Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, Gelntract, right.Ok, 1: L0rd is a total liar.
Secondly? Yoda and Dooku slaughter him. Hell, Yoda's power's been directly mentioned to be one of, if not the strongest Jedi of all time (Strongest, fiercest, most implacable foe the Darkness has ever known? In a combat reference?)
Yeah, because that was 100% true about Yoda last time you tried to use it. That's why Yoda is undefeated and solved the Sith problem all by himself- he's the best jedi ever ever ever ever and ever because
Spoiler:
He's a movie character!
There's nothing vague or hyperbole about it: Yoda is directly stated as the strongest enemy the darkness had ever known and his triumphs over the darkness are, to simply, a whole freaking lot. And a movie is a lot different than a comic for show of interpretation. Yoda IS that good. What are Kun's skill credentials, exactly? Athletics, shown skills besides still frames of him frozen in motion where it's impossible to gauge his skill?
It's Lucas's fault a bad author couldn't grasp the concept of how to do Star Wars, when he already screwed up more than a few concepts from it, and threw superpowers around like candy on Halloween when Lucas preferred to do things in a more reserved matter when plenty of EU backs Yoda up here? What makes him 'not that good', when he's obviously meant to be the ultimate and greatest Jedi?
Once more: there's nothing vague about it, it directly says Yoda is what he is and he's on a level most other Jedi never reach. I'd love to see Kun's supposedly masterful skill next to Yoda's, considering Kun's credentials consist of entirely still frames of combat poses and slaughering a guy, who by his own admission in the JA trilogy was there to turn Kun back to the light and was reluctant to fight him
Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's nothing vague or hyperbole about it: Yoda is directly stated as the strongest enemy the darkness had ever known and his triumphs over the darkness are, to simply, a whole freaking lot. And a movie is a lot different than a comic for show of interpretation. Yoda IS that good. What are Kun's skill credentials, exactly? Athletics, shown skills besides still frames of him frozen in motion where it's impossible to gauge his skill?It's Lucas's fault a bad author couldn't grasp the concept of how to do Star Wars, when he already screwed up more than a few concepts from it, and threw superpowers around like candy on Halloween when Lucas preferred to do things in a more reserved matter when plenty of EU backs Yoda up here?
Possibly because he bruns up energy while fighting, but when he does fight, he can last quite a while thanks to the Force.
And you know why Yoda doesn't block dark siders from the Force? Because he can generally turn them back on his own. Why doesn't he prefer to subdue them nonviolently? Simple: Yoda's had mroe than few brushes with darkness and he knows, that oftentimes, killing is very, very necessary and he's got no qualms with it.
he also exterminated a small legion of Bpfasshi Dark Jedi, subdued the darkness on Yavin, CW sourcebook, and Power of the Jedi,
said a few things about him as well, including a mention of him having mastered every offensive and defensive technique the lightside has to offer, we've seen him use Battle Meditation to win supposedly hopeless battles, purge the dark side from areas and even identify wuth a singular death through the force on a level unseen...we have how many duels from Kun exactly? Where did he do anything fancy in said duels? He tied with Ulic and killed a reluctant combatanant who didn't want to hurt his dearest
student.
Bad choreography means a bad fighter? Ok, Mace Windu sucks. And when did Kun do any better? Besides having the power to distort his face in a fight, I mean.
And yes, Maul, when does blocking have to do with detecting?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Possibly because he bruns up energy while fighting, but when he does fight, he can last quite a while thanks to the Force.
Source? Proof?
And you know why Yoda doesn't block dark siders from the Force? Because he can generally turn them back on his own.
Proof? Source? Is this why Vader went evil? because Yoda is amazing with people?
Anakin: I have terrible dreams. People are dying.
Yoda: Let it go.
Anakin: Oh gee thanks, asshat.
Why doesn't he prefer to subdue them nonviolently? Simple: Yoda's had mroe than few brushes with darkness and he knows, that oftentimes, killing is very, very necessary and he's got no qualms with it.
Except that none of the jedi, who all go by YODA'S code (Remember, he IS the foundation of the rules and regulations of the PT era jedi) considered killing Sith or enemies unless it was absolutely neccessary. For example, Mace goes to capture and arrest Sidious, who he knows to be a Sith lord. He doesn't try to kill him until it's apparent he can't be taken into custody. It's a last resort.
Look at Depa Bilaba- she had fallen to the darkside and was -very- dangerous, yet the jedi did NOT kill her and instead took her into custody. Hell, look at KOTOR... similar in ideals. Even the jedi there didn't kill Revan when they could keep him alive and relatively harmless.
So the question becomes (And you didn't address it).... IF Yoda can shut people off from the force (BEcause he knows all and is the best jedi evah) THEN why didn't he use it on Skywalker, why didn't he use it on Sidious, why didn't he use it on the dark jedi? Even if just to make them easier to kill? Why not?
he also exterminated a small legion of Bpfasshi Dark Jedi, subdued the darkness on Yavin, CW sourcebook, and Power of the Jedi,
said a few things about him as well, including a mention of him having mastered every offensive and defensive technique the lightside has to offer, we've seen him use Battle Meditation to win supposedly hopeless battles,
Alright, don't get too excited. It's just a CGI fictional character.
And no, Yoda didn't master EVERY technique possible, or he would have destroyed Sidious with a simple maneuver or rendered him unconscious, dead, or helpless as a kitten. You pulled this "ZomG teh hyperbole!!!" spiel defending Sidious. Please try not to do it here.
purge the dark side from areas and even identify wuth a singular death through the force on a level unseen...we have how many duels from Kun exactly? Where did he do anything fancy in said duels? He tied with Ulic and killed a reluctant combatanant who didn't want to hurt his dearest
student.
Yay for Feat Wars and irrelevant misdirection!
Bad choreography means a bad fighter? Ok, Mace Windu sucks. And when did Kun do any better? Besides having the power to distort his face in a fight, I mean.
You miss the point.
Move >>> everything else. It's canon. It's the real deal. Yoda didn't WTFpwn anyone in the movies. If anything, MAce moving slower did more damage.
And we've seen Yoda ruthlessly kill his enemies without batting an eyelash...and about the Ataru, What West Reynolds wrote on Lightsaber combat.
And when Depa was in custody, she was a vegetable. And she was Mace's beloved former student. And when did Yoda have a chance to use the block on Skywalker? And why use it on Sidious, he was there to kill him, nothing less. Same reason as Vodo didn't try the block on Kun with about three other Jedi around to help him. Seriously, what good would it do? Sidious'd still be possessed of sound mind and the brilliance he used to wipe out the order. Yoda trusted Obi-wan to kill Anakin and went to kill Sidious. Whatever Mace chooses on the issue would be his priorities, but a much older and far more experienced Yoda? Yeah, Yoda knows when to kill someone and he's made that clear
And no, Janus, it did say that's what Yoda mastered, same as Sidious. It says it directly, in EