Originally posted by The_Tempest
The best part of watching TROS was realizing that Janus, Nai, and the rest of the Antediluvians who watched it had to suffer through Palpatine zapping the biggest goddamn starfleet in Star Wars history from his Sith recliner while muttering to themselves yeah ragnos couldve totes done that and rocking back and forth in their cinema chairs.
Spoiler:
And then Rey deflects it like it's not even a thing. Palpatine's bloodline seems incredibly strong.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The last "great" movie this franchise produced was in 1980 and, honestly, I'd sooner rewatch the mediocre ROTS.
I thought you were a prequel defender...
Anyway I know you must have loved Palpatines feat and importance. But did you not hate his characterisation in this?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I thought you were a prequel defender...Anyway I know you must have loved Palpatines feat and importance. But did you not hate his characterisation in this?
I love the premise of the prequels: flawed prodigy succumbs to his personal foibles and temptation as a galactic republic mutates into a fascist dictatorship, both thanks to the machinations of The Most Powerful And Greatest Sith Lord Ever.
But the prequels as films are dogshit, there's no two ways about it.
Regarding the Emperor... no. There's fundamentally nothing different about the robed ******* hanging from a fishing pole in this movie and where we left him at the end of Return of the Jedi.
He's the same cackling madman I've always adored. Ian killed it.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
That's what he was brought in to do with Star Wars. Coax over the public outrage toward the dogshit prequels, create a blank canvas for others to work on, and then hand over the reins to someone else. Disney didn't calculate Rian ****ing up the franchise so badly though, so JJ had to come back to coax over the fanbase a second time. He's basically the king of fan service.
What are you talking about? This whole mess started with JJ.
Even Mark Hamill hated the script for TFA and thought his character was wasted in it.
I noticed how Disney was making all these Yahoo stories about "Episode 1 sucks" or "Attack Of The Clones sucks" and I thought it was annoying propaganda.
Those movies are easily better than any of the Disney films - simply by the content of the stories - like the hundreds of Jedi battling droids, which was fairly epic, or the duel with Darth Maul, Padme in a Dominatrix outfit, Jango Fett, etc.
Rian didn't **** up the franchise - he just made the Agenda in TFA all the more obvious and he made the fact that TFA sucked more obvious.
That's why by TROS, everyone knew what was up.
And JJ was directing that film like TFA - but it didn't matter - Rian or JJ, they both suck.
And yeah, JJ is definitely not the king of fan service.
You really think we fans wanted to see a flashback of Leia kicking Luke's ass?
We don't want that.
The fans would want to see a digitally de-aged Luke fighting Joruus C'Baoth and Thrawn - that's fan service!
JJ was doing nothing but towing the company-line - Disney's feminist Agenda that ultimately ruined and destroyed the Star Wars franchise.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
1)But the prequels as films are dogshit, there's no two ways about it.2)Regarding the Emperor... no. There's fundamentally nothing different about the robed ******* hanging from a fishing pole in this movie and where we left him at the end of Return of the Jedi.
He's the same cackling madman I've always adored. Ian killed it.
1) Urm, of course there is. Hence art being subjective.
2) I didnt see that at all in this. He had great memorable lines in ROTJ, very fun to imitate. In the prequels he got a great back story. In this They just they turned him into a generic all powerful villain IMO.
And yes maybe if I switched my brain off I could enjoy this. But given I dont, it was just such shit poor story telling not explaining how Palpatine was back, making Rey as powerful as all the Jedi whove ever existed... just because. Cool for versus forums that theres no disputing anymore who the most powerful Jedi and Sith of all time are. But shit poor storytelling and characterisation IMO.
And by the end of it all we have literally done a 360 turn from the end of ROTJ. Making this trilogy (very unlike the Prequels) completely pointless.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Urm, of course there is. Hence art being subjective.
Sure. And if you think the prequels are good films, you're nuts. Poor dialogue, poor pacing, questionable acting. These films aren't masterpieces. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion.
