The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

RN: So what was the point of the photo? Was that not DE simply restating the argument as well? For that matter, this hasn't been an actual debate. DS and I are on one side of a matter, and apparently yourself, Autokrat and DE are on the other. We have reached a point where we can't find common ground, and for the last few pages have simply been restating a point at each other. : )

Autokrat:
Stating one theologian hardly brings the debate to an end. If you didn't know, the church is split between people who believe in pre-destination, and people who do not. You simply quoted one side of the issue.

God knowing something is simply not God DECIDING how it will be. He is simply aware of what we will decide. Its not the same thing as making it so at all.

how come every discussion with you ends with agreeing to disagree 😐

Because people don't change Marvel. They never do. I don't try to change people, because that just makes them more fully entrenched in their own beliefs. The only issue I won't agree to disagree on is abortion. Its the only one I know of that I can't even begin to fathom what the other side is thinking.

I'm not done with this one though. I'm willing to keep batting it around, but if you haven't noticed, we have made no progress away from the : God knowing decides or doesn't decide what you will do debate--for several pages.

Wait, this was a debate? I was just pointing out that the 'choice' you and DS were going on about were really just a long line of 'choices' that lead directly to each other and that although you think you're making it freely you're realy just doing what you always would have done anyway becuase thats the way God set up the game.

You didn't get that from my picture? 🙁

Edit: Didn't Lightsnake change the entire sub-forum?

No, if you read earlier, i said this isn't a real debate.

Where did LS go? Did he die?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
how come every discussion with you ends with agreeing to disagree 😐

And because that is what adults do when they understand the other person's position, but still don't agree. What should we keep doing, in your opinion? Continue to restate what we have already said?

Originally posted by truejedi
The only issue I won't agree to disagree on is abortion. Its the only one I know of that I can't even begin to fathom what the other side is thinking.

This is an example of how different you and I think. I can't fathom what goes in the heads of people that oppose abortion. Unless they have some religious reason.

Originally posted by truejedi
And because that is what adults do when they understand the other person's position, but still don't agree. What should we keep doing, in your opinion? Continue to restate what we have already said?

you addressed my post twice >.>

im not sure you exactly understand what their point is TBH

I think I do, TBH. Ibelieve they are making the statement that since God KNOWS exactly how things are going to happen, and since he set those events in motion, that we, as mere pawns in his universal game, have no actual say over what we do, since its already been determined (determined because God knows what it is that we are going to do.)

However, they don't understand that God only knows what it is that we CHOOSE to do. He's not determining the future, he is merely aware of it.

Ryan, you might like this:
Link

(I.e: There's no way you can model a 747 quark-by-quark, so you've got to use a multi-level map with explicit cognitive representations of wings, airflow, and so on. This doesn't mean there's a multi-level territory. The true laws of physics, to the best of our knowledge, are only over elementary particle fields.)

This is the model (helpfully half-assed by me) that best illustrates the idea of free will in my mind. There are any number of choices, all of which are potential paths that I can take.

Now lets see what happens when there is divine knowledge involved:

That knowledge indicates that I am going to take this path. If I am at the very beginning of that line, or at the very end, there was only one path open: The path that god already knew that I'd take. If I am at the beginning then there is no possibility that I'll veer left at that first fork. Thus: no free will.

Originally posted by truejedi
I think I do, TBH. Ibelieve they are making the statement that since God KNOWS exactly how things are going to happen, and since he set those events in motion, that we, as mere pawns in his universal game, have no actual say over what we do, since its already been determined (determined because God knows what it is that we are going to do.)

However, they don't understand that God only knows what it is that we CHOOSE to do. He's not determining the future, he is merely aware of it.

1. God is the creator of everything. (G > E)
2. Everything, is defined as all: events, material and spiritual objects and/or entities and time. (E > O)
3. God created all: events, material and spiritual objects and/or entities and time. (G > O)
4. Because God created all: events, material and spiritual objects and/or entities and time. God predetermined every event the moment he specified the parameters of the universe. (G > O) > D
5. Because God predetermined every event the moment he specified the parameters of the universe, he is directly responsible for everything that happens. (D > R)
6. Because God created all: events, material and spiritual objects and/or entities and time. God is directly responsible for everything that happens. (G > O) > R
7. Because God is directly responsible for everything that happens, Free Will does not exist. (R > ~F)

OR

1. G > E
2. E > O
3. G > O/ 1,2 HS
4. (G > O) > D
5. D > R
6. (G > O) > R/ 4,5 HS
7. R > ~F / Ergo: R > ~F

Far more intelligent people than you (and I) gave tired to reconcile Free Will with an all-knowing God and none of their arguments convinced me so start making some sense or stopping acting like I don't understand what you are talking about, because I do. You have no argument, all you have is the same broken record garbage that you mistakingly call an argument. If this was a philosophy 101 class the Professor would be gently explaining to you how I have provided the vastly superior argument while the rest of the class would be trying not to laugh at how stupid you would sound.

