The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Andrew Ryan3,287 pages
Usually arguments like those tend to draw on recent development in physics, especially those dealing with quantum mechanics. The most basic argument is that Determinsim's foundation rests in Newtonian physics, ergo it is no longer an accurate stance.

Most lose sight of the fact that Determinism is not solely based on Newtonian physics, but on the idea that absolute principles exist which guide all natural events. This does not preclude the idea of "apparent randomness" or causation on a scale too small or remote to be directly observed. Part of the soundness of Determinism is that it has roots in basic science and common sense; all explanations in science rely on causation which in turn implies Determinism. Even Hume admitted that causation cannot be directly observed on a macroscopic level but only implied through actions between entities, yet it seemed to be the most logical explanation based on the available evidence.

Quantum particles behave in ways which are inconsistent with objects more easily observed by the human eye, yet their seemingly erratic behavior does not preclude causation. It merely challenges our current understanding of it. Even Bell was not certain that Determinism had been avoided because of his understanding of quantum physics, being unable to completely rule out the loophole of superdeterminism.

Hmm, so let's say, in the case of parallel timelines, could quantum indeterminancy be used as a justification for variations between the different timelines? Like say, if events don't necessarily occur in a causal manner but sometimes in a random manner, than if events were to start from point zero and be repeated in every single parallel timeline, then given the random nature of it they don't necessarily have to proceed into the same set of events in each timeline, accounting for variations?

So in other words randomness begets randomness?

The idea behind quantum indeterminancy as I understand it is that causation at quantum level simply does not exist and that this in turn has an impact on macroscopic events. The problem with this is that it implies a certain absolute knowledge of quantum events, which is improbable. It is highly unlikely that we already possess the range of knowledge and capability to observe all that determines things at a quantum level. Or to put that another way, saying that an apparent lack of the quantum physics equivalent of a pool stick to a cueball doesn't preclude the former's existence.

Because the limit of human perception is just that - limited, it's difficult to show true lack of causation when it appears to be everywhere in life, and is the very foundation of how we explain things as well. No one would ever argue that because bacteria was unable to be detected in the early centuries, it did not exist as a causal factor in sickness and disease nor would anyone argue that data is not existant on a hard drive simply because no computer is present to read it.

The bottom line is that quantum indeterminancy is a theory based on an apparent lack of evidence as opposed to a sound showing of determinist failing. It's no better than pure atheism's answer to religion.

is there a word that can not somehow apply to science by adding "ism" as a suffix to it?

Racism?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
is there a word that can not somehow apply to science by adding "ism" as a suffix to it?
orgasm
bush

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
is there a word that can not somehow apply to science by adding "ism" as a suffix to it?
Buddhism. Marxism. Sexism. Schadenfreudism.

Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
So in other words randomness begets randomness?

Excuse you? What I was saying was that working under the idea that a set of prior occurences can randomly, rather than causally, generate into a set of current and future occurences, then if that same set of prior occurences were to repeat (as would be the case in alternate timelines) then they wouldn't necessarily generate into the same set of current and future occurences, accounting for variations in the state of alternate timelines.

The idea behind quantum indeterminancy as I understand it is that causation at quantum level simply does not exist and that this in turn has an impact on macroscopic events. The problem with this is that it implies a certain absolute knowledge of quantum events, which is improbable. It is highly unlikely that we already possess the range of knowledge and capability to observe all that determines things at a quantum level. Or to put that another way, saying that an apparent lack of the quantum physics equivalent of a pool stick to a cueball doesn't preclude the former's existence.

Because the limit of human perception is just that - limited, it's difficult to show true lack of causation when it appears to be everywhere in life, and is the very foundation of how we explain things as well. No one would ever argue that because bacteria was unable to be detected in the early centuries, it did not exist as a causal factor in sickness and disease nor would anyone argue that data is not existant on a hard drive simply because no computer is present to read it.

The bottom line is that quantum indeterminancy is a theory based on an apparent lack of evidence as opposed to a sound showing of determinist failing. It's no better than pure atheism's answer to religion.

I'm sure that's all quite correct; I personally find the idea that events can occur truly randomly, on any scale, an absurd idea.