2) I didnt see that at all in this. He had great memorable lines in ROTJ, very fun to imitate. In the prequels he got a great back story. In this I just they turned him into a generic all powerful villain.
You don't wanna see it. I hate TFA as much as the next guy and 50% of TLJ is boring as hell and the other half is meh. But I went into each of these movies with an open mind and based on the shit I've read out of you in the Movie Forum off and on over the last year, you were convinced this film was gonna suck long before it came out.
TROS Sheev ain't the Machiavellian mastermind he was in the prequels, no. But he wasn't in ROTJ either. He was a moderately cunning, putrid, petty dickhead who'd gotten rusty after 20 years of victory and supremacy. TROS Sheev is a continuation of that: an even more putrid, petty, degraded jerk who has a measure of cunning but isn't quite the brilliant chessmaster he used to be.
That's the corrosive nature of the dark side for you.
And yes maybe if I switched my brain off I could enjoy this. But given I dont, it was just such shit poor story telling not explaining how Palpatine was back, making Rey as powerful as all the Jedi whove ever existed... just because. And by the end of it all we have literally done a 360 turn from the end of ROTJ. Making this trilogy (very unlike the Prequels) completely pointless.
The sequels in their entirety are pointless. It was an unnecessary premise. TFA set the table for an awful soft reboot that cheapened everything that came before. TLJ then took that awful premise and tried to do something interesting but more or less shit the bed. TROS is a mess, but it's the most fun of the stuff for me.
Originally posted by Lighter332No. Luke was wasted in TFA, but only in the sense that he wasn't in the movie at all.
stuff
The worst Disney Star Wars film is at worse equal to the worst prequel film, which is Attack of the Clones. The rest are better films even if less exciting in content. The worst things you can say about TFA and RoS are that they're boring. By comparison TPM and AotC are boring while also having cringe-inducing dialogue, awful acting across the board, etc. And was Luke wasted any more in TFA then Mace and Dooku in the prequels?
The fans would want to see a digitally de-aged Luke fighting Joruus C'Baoth and ThrawnNo.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sure. And if you think the prequels are good films, you're nuts.
Yeah me and over half of professional movie critics are nuts. 80% of them for ROTS.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You don't wanna see it. I hate TFA as much as the next guy and 50% of TLJ is boring as hell and the other half is meh. But I went into each of these movies with an open mind and based on the shit I've read out of you in the Movie Forum off and on over the last year, you were convinced this film was gonna suck long before it came out.
Actually I went into both TFA and TLJ excited as fuk. But why would I be just as excited for this one, when I have already been fooled twice, and it already looked pretty clear this was going to end the same as the OT?
With Abrams directing it was almost guaranteed.
And yet Even with This, I was completely willing to enjoy it. And I in fact could have if they didn't resort to lazy storytelling and didn't have both Kylo and Reys arcs imitate both Vader and Lukes to the very end.
Originality works for me.
Also I absolutely loved Rogue One, after hating on TFA.
So kindly refrain from the judgments. Ive seen how you're questioning Ares in the other forum for being salty. Even though the vast majority on the forum feel this film sucked. Surely its not hard to get that a Star Wars fan might be salty after being super excited for this trilogy at the start, but instead getting this pointless repetitive nonsense, whilst ruining some of the lore and characters.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
TROS Sheev ain't the Machiavellian mastermind he was in the prequels, no. But he wasn't in ROTJ either. He was a moderately cunning, putrid, petty dickhead who'd gotten rusty after 20 years of victory and supremacy. TROS Sheev is a continuation of that: an even more putrid, petty, degraded jerk who has a measure of cunning but isn't quite the brilliant chessmaster he used to be.That's the corrosive nature of the dark side for you.
Thats great it worked for you. But like I said the big difference is, ROTJ Palpatine was just so damn fun. TROS Palpatine was just there to be the all powerful villain for Rey to overcome. Even though she hasn't earned that level of victory in the slightest. Plus of course it was a desperate attempt to get the fans back on board.
And what also didn't work for me, was you know the shit poor lazy storytelling not explaining how he's back. Like at all.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah me and over half of professional movie critics are nuts. 80% of them for ROTS.
So, bluntly speaking, your argument sucks.
By that reckoning, TFA and TLJ (both of which you hate, right?) are not only excellent, but are both better than the prequels since both of them achieved higher critical acclaim than any of the prequels.
Appealing to professional movie critics is a dead end.
Actually I went into both TFA and TLJ excited as fuk. But why would I be just as excited for this one, when I have already been fooled twice, and it already looked pretty clear this was going to end the same as the OT?With Abrams directing it was almost guaranteed.
And yet Even with This, I was completely willing to enjoy it. And I in fact could have if they didn't resort to lazy storytelling and didn't have both Kylo and Reys arch imitate both Vader and Lukes to the very end.
Originality works for me.
Sure, sure.
So kindly refrain from the character judgments. Ive seen how you're questioning Ares in the other forum for being salty. Even though the vast majority on the forum feel this film sucked. Surely its not hard to get that a Star Wars fan might be salty after being super excited for this trilogy at the start, but instead getting this pointless repetitive nonsense, whilst ruining some of the lore and characters.
This trilogy was dogshit from the beginning. TROS ain't a gamechanger in that respect.
Thats great it worked for you. But like I said the big difference is, ROTJ Palpatine was just so damn fun. TROS Palpatine was just there to be the all powerful villain for Rey to overcome.
All this is nebulous to me. I'm not sure how a robed cackling madman spouting generically evil lines is any less enjoyable when he shows up a second time doing effectively the same thing while being played by the same actor.
Hell, if anything, I'd understand the criticism that Abrams doesn't offer anything new to the Emperor beyond twisting the dial on his Force powers to 11, but Palpatine in TROS is no substantively different than Palpatine in ROTJ in both form and substance. He's the same cackling Space Wizard trying to tempt people to the dark side he was at Endor.
Even though she hasn't earned that level of victory in the slightest.And plus, you know the shit poor lazy storytelling not explaining how he's back.
Yes, them not explaining his return was awful.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
So, bluntly speaking, your argument sucks.By that reckoning, TFA and TLJ (both of which you hate, right?) are not only excellent, but are both better than the prequels since both of them achieved higher critical acclaim than any of the prequels.
Appealing to professional movie critics is a dead end.
I think you're completely missing the point that film is subjective.
But if it's mentioning professional critics is your complaint, then I can bring up that the data shows most casual audiences are also "nuts" along with me, given they rated all the prequels with an A- cinemascope, which would at least classify in the "good" category.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This trilogy was dogshit from the beginning. TROS ain't a gamechanger in that respect.
No, but there's always hope. Even if the trilogy was doomed, this could have been a good film in it's own right.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
All this is nebulous to me. I'm not sure how a robed cackling madman spouting generically evil lines is any less enjoyable when he shows up a second time doing effectively the same thing while being played by the same actor.Hell, if anything, I'd understand the criticism that Abrams doesn't offer anything new to the Emperor beyond twisting the dial on his Force powers to 11, but Palpatine in TROS is no substantively different than Palpatine in ROTJ in both form and substance. He's the same cackling Space Wizard trying to tempt people to the dark side he was at Endor.
The same, except a more boring version IMO.
Ares made a good point though (kind of obvious but I didn't think of it before), that Palpatine seems kind of dumb telling Rey his transference plan. So she just didn't kill him.
In ROTJ he tells Luke his plan, but out off arrogance and over confidence and to trigger Luke. This guy didn't seem that good. But whatever, I don't care. Just didn't work for me the way ROTJ did.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yes, them not explaining his return was awful.
Yes it was.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I think you're completely missing the point that film is subjective.But if it's mentioning professional critics is your complaint, then I can bring up that the data shows most casual audiences are also "nuts" along with me, given they rated all the prequels with an A- cinemascope, which would at least classify in the "good" category.
Hard to miss a point that I explicitly acknowledged in a previous post: "You're welcome to your opinion."
Appealing to critics or mass audiences or anybody in between's a dead end. That only measures whether a thing is popular, not whether or not it's good.
The prequels have shit dialogue, shit pacing, questionable acting performances. The fact that the sequels suck too (but often for different reasons) doesn't retroactively change the poor elements of the prequels.
My interest in the prequels derives from their premise, Ian McDiarmid, and the surrounding fiction like Stover's ROTS novel, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Shatterpoint, Republic Commando, the Republic comics, etc.
The films themselves are not masterpieces and shouldn't be held as some sort of creative standard for Star Wars. This franchise can do and has done better than the prequels and better than the sequels.
It's a damn shame we'll apparently never see that again, though.
No, but there's always hope. Even if the trilogy was doomed, this could have been a good film in it's own right.
It could've been better than it was, but good? Probably not.
Much like TLJ was doomed in part due to a shitty set up from TFA, TROS was screwed from the beginning by what TLJ left Abrams with.
But, again, for my money TROS is by far the most entertaining of the three sequels, despite its many warts.
The same, except a more boring version IMO.
Ares made a good point though (kind of obvious but I didn't think of it before), that Palpatine seems kind of dumb telling Rey his transference plan. So she just didn't kill him.In ROTJ he tells Luke his plan, but out off arrogance and over confidence and to trigger Luke. This guy didn't seem that good. But whatever, I don't care. Just didn't work for me the way ROTJ did.
As you say, Sheev made that mistake before with Luke in ROTJ. Because he's not the careful chessmaster he was in the PT. After 20 years of complacency and dark side corrosion, he's hardly a master of subtlety.
TROS simply takes that further along. Sheev's older, more corroded, even deeper in the throes of the dark side, and has apparently been puppeteering galactic events once more for the last 30 years behind the First Order.
So he's even more arrogant, complacent, and corrupt.
This isn't a game changer or deal breaker. But the fact that it still is for you for some mysterious and incomprehensible reason is fine.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Hard to miss a point that I explicitly acknowledged in a previous post: "You're welcome to your opinion."
Yeah and then you contradict that open mindedness and acceptance of film being objective by arrogantly claiming if I don't agree with you I am "nuts".
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Appealing to critics or mass audiences or anybody in between's a dead end. That only measures whether a thing is popular, not whether or not it's good.
I simply pointed out you're calling me nuts specifically, but by default you're actually accusing a lot of people of being "nuts". So not sure which part of that you're arguing about now.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The prequels have shit dialogue, shit pacing, questionable acting performances.
And they also have some great dialogue and some great performances.
But there's a lot more to a good/great film than just the things you've mentioned. The mythos and storytelling of Lucas's Star Wars (Episodes 1-6) is unparalleled in fantasy film making. In my opinion of course.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fact that the sequels suck too (but often for different reasons) doesn't retroactively change the poor elements of the prequels.
I mean I guess this would make sense for you to bring up if I used to shit on the prequels, but now say they're great because of the sequels. However I don't recall any of that happening.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The films themselves are not masterpieces and shouldn't be held as some sort of creative standard for Star Wars.
Episodes 1-6, are one epic saga IMO. The most epic fantasy saga we have ever gotten on film. So yes that is the standard for me.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's a damn shame we'll apparently never see that again, though.
I mean epic isn't easy to repeat. But I'd settle for just good quality stuff that expands the universe. Like a Rogue One or like The Mandalorian.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
As you say, Sheev made that mistake before with Luke in ROTJ. Because he's not the careful chessmaster he was in the PT. After 20 years of complacency and dark side corrosion, he's hardly a master of subtlety.TROS simply takes that further along. Sheev's older, more corroded, even deeper in the throes of the dark side, and has apparently been puppeteering galactic events once more for the last 30 years behind the First Order.