Oh and TJ

If you didn't know, the church is split between people who believe in pre-destination, and people who do not. You simply quoted one side of the issue.

I think I might have already mentioned this but I have taken two quarters of Religious Studies (not counting my Philosophy of Religion courses) so would you please stop lecturing me on shit that I already know about (probably better than you.)

The very fact that even theists cannot make up their mind about this just shows how difficult an issue it is to reconcile. I imagine that most of the people that reject it either spout one of the actual arguments by respected apologists (your argument has no relation to any of the arguments most apologists use and thats probably why it sucks balls) or people that use the word faith whenever they don't know how to defend their position, but then only the weakest of ideas stand on faith alone.

1. G > E
2. E > O
3. G > O/ 1,2 HS
4. (G > O) > D
5. D > R
6. (G > O) > R/ 4,5 HS
7. R > ~F / Ergo: R > ~F

I like the juxtaposition here.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

I like the juxtaposition here.

The argument is embarrassingly simple (nothing more than one HS after another) compared to the nonsense proofs (sometimes around 55 lines!) I had to do in Propositional Calculus.

Hmm, I could have done better if I had defined F. Ask a compatibilist what Free Will is and he will say something completely different from the Libertarian or the Determinist.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Ryan, you might like this:
Link

A very interesting blog. Amazing where you can find gems like this. Thank you.

truejedi:

I think I do, TBH. Ibelieve they are making the statement that since God KNOWS exactly how things are going to happen, and since he set those events in motion, that we, as mere pawns in his universal game, have no actual say over what we do, since its already been determined (determined because God knows what it is that we are going to do.)

However, they don't understand that God only knows what it is that we CHOOSE to do. He's not determining the future, he is merely aware of it.

Are you asserting that God is not the creator of all things in nature? This is different from say, an engineer predicting the usage of his car design. No, God as the creator was supposed to create all natural laws, all "chance", all things. He is also timeless because he creates the illusion of time with his natural laws and how his creations interact. Hence, he does not have to merely "be aware" of all events, he has a hand in their creation!

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
DS, the question of us knowing is irrelevant. To us it seems like we have free will. This is true both in determinism and its alternatives. No one is disputing the sensation of making choices. The question is about if those choices are free or if they are instead the inexorable result of the workings of the universe.

That question is one that is much harder to answer. For our purposes, lets assume a divine being that is omniscient. Any other qualities are periphery for the moment. This god has access to knowledge about the future that is absolute. The future is immutable and unchanging. In effect, it has already happened. I will be eating peanut butter for lunch tomorrow. God knows it. I could no more choose Turkey than an ant could do my homework. This situation arises because the state of my lunch tomorrow is already known. It may not be known to me (giving rise to the impression of making a decision) but it is known to someone.

Way to ignore autokrat.

The point remains: I have no free will because there is no way for me to make any other choice than the one I am going to make.

Now respond to the competent poster instead of me.

Originally posted by Autokrat
This is an example of how different you and I think. I can't fathom what goes in the heads of people that oppose abortion. Unless they have some religious reason.

And this in my mind is an example of ignorance, the fact that you would blatantly look at an issue in black and white. I'm pro choice, anti most abortions. Pro lifers are nutcases in my opinion. How could you not oppose abortion if a mother's life is in danger? Both sides make me shake my head and realize how stupid people really are..

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Way to ignore autokrat.

The point remains: I have no free will because there is no way for me to make any other choice than the one I am going to make.

Now respond to the competent poster instead of me.

This is where we are going to have to disagree. You believe we don't have free will because everything is preordained, if there is a higher power. I believe the fact that everything is preordained has little to do with free will because as far as we humans know, we have choices.

And I read his post. Great, I'm sure the theologian is a smart man. I'll get some material from the Torah to contradict him and we'll just continue playing a game of "whose dick is better".

I think it depends on how you define choice. If you define choice as the simple act of thinking through the different options at your disposal and arriving at a decision that best fits your particular needs, then the sensation of choice is within the very definition, and is not precluded by your choices ultimately being predetermined before you make them, as the factor of being completely and ultimately in control of what decision you'll make is not contained within the definition.