That being said I'm currently writing a novel where variations do exist between different timelines (and naturally so) so I was wondering what exactly the most established school of thought that could explain such a state of affairs would be.

i love that word now... orgasmism... just rolls off the tongue...

What the fawk. Neb, are you seriously arguing with yourself now?

DS, screw you too.

Marvel,

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
red nemesis, you are now this guy

Nice.

whom is neb?

Spoiler:
and yes

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
What the fawk. Neb, are you seriously arguing with yourself now?

DS, screw you too.

Marvel,

Nice.

Andrew Ryan is not Neb.

Primer = 🤨

On my second viewing and I still have no idea what the hell's going on.

Nebaris is a topic of mockery and the infernal embodiment of the eternally indomitable human spirit of perseverance.

By "perseverance," I mean "self-pissing stupidity," of course..

Originally posted by Lavos
Excuse you? What I was saying was that working under the idea that a set of prior occurences can randomly, rather than causally, generate into a set of current and future occurences, then if that same set of prior occurences were to repeat (as would be the case in alternate timelines) then they wouldn't necessarily generate into the same set of current and future occurences, accounting for variations in the state of alternate timelines.

So in other words, randomness begets randomness.

If you start counting towards a million in increments of X times Y and you roll dice to start at Z, it is very realistic that few if any sequences will be similar. Why you thought it was important enough to "get feedback" on I'm not entirely sure, I just felt it was important that you realize quantum indeterminacy is not entirely sound.

Originally posted by Lavos

I'm sure that's all quite correct; I personally find the idea that events can occur truly randomly, on any scale, an absurd idea.

That being said I'm currently writing a novel where variations do exist between different timelines (and naturally so) so I was wondering what exactly the most established school of thought that could explain such a state of affairs would be.

Would this novel be entitled "Sliders"?

I just felt it was important that you realize quantum indeterminacy is not entirely sound.

Neb, it isn't likely that you're going to disprove any facet of Quantum Mechanics with rudimentary armchair statistics. It just isn't going to happen.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Neb, it isn't likely that you're going to disprove any facet of Quantum Mechanics with rudimentary armchair statistics. It just isn't going to happen.

And I repeat, he is not Neb.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Neb, it isn't likely that you're going to disprove any facet of Quantum Mechanics with rudimentary armchair statistics. It just isn't going to happen.

1. I'm not "Neb". You can call me Ryan if you need to call me anything.

2. Disproving is not my intention. I question the soundness of a theory which, as I understand it, implies that lack of evidence means there is no evidence as opposed to saying the evidence is seemingly not within our limited scope.

While I could attempt to sound intelligent by using overly big words and speaking in circles, the bottom line is that not all facets of quantum physics are absolute simply because they baffle scientists and thinkers. Because the concern relates to an established theory of Determinism (which from where I'm standing has a foundation in scientific theory which is comprised of scientific laws which use causation!) an apparent lack of linear causation at the quantum level does not preclude its existence.

This is pretty basic, don't you agree?

Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
1. I'm not "Neb". You can call me Ryan if you need to call me anything.

Sure thing Ryan.

2. Disproving is not my intention. I question the soundness of a theory which, as I understand it, implies that lack of evidence means there is no evidence as opposed to saying the evidence is seemingly not within our limited scope.

See, regardless of whether or not you chose to respect evidenciary support (kudos, by the way, for doing so) you are criticizing a theory on shaky grounds at best. This is like attacking a bulldozer with a feather.

As far as your specific contention (about the claim that "lack of evidence means there is no evidence"😉 goes, I can't comment until you elaborate. Are you complaining about the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle? I assure you that has mountains of evidence supporting it.


While I could attempt to sound intelligent by using overly big words and speaking in circles, the bottom line is that not all facets of quantum physics are absolute simply because they baffle scientists and thinkers.

This requires substantiation. Could you give an example of something about QM that is in doubt because it "baffles" scientists? This sounds like you're believing the buzz that overemphasizes how "weird" QM is, to the point of making it into some sort of mystical tradition when the truth is that it is a very complex but naturalistic idea. There is nothing magical in QM, except insofar as human intuition is poorly optimized for the quantum scale. I don't know if you've read any Dawkins, but he describes human awareness as taking place in "middle world."