So he's even more arrogant, complacent, and corrupt.
This isn't a game changer or deal breaker. But the fact that it still is for you for some mysterious and incomprehensible reason is fine.
His mistake with Luke wasn't quite on the same level though. He triggered Luke in lashing out with anger. With Rey he casually told him his plan, which she would have completely fallen for if he didn't tell her. So does bring a new level of stupidity to the character that we haven't seen before.
I don't recall saying that was the deal breaker or game changer for me. Movie just didn't work for me. The trilogy just hasn't worked for me. I am always willing and able to love more Star Wars, like I did Rogue One and the first season of Rebels and like I do The Mandalorian.
And if it doesn't work I can only tell you what I believe the reasons are that it didn't work for me. But you attacking ares for being salty or making up reasos why I didn't give it a chance isn't going to change that.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah and then you contradict that open mindedness and acceptance of film being objective by arrogantly claiming if I don't agree with you I am "nuts".
No, it's not a contradiction. It's me thinking your opinion sucks. I recognize that you're entitled to your opinion. I just think it's wrong.
I simply pointed out you're calling me nuts specifically, but by default you're actually accusing a lot of people of being "nuts". So not sure which part of that you're arguing about now.
The fact that a lot of people have what I consider to be a shit opinion doesn't make that opinion less shit. 40% of a country whose population is upwards of 300 million thinks Donald Trump is a great President. I think they're all crazy, too. Numbers don't add legitimacy to an opinion, they just measure an opinion's popularity.
And they also have some great dialogue
Yep, the Darth Plagueis opera scene. 5 minutes out of a collective 7+ hour trilogy.
and some great performances.
Yep, Ian McDiarmid and Ewan McGregor. Two great performances out of an ensemble cast of mediocre performances.
But there's a lot more to a good/great film than just the things you've mentioned. The mythos and storytelling of Lucas's Star Wars (Episodes 1-6) is unparalleled in fantasy film making. In my opinion of course.
The storytelling is conveyed through the script. The premise and world building of the prequel era are great and have been the basis for many great stories in the hands of superior writers.
What Lucas actually gave us in TPM, AOTC, and ROTS is not good. The fact that other people have taken those ideas and done great things with them doesn't make the prequels good movies. It makes them fodder for other great stories.
I mean I guess this would make sense for you to bring up if I used to shit on the prequels, but now say they're great because of the sequels. However I don't recall any of that happening.
Fair enough.
Episodes 1-6, are one epic saga IMO. The most epic fantasy saga we have ever gotten on film. So yes that is the standard for me.
You misspelled the Lord of the Rings.
The Star Wars film saga, 1-6, is comprised of one great movie (ESB), one good one (ANH), one decent one (ROTJ), and three that run the gamut from dogshit to mediocre. It is the cornerstone of a multimedia franchise that has produced some entertaining works in a sea of mediocrity.
I mean epic isn't easy to repeat. But I'd settle for just good quality stuff that expands the universe. Like a Rogue One or like The Mandalorian.
Rogue One was OK and the Mandalorian is also OK. I'm fine with them too.
His mistake with Luke wasn't quite on the same level though. He triggered Luke in lashing out with anger. With Rey he casually told him his plan, which she would have completely fallen for if he didn't tell her. So does bring a new level of stupidity to the character that we haven't seen before.
Luke would've probably continued to attack Vader had the Emperor not snapped him out of it twice by telegraphing his plot.
First when Luke snaps and kicks Vader down the steps, whereupon the Emperor cackles and validates the move, causing Luke to stop and turn off his lightsaber. Then again when he has Vader at his mercy and the Emperor does the same goddamn thing.
Him telegraphing his plot to Rey and then trying to blackmail her into cooperating by pointing out it's the only way she can call the Sith fleet off from killing her friends isn't a brilliant chess move and it's certainly beneath Palpatine of the prequels.
