terrorism against Israel.

3. Yeah, Arabic nations aren't interested in accepting the Palestinians. Sad fact.

4. Do you know how things were 5-10 years ago? Israel was in virtual chaos. Every day, there would be some sort of terrorist bombing that killed dozens. It was considered dangerous to get on a freakin' bus. Gaza has made things better; it's concentrated the Palestinians into a place with a government and a military, even if the government is far from stable and the military operating on terrorist tactics. It cannot be seen as the solution. From here, we must exploit this and engage in negotiations with Hamas, ultimately expanding their land, supplying them with money and UN assistance, and thus enabling them to achieve their ultimate goal of national expression. This will eliminate their motivation for senseless terrorism against Israel, instead of feeding and brewing that motivation by degenerating to their standards and their type of warfare.

5. Fundamentalists, you see, can be reasoned with. 13 years ago, when Yitzhak Rabin was prime minister, we came absurdly close to meeting a peaceful compromise with the Palestinian nation, despite their leader at the time being seen as an irrational fundamentalist. However, this was all ended by the violent and nationalistic actions of a single Israel. It did prove that the potential for peace exists, however, and that we must never condemn Hamas and other terrorist organizations as irrational extremists without understanding their causes, motivations, and desires. [/B]

Nope, they left when that song started playing. You love Occam's razor so much, why not use it in this regard? Or is it pick and choose.

You find it easier to believe that two people (who probably paid to experience this artist's music and message) would leave the venue to demonstrate disagreement with the artist over a political, abstract concept than the possibility that they simply had to be somewhere else? If you want to think that go ahead. It just doesn't sound likely to me.

Edit: DS, are you going to respond to the last on topic post I made or should we call it quits? We disagree, that's about all that needs to be said.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Occam's Razor: The idea that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.

You find it easier to believe that two people (who probably paid to experience this artist's music and message) would leave the venue to demonstrate disagreement with the artist over a political, abstract concept than the possibility that they simply had to be somewhere else? If you want to think that go ahead. It just doesn't sound likely to me.

Let's review. They were Obama supporters clearly, and unlike most people, they were sitting for the concert. They looked like they were somewhat enjoying themselves but not to the point of getting up and really getting into it like most of Reliant Stadium. As soon as Toby Keith put on his American flag guitar and started playing "Angry American", they looked at each other, got up and started to walk out. Dunno about you but seems like the most likely one to me, and I was half drunk.

Edit: DS, are you going to respond to the last on topic post I made or should we call it quits? We disagree, that's about all that needs to be said. [/B]

I am but I'm going to the Bahamas tomorrow for 8 days so it would be pointless to respond, and then come back after 8 days forgetting. We disagree but it is by no means over and I intend to respond to every one of your posts.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
From the WORLDY perspective, Hamas' actions, like Hitler's actions, are cowardly and disgusting. Hell, they even used women and children as shields. They want to get rid of ISRAEL as we know it. Their priority for their people is secondary. Israel was NOT the aggressor, nor was it EVER the aggressor so you're either making up stuff or you're using that liberal mentality. I agree that sending people to Gaza isn't the best way to go but Hamas existed before that. The rightful blame goes on Hamas and ONLY Hamas. And for the last time, without us ISRAEL wouldn't exist because the Middle East will attempt to destroy it. IT happened in 67, 73, and will happen again. One of the biggest reasons the Middle East hasn't moved in for the kill in Israel is because we have a military infrastructure over here and I DOUBT we will get rid of it anytime soon.

Widely accepted morality and universally true morality is not the same thing. In order for a universal morality to be true, then it must be dictated by a higher, objective entity, whose existence cannot be proven. Thus, the existence of absolute morality cannot be proven.

But that's not the point. Hamas used women and children as human shields- in most cases willing women and children, who feel that sacrificing their life (a fact that is glorified in their culture, and they perceive as noble and good) is ultimately the only way to grant their people freedom. And we are responsible for shooting, despite knowledge of the women and children's existence there. See? The responsibility is dual again.

Hamas' existence and motivations has been created thanks to us. Hamas, in itself, is a resistance organization designed to eventually reach the freedom of the Palestinians, no matter how moronic and morally depraved their means are. They have a responsibility for choosing to act upon the motivation supplied by societal factors (in this case, Israel's colonization). Terrorism is not going to stop if we butcher Palestinians; it may stop it temporarily, but the hatred will brew again. By reverting to the standards of the terrorist, we act upon their playing field of violence and destruction: that is their ultimate desire. Thus, we ultimately feed their causes and cannot defeat them that way. The only way for us to stop terrorism is somehow to understand what causes it, and remove that cause.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Show me

Do you know what the Palestinian refugee situation is? Well, after the Jewish takeover of Israel and multiple wars, many Palestinians fled or were essentially exiled from Israels. The number is in the hundreds of thousands. With the exception of Jordan (which cannot accept the entirety of the Palestinian people, who, in any case, desire to have a free country that displays their national interest), none of the countries which refugees or descendants of refugees inhabit give them citizenship. See?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Errr you're right, I remember why I didn't go to Israel then. All I know was, I was in Israel in 2003 and NOTHING was happening that the news media was allegedly claiming. There will be no negotiations from Hamas, do you not understand? We either give them Israel, disappear, or fight. You keep thinking everyone can be rehabilitated and reasoned with which is far from reality.

The fact that you did not see does not mean it did not exist. I don't think the media was lying about the suicide bombings, eh?

How do you know Hamas is unreasonable if we have NEVER tried negotiating with them? Branding them as irrational fundamentalists is ignoring their perfectly logical motivation (supplied by us) and is completely unrealistic. We must attempt to negotiate with them, in order for us to analyze their 'reason' and potentially eliminate the causes for terrorism. We can do it. It's certainly a far better alternative than attempting to kill the ideology that drives terrorists.

By the way, we should give them a large portion of Israel, in my opinion (how large is up to debate), and half of Jerusalem. I think human beings can inherently see reason: if we display it to them as the only compromise we can come to, then they will jump on the opportunity. It's an infinite improvement from their current situation.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Fundamentalists can be reasoned with? Prove it. History says otherwise, that's why they're called radical fundamentalists. Potential for peace always exists but your belief in humanity is delusional. Humans by nature are a destructive people and will always be that way. There is NOTHING to indicate the opposite, as you would love to believe.

Yitzhak Rabin and his negotiation with people branded as 'fundamentalists' by the right-wing. It would have worked. It came close to working. Peace was within a moment's grasp.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Widely accepted morality and universally true morality is not the same thing. In order for a universal morality to be true, then it must be dictated by a higher, objective entity, whose existence cannot be proven. Thus, the existence of absolute morality cannot be proven.

Yitzhak Rabin and his negotiation with people branded as 'fundamentalists' by the right-wing. It would have worked. It came close to working. Peace was within a moment's grasp.

Maybe, maybe not.You have no way of knowing.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think you and I have different understanding of universal. I believe there are two definitions. Yours AND mine. If everyone accepts it then by definition it's "universal", rather than if most accept it, it's the "majority".

Universally accepted =/= true. If even one society holds a standard which the majority of societies accept, then the standard is not universally agreed upon. Not to mention that its absolute rightness, beyond subjective viewpoints, cannot be substantiated.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wow you'll go through anythiing just to justify retardation? Prove that these children and willing to sacrifice their lives, or drop the argument altogether because the more you type, the more you show that you would go through any lengths to blame ANYBODY but the actual culprit. So no, HAMAS is responsible. We attacked Gaza as a retaliation, or do you not know what's going on in Israel according to reality?

I do admittedly rely on news and external information for that, which isn't the end all be all, but is still better than nothing. There is nothing to indicate it isn't true.

I do know what is going in Israel, and I think we had a right to launch a military attack. That being said, that military attack was excessive, purely managed, and badly ended. Hamas used women and children as human shields- but we choose to destroy them. Who is to blame?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hamas existed before us. They're no different than Osama's Taliban. They want Radical Islam to dominate the Middle East, and they want the Jews gone. We don't want to butcher the Palestinians, nor do we want to butcher the Muslims. We want to annihilate the radical fundamentalists. You're not going to remove the cause, unless you want to remove Israel and the Jews, as well as any Western Influence.

I'm sure, in their idealistic world, Hamas would want to see the entire world as a Muslim place. But I think people are inherently intelligent. Hamas' violent reaction and resistance against Israel is for a distinct reason, and that is Israel's blatant prevention of Palestinian national expression and freedom; in short, we have the power to control the motivation and ultimately reach a compromise that works for everybody.

You cannot annihilate fundamentalism. By killing them, and inevitably butchering the innocents (and lowering yourself to terrorist genocide), you simply feed the philosophy of fundamentalism and brew more hate and conflict. Force is not the way to resolve it. Going by the idea that human beings have an inherent degree of logic in them, reaching a peaceful compromise is the only potential way to prevent fundamentalism from causing destruction in our society.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Show me any history that states the Jews began systematically exiling the Palestinians after they became a state in 1948. Show me ANY proof for your claims.

Jews did not directly exile the Palestinians; however, Jews did force Palestinians out of their homes. Certain Palestinians chose to lee to Arabic countries, where they felt they would be treated as citizens and have a degree of their moral beliefs within governmental low. However, these countries refused to grant them citizenship and still do to this day.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, but the media has a knack for exaggerating and manipulating facts to fit their agenda, whether its CNN or Fox News.

Saying 'terrorist bomber blew up a restaurant, killing 5 and injuring 11' is not exaggeration. It is realism. I hardly see a reason to believe the media was grand-stating and twisting reality, although they are still fallible humans and, outside of cold, hard facts, every piece of information should be met with skepticism.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How do you reason with suicide bombers that want to see you and your people DEAD? Your ideal world is an illusion dude, sorry to break it to you. All of your hopes and dreams for peaceful humanity contradicts everything humanity stands for.

By understanding why they want to kill us. They want to kill us because of many reasons, some of them spurred by us and thus control-able. Through this, we can reach a compromise in which both sides will find satisfaction. Saying 'Hamas is stupid and extremist so they will always want to blow us up!' reduces them to juvenile people who do it 'just because'. That is moronic- Hamas is an organization fighting for a cause via means we find abhorrent and repulsing. If we give them that cause and enable them to understand that it is the best possible thing they will get, we can reach peace. And we will never know until we try.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's your problem. You think human beings can see reason and are inherently good, while I don't. In fact, the majority people are either incompetent, or lack any kind of self awareness. So no, we shouldn't give them a part of Israel. And if we ever do that, they'll want all of Israel next. What we should do is allow them to live among us as we always have and hope they don't try to destroy us.

If people are stupid, incompetent, sheepish, evil, sadistic creatures, what is the point of morality? If that is what you believe, then any kind of morality is a lie that defies our natural purpose upon the world. There is no point to it- it is merely a self-deception. We have nothing to fight for.

I don't want to believe in that. I think that people always have logical causes which we can understand and thus use for negotiations. Yes, they'll probably want all of Israel next- but we have to explain that this is the best compromise they will get. If the Palestinians have funding, are regulated by neutral UN forces (for a time), are helped to build a thriving economy, having decent housing and space, then there is no logical cause for them to ruin it all via terrorism. Saying "people are inherently evil so they will always try to destroy the world; there is no point in explaining why someone acts a certain way" is not realistic or pragmatic, which conservatives so often like to say. It is moronic, childish, simplistic, and ultimately hopeless.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Maybe, maybe not.You have no way of knowing.

Nor do you have any way of knowing if Hamas has any reason. We will never know until we try- and since, from a logical perspective, it is possible to examine Hamas' motivations and our hand in it, it is possible to build upon that aspect for achieving peace.

We have never done extensive negotiations with Hamas because we choose to portray them as mindless, irrational terrorists and fundamentalists, without even bothering to see the logic in their action. Thus, we must try now- I'm sure that we will find our stigma and initial belief is simply false.

I'm going to the Bahamas tomorrow for 8 days

Wow. Sweet. Have fun!

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Universally accepted =/= true. If even one society holds a standard which the majority of societies accept, then the standard is not universally agreed upon. Not to mention that its absolute rightness, beyond subjective viewpoints, cannot be substantiated.

We have never done extensive negotiations with Hamas because we choose to portray them as mindless, irrational terrorists and fundamentalists, without even bothering to see the logic in their action. Thus, we must try now- I'm sure that we will find our stigma and initial belief is simply false.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Wow. Sweet. Have fun!

Thanks bro, i'll look over the religion argument when I return.

I have the flu.

WTF.

Originally posted by Eminence
I have the flu.

WTF.

It's because you're gay and G-d looks down on homosexuals..

Well, I did shave yesterday...

****.

Originally posted by Eminence
Well, I did shave yesterday...

****.

There's nothing about shaving. Homosexual=death by bizungee.

Hmm so Revan looks like some Dr. Doom clone in this sketch...

http://www.ronchan.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/sketches/starwars-kotor-groupsketch1.jpg

Yes he does. Btw, why was there virtually no activity over the past bunch of days? And I'm too lazy too respond to Sexy's stuff and then wait a week for him to come back. Meh.

Looks more like Sidious too me, sans the glove.

just watched religulous