The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

What I want to say is that God might exist, but using logic and reason we have no reason to think so.

Since some people do think so, they must be using something other than logic and reason.

If he does exist, then the methods of logic and reason would apply to things that he does in the universe. Things that are not bounded by logic and reason (for instance, an afterlife) would not be subject to description by reason. Logic would still apply, because of the nature of the universe. (Also, most Xtians I've met have used the argument that God cannot do things that are logically impossible.

The only way that I've seen religion be even remotely respectable is when it acknowledges that it is not based on reason.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Which I've been advocating all along, telling you guys that your arguments are wrong. And if this is your assertion, why would you use logic and reason to describe god in the first place?

If God can't do things that are logically(from our perspective) impossible, then he's not God. That's a contradiction right there. As to applying logic and reasoning in the universe, how can you? You don't know what he does because you can't describe him/her, nor anything that he does. You'd essentially be using "logic and reason" to speculate.

Which means you haven't read the last 3 pages because I've [b]explicitly stated this to be the case. I have ALSO stated that if you DO believe he exists, then your (the people I'm arguing with) arguments are illogical.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Well, many theists (mostly Christians) try to do so. Basically, any time someone tells me that the Deity is both Omniscient and Omnipotent by definition, then they've given me an axiom (starting place) to apply logic. Then we run into the contradictions that are the reason that some rationalists not believe in god (there are also other reasons).

[/b]

When you define God this way there's really nothing more to say. You've put it beyond the realm of discussion. (Which I think is really a good thing. If these conversations were the kind of things that happened IRL then I'd take up drinking.)

I have read the last few pages, which is why I've said that I agree with you. Basically, it is impossible to talk intelligently about your concept of God because you've defined it as undefined. It would be like talking about garwhoops. Pointless. [/B]

This is the Jewish perspective. I would think that this was the correct perspective as well. I also think it's hard to even hypothetically claim that an infinite being exists, and then debate using human logic and reason, as I've stated forever.

But I AM advocating that religion isn't based on anything tangible or rational because how could it be? Only the Jews who were on Mount Sinai to receive the Torah could make that claim.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

If God can't do things that are logically(from our perspective) impossible, then he's not God.

Out of curiosity, can you name a few examples?

Originally posted by Shoes
Out of curiosity, can you name a few examples?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you trying to bait me into giving some kind of explanation regarding God so I contradict myself?

Also, I find something absolutely hilarious regarding Veneficus' and A.R's posts. They first posit that the idea of a higher being and/or religion is illogical, then proceed to try to argue what they perceive to be an illogical concept, logically. Then they follow up this beauty by trying to criticize a religious person's definition of God, completely oblivious to the fact that as atheists, they have very little credibility in describing God as compared to a religious person, who spends as much time on the God issue as one of these guys spend on philosophy. The arrogance, utter ignorance, and a complete lack of self awareness reaffirms my broad generalization of philosophy majors, even though I shouldn't be doing something like that.

http://blogs.reuters.com/fundshub/2010/04/14/markets-could-be-derailed-again-warns-soros/

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you trying to bait me into giving some kind of explanation regarding God so I contradict myself?

Nothing of the sort. Just wanted to see what you deem impossible. Something that cannot be accomplished? I'm sure that God is capable of manipulating his universe to his needs. Something that we can't understand? Something that is logically contradictory?

The main problem with this, is that you're still using logic and reason to disprove God. He's beyond comprehension IMO. Logically trying to prove god doesn't exist is impossible, because God isn't necessarily logical. This doesn't mean he doesn't exist, but simply that he can't be perceived rationally. The problem with that is, for humans, logic and rationality are what we rely on when dealing with the unknown/supernatural. Should the deity in question be impervious to logical probing, it doesn't disprove it.

tl;dr: no shit markets will crash again.

Shoes, that pretty much sums up my argument. The problem with mental masturbaters is that their arrogance goes hand in hand with their insecurity and they feel they can argue everything rationally. And I've repositioned my shorts in light of the fed and Obama administration adding a spin to every economic problem we have.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yet the epic fail continues when you try and apply logic and reason to a faith based system and an all knowing, all powerful being.