Middle world is a place where objects are very large relative to the size of an atom and move very slowly relative to the speed of light. Objects in this universe are solid. (That is an evolutionary advantage; proto-humans that expected to get away from a cheetah by running through a rock wouldn't survive very well, no matter (pun very much intended) how much space there is between particles in that boulder.) Simply put, our brains are hardwired to understand daily life. Not so for the sub-nucleic scale.

Because the concern relates to an established theory of Determinism (which from where I'm standing has a foundation in scientific theory which is comprised of scientific laws which use causation!) an apparent lack of linear causation at the quantum level does not preclude its existence.

You'll have to point me toward where it was, exactly, that Determinism became "established." (Burden of proof and whatnot.)

Then you'll have to explain in more detail why it is that you feel that QM violates this system you feel is "established."

Having set the groundwork, your next step will be to convince me why it is that the data and evidence of the sundry experiments regarding QM should be discounted. It takes a pretty big stretch to get from "the data doesn't match the theory" to "the data is wrong."

Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
1. I'm not "Neb". You can call me Ryan if you need to call me anything.

2. Disproving is not my intention. I question the soundness of a theory which, as I understand it, implies that lack of evidence means there is no evidence as opposed to saying the evidence is seemingly not within our limited scope.

While I could attempt to sound intelligent by using overly big words and speaking in circles, the bottom line is that not all facets of quantum physics are absolute simply because they baffle scientists and thinkers. Because the concern relates to an established theory of Determinism (which from where I'm standing has a foundation in scientific theory which is comprised of scientific laws which use causation!) an apparent lack of linear causation at the quantum level does not preclude its existence.

This is pretty basic, don't you agree?

This is, sorry to say that, pretty much nonsens.

Determinism states that all future events a determined by present condition and have to occur because said conditions exist. That theory rules out any kind of "free will", because actions of human beings would, in logic of the theory, also be caused by certain conditions. Obviously nobody follows that theory in a strict fashion, provided that we still put legal offenders into jail instead of blaming a serial killers bad childhood for his actions and leave him be.

Likewise the opposite of determinism (indeterminism) also has its foundament in science. Thermodynamics feature a lot of probabilistic laws. The point with quantum mechanics is, that they can only make probabilistic statements about future events.

From there, some people conclude that reality is an indetermined system, while others have attempted to explain that fact with different theories (e.g. many parallel existing realities, each for one possible choice made / not made - leading to an infinite amount of realities existing parallel to eachother).

However. I don't see any relevance to everyday life here, since nobody would follow a theory of determinism in a strict fashion (reasons mentioned above). Even the most persistant fatalist will make a choice somewhere. Hence even if you assume something different, you will still live "as if" reality would work according to the principles of indeterminism...

Edit:
Just to make it clear. Even strict followers of determinism don't question quantum mechanics, they simply explain the results different than other people do. This is more a philosophical question than anything else. It doesn't touch the quantum mechanics or the results their use generates - it's a matter of interpretation.

Determinism states that all future events a determined by present condition and have to occur because said conditions exist. That theory rules out any kind of "free will", because actions of human beings would, in logic of the theory, also be caused by certain conditions. Obviously nobody follows that theory in a strict fashion, provided that we still put legal offenders into jail instead of blaming a serial killers bad childhood for his actions and leave him be.

I have a question if you're going to follow this logic. Let's say that G-d exists (for argument's sake and I'm Jewish). G-d knows everything you're going to do and every choice you're going to make, so does that introduce determinism? Or the fact that G-d knowing what choice you're going to make has no bearing on you having the free will to make that choice?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I have a question if you're going to follow this logic. Let's say that G-d exists (for argument's sake and I'm Jewish). G-d knows everything you're going to do and every choice you're going to make, so does that introduce determinism? Or the fact that G-d knowing what choice you're going to make has no bearing on you having the free will to make that choice?

God knowing how everything is going to be play out would indicate that even though Free Will is claimed, that at the very least, your actions are already known by God. This means that it is impossible to deviate since if God knows that it will happen, then ergo it must happen.