But it's also textbook Return of the Jedi Palpatine. Pretending like it's some sort of egregious betrayal of who the character was when we last saw him is baseless. It's the same animal.
I don't recall saying that was the deal breaker or game changer for me. Movie just didn't work for me. The trilogy just hasn't worked for me. I am always willing and able to love more Star Wars, like I did Rogue One and the first season of Rebels and like I do The Mandalorian.And if it doesn't work I can only tell you what I believe the reasons are that it didn't work for me. But you attacking ares for being salty or making up reasos why I didn't give it a chance isn't going to change that.
Yup, again: you're entitled to your opinion. You're free to hate the movie. I certainly don't think it's a masterpiece or an excellent piece of work. It fails to redeem the sequel trilogy writ large and is even on its own replete with questionable storytelling decisions.
But I think it was the most entertaining of the three sequels and some of your criticisms, namely with respect to the Emperor, are entirely without basis.
I really liked TFA and TLJ. I certainly am more eager to re-watch TFA than ANH, for example. (It's tough to argue that the new ones are "better" films but they are more fun to watch imo.)
A lot of the still-active KMC posters seem to be pretty worked up that women were given speaking roles in these movies, though.
Gideon, I think there's a post floating around where I joked about the twist in TRoS:
Spoiler:
Bane used essence transfer on Zannah and then used essence transfer on every subsequent apprentice, so there's only every been 1 "rule of two" sith: Bane. Bane therefore gets credit for all of Sheev's feats.
Originally posted by Zamp
I really liked TFA and TLJ. I certainly am more eager to re-watch TFA than ANH, for example. (It's tough to argue that the new ones are "better" films but they are more fun to watch imo.)A lot of the still-active KMC posters seem to be pretty worked up that women were given speaking roles in these movies, though.
Yeah, thus the difficulty of gauging a film's quality. Fundamentally, the goal of every movie is to entertain an audience. So if a film is expertly crafted but boring as hell, hasn't it missed the point?
Consider two 2007 movies: Transformers and There Will Be Blood. I don't think anybody here would favorably compare Shia LeBeouf and Michael Bay to Daniel Day Lewis and Paul Thomas Anderson as actors and directors respectively.
And yet I'd sooner watch Transformers than There Will Be Blood, which was a goddamn chore to get through. The only interesting scene was the one at the end where Daniel Day Lewis channels the great sage Kelis and talks about milkshakes.
So it's a bizarre scenario where you intellectually and inexplicably distinguish a film's artistic quality from entertainment value. It's all quite strange.
Gideon, I think there's a post floating around where I joked about the twist in TRoS:Spoiler:
Bane used essence transfer on Zannah and then used essence transfer on every subsequent apprentice, so there's only every been 1 "rule of two" sith: Bane. Bane therefore gets credit for all of Sheev's feats.
Nah, the problem is
Spoiler:
Sheev distinguishes himself from the Sith spirits within him.
It's not one entity as you once famously tried to peddle, Star Wars snake oil salesman that you are.
The biggest twist to come out of TROS isn't so much the fact that Sheev is more powerful than the ancient Sith, but he's now clearly more powerful than all of them combined. sly
Originally posted by The_TempestThe franchise in a nutshell. I'm a smidge bitter that I dedicated as much energy as I have over the years to a corporate assembly line. A solid decade+ of Star Wars devotion has taught me not to take fiction designed for profit so seriously, or to devote so much of my precious time and attention to a vast, multi billion dollar faceless entity in the name of "fandom".
I've made my peace with the fact that Star Wars is a fun franchise, but one that produces very little by way of genuinely good material.The last "great" movie this franchise produced was in 1980.
EDIT: Always fun to see a new movie bring the older members back for a few days though.
Darth Thor, give these two wiki articles a read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
Also, some of the surprisingly positive reactions almost make me want to see it just to see if it might be a fun watch.
Also, the prequels are bad movies. Revenge of the Sith is the most fun film in the franchise and the easiest to watch though. 👆