So we aren't allowed to question people who decide it would be a good idea to fly an airplane into a skyscraper, if their actions are performed due to a faith based system? 🙄

It's quite the paradox to state that one shouldn't attempt to judge faith based systems using the method of logical reasoning. Where is the point in a faith based system or faith itself, when there isn't any rational thought involved? Hell. Where is the point in worshipping an entity that, according to you, due to its very nature, can't be fit into a coherent system - such as an religion?

As it appears, you worship an omnipotent chaotic entity and - rather than acting according to what is assumed to be his own words, you just hope that he won't destroy you, because he is just in the mood to do so.

If you can't follow me here, I might explain that to you:

Funny how you weren't fully aware of all the definitions of "omnipotent", and you had to back peddle when I gave you one that contradicted your "argument".

Funny, how you aren't aware of the one and only definition of "omnipotent". It does mean that an entity has power without any limitations. This can't be true, because in order to make it true, said entity has to overpower itself, which would also prove that it is not omnipotent.

All other "definitions" assume a limited omnipotence which is - for heavens sake - an oxymoron, given that we're speaking about "limited unlimited power". Doesn't make sense.

But let us follow your premise that God is truely omnipotent. In order to archive that statement, he has to be able to ignore his own rules and be willing to do so. Which means that such an entity would be unpredictable, chaotic and therefore couldn't serve as basis of any kind of "system".

This is not contradictory. Hence, negative theology. I know God is not finite. Aside from knowing that God is everywhere always or rather, never in one place at any time, and that he knows the past and the present, we can understand nothing else about God. That includes his morals, actions, decisions, as defined by humanity.

Wow. What kind of "faith" is that? I remember to have a book at home called the "Bible". If I'm correct, the Jewish equivalent (featuring a lot of the stuff present in the Bible) is the Torah. I clearly remember that God has declared some rules to live by and also limited his own powers himself on several occassions. He granted humans free will, which means he can't "control" them, unless he wants to violate his own rules. He promissed that there won't be a second deluvian (or other extinction level event). All of this is effectively limiting his own power.

So exercising his power in a truely "omnipotent" sense, would at the same time mean to violate his very own rules. If God violates his own rules, what would a belief be worth that is based upon rules God has given, provided he himself doesn't feel bound by them? Or in short: Exercise of omnipotent abilities would take the status away from God - he would become a serious threat or complete and utter chaos.

Then the other question I have: If God is so much beyond human comprehension, how are you able to equip him with all the attributes you gave him above? You know - at least I hope so - that this could all be pretty much wrong, given your very own definition...?

Originally posted by Borbarad
So we aren't allowed to question people who decide it would be a good idea to fly an airplane into a skyscraper, if their actions are performed due to a faith based system? 🙄

It's quite the paradox to state that one shouldn't attempt to judge faith based systems using the method of logical reasoning. Where is the point in a faith based system or faith itself, when there isn't any rational thought involved? Hell. Where is the point in worshipping an entity that, according to you, due to its very nature, can't be fit into a coherent system - such as an religion?

As it appears, you worship an omnipotent chaotic entity and - rather than acting according to what is assumed to be his own words, you just hope that he won't destroy you, because he is just in the mood to do so.

Funny, how you aren't aware of the one and only definition of "omnipotent". It does mean that an entity has power without any limitations. This can't be true, because in order to make it true, said entity has to overpower itself, which would also prove that it is not omnipotent.

All other "definitions" assume a limited omnipotence which is - for heavens sake - an oxymoron, given that we're speaking about "limited unlimited power". Doesn't make sense.

But let us follow your premise that God is truely omnipotent. In order to archive that statement, he has to be able to ignore his own rules and be willing to do so. Which means that such an entity would be unpredictable, chaotic and therefore couldn't serve as basis of any kind of "system".

Wow. What kind of "faith" is that? I remember to have a book at home called the "Bible". If I'm correct, the Jewish equivalent (featuring a lot of the stuff present in the Bible) is the Torah. I clearly remember that God has declared some rules to live by and also limited his own powers himself on several occassions. He granted humans free will, which means he can't "control" them, unless he wants to violate his own rules. He promissed that there won't be a second deluvian (or other extinction level event). All of this is effectively limiting his own power.

So exercising his power in a truely "omnipotent" sense, would at the same time mean to violate his very own rules. If God violates his own rules, what would a belief be worth that is based upon rules God has given, provided he himself doesn't feel bound by them? Or in short: Exercise of omnipotent abilities would take the status away from God - he would become a serious threat or complete and utter chaos.

Then the other question I have: If God is so much beyond human comprehension, how are you able to equip him with all the attributes you gave him above? You know - at least I hope so - that this could all be pretty much wrong, given your very own definition...? [/B]

And what attributes is that? The only truething we can understand about God is that he is beyond our understanding.

I just want to clarify two points for you Nai, because I feel that I haven't been perfectly clear on them and you might call me out.

1. In regards to saying that we know we can't understand God. That statement holds true for someone without Bible/Torah knowledge. In religious Judaism, the belief is that God either wrote the Torah, or the Torah contains the words of God, as opposed to reform Judaism which believes that Man wrote the Torah. In the Torah, we know many of the things God does and why, because he explains it to us. There is ALSO the explanation that we will NOT understand MOST of the things that God does or will do. I didn't think I needed to make this clear because you apparently have some biblical knowledge, but I will to avoid any pitfalls in my argument.

2. In regards to the extinction level event, God says that he will not do it again with a FLOOD. That is as far as his explanation goes. The coming of the Messiah is in itself, somewhat of an E.L.E.

Nephthys uses Confusion!!!

Its Super effective! Debate was defeated!

Truthfully, nothing can stand up to the Ultimate Power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nephthys uses Confusion!!!

Its Super effective! Debate was defeated!

Truthfully, nothing can stand up to the Ultimate Power.

Your name is Darth Exodus. you can never change that. Ever.

Obviously my confusion has warped your poor mind. 🙁

We've going at this the wrong way. We've been attacking/defending religion over the nature of logic. I say we crack open the good book and see what's inside so we can really take a look at the codes God laid down to us that we must follow or otherwise be destroyed.

Behold the codes of God.

Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

And for the NT junkies in the crowd...

Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22
Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, work heartily...

However, this is not all!

Leviticus Chapter 1
The Lord called to Moses and spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting. He said, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any of you brings an offering to the Lord , bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.
"If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he is to offer a male without defect. He must present it at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting so that it will be acceptable to the Lord . He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him. He is to slaughter the young bull before the Lord , and then Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and sprinkle it against the altar on all sides at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. He is to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces. The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. Then Aaron's sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the burning wood that is on the altar. He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord .

"If the offering is a burnt offering from the flock, from either the sheep or the goats, he is to offer a male without defect. He is to slaughter it at the north side of the altar before the Lord , and Aaron's sons the priests shall sprinkle its blood against the altar on all sides. He is to cut it into pieces, and the priest shall arrange them, including the head and the fat, on the burning wood that is on the altar. He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to bring all of it and burn it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord .

"If the offering to the Lord is a burnt offering of birds, he is to offer a dove or a young pigeon. The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar. He is to remove the crop with its contents and throw it to the east side of the altar, where the ashes are. He shall tear it open by the wings, not severing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is on the fire on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

Burning flesh is an aroma pleasing to the Lord? He couldn't figure out a better way to "forgive" people for sins? Maybe it is just a bunch of primitive desert people doing the same shit that the Greeks and Romans did?

These ones don't apply to DS since he isn't a Christian but for the two billion Christians out there.

Corinthians chapter 14
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 11
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels.

1 Timothy chapter 2
Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.

I'm thinking God was an idiot. He had to know what these verses would do to womens' rights and how it result in mass discrimination and abuse of women. Of course, we cannot use logic and reason to analyze God since he's special and beyond understanding.

And now, for my favorite passage in the entire Bible.

Numbers 31:14-18
Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Making sex slaves of women apparently is God's will.

Moses, the prophet of God orders a mass murder! I'll let use your imaginations on what the "save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." I've heard apologists say that the soldiers wouldn't have abused them, which makes me laugh.

Oh and another special one for DS, because God has superior morality then us goddless jerkpants atheists.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.

Why didn't God say that a rapist should be executed or have his balls chopped off? Now the poor woman is stuck married to the prick that raped her for the rest of her life. Maybe it makes more sense in ancient Hebrew? If that is true than God is discriminating against people that do not read or write ancient Hebrew and thus resulting in the suffering of a great many women because people couldn't understand the true meaning of his book. Maybe God is an idiot? Maybe it was written by primitive and barbaric men that just made shit up?

From Isaiah chapter 13
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.

I understand the Babylonians were the enemies of the Israelites, but damn, God doesn't give two shits about gentiles, the discriminating bastard.

But wait! We have to use negative theology! God is a perfect and all merciful being, therefore he cannot discriminate. Maybe discrimination is part of perfection? Or maybe God just hates children. That I can understand, children drive me nuts.

From Hosea Chapter 13
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

You go God! You rip those pregnant women open, you dash apart those babies on rocks! For the G-Team!

In any case, if these are the codes/actions of God, I want nothing to do with the prick and I don't really understand why anyone else would either, but then I'm a godless jerkpants that uses logic and reason so I must be clueless about how God provides for greater morality then our own ethical intuition does.

Originally posted by Autokrat
We've going at this the wrong way. We've been attacking/defending religion over the nature of logic. I say we crack open the good book and see what's inside so we can really take a look at the codes God laid down to us that we must follow or otherwise be destroyed.

Behold the codes of God.

And for the NT junkies in the crowd...

However, this is not all!

Burning flesh is an aroma pleasing to the Lord? He couldn't figure out a better way to "forgive" people for sins? Maybe it is just a bunch of primitive desert people doing the same shit that the Greeks and Romans did?

These ones don't apply to DS since he isn't a Christian but for the two billion Christians out there.

I'm thinking God was an idiot. He had to know what these verses would do to womens' rights and how it result in mass discrimination and abuse of women. Of course, we cannot use logic and reason to analyze God since he's special and beyond understanding.

And now, for my favorite passage in the entire Bible.

Moses, the prophet of God orders a mass murder! I'll let use your imaginations on what the "save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." I've heard apologists say that the soldiers wouldn't have abused them, which makes me laugh.

Oh and another special one for DS, because God has superior morality then us goddless jerkpants atheists.

Why didn't God say that a rapist should be executed or have his balls chopped off? Now the poor woman is stuck married to the prick that raped her for the rest of her life. Maybe it makes more sense in ancient Hebrew? If that is true than God is discriminating against people that do not read or write ancient Hebrew and thus resulting in the suffering of a great many women because people couldn't understand the true meaning of his book. Maybe God is an idiot? Maybe it was written by primitive and barbaric men that just made shit up?

I understand the Babylonians were the enemies of the Israelites, but damn, God doesn't give two shits about gentiles, the discriminating bastard.

But wait! We have to use negative theology! God is a perfect and all merciful being, therefore he cannot discriminate. Maybe discrimination is part of perfection? Or maybe God just hates children. That I can understand, children drive me nuts.

You go God! You rip those pregnant women open, you dash apart those babies on rocks! For the G-Team!

In any case, if these are the codes/actions of God, I want nothing to do with the prick and I don't really understand why anyone else would either, but then I'm a godless jerkpants that uses logic and reason so I must be clueless about how God provides for greater morality then our own ethical intuition does.

Predictably, Veneficus let his insecurities get the better of him and lost his mind.

But wait! We have to use negative theology! God is a perfect and all merciful being, therefore he cannot discriminate. Maybe discrimination is part of perfection? Or maybe God just hates children. That I can understand, children drive me nuts.

Finally, I know you're not a well rounded individual(that means you know nothing outside your major as you have proven), so I won't embarrass you by claiming you take the bible too literally without ANY kind of study regarding the meaning of all those versus. Please, continue the self pwnage of trying to assess the bible through your own alleged reasoning. Your whole argument is one big facepalm. I would embarrassed to be you at this point.

could you explain why hes wrong? your ad hominems aside, i dont see any actual substance that refutes what hes saying.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
could you explain why hes wrong? your ad hominems aside, i dont see any actual substance that refutes what hes saying.

What part? The part where he says "negative theology", then says God is merciful, pretending to understand the inner workings of God? Or maybe his whole argument based on "I think religion is stupid so I'm going to take every meaning of the bible literally and criticize the higher being using my superb logic skills"? His argument lacks any substance whatsoever. It's an attack on religion itself. I suggest you learn how to be objective, instead of claiming i'm committing an ad hominem, as opposed to him. Furthermore, an ad hominem is an attack on the person rather than his argument. Seeing as how he has no argument to begin with, I've insulted him for being a little, retarded child.

hmmm

as the absolute good, your pathetic mortal feelings and mind can't begin to judge god.

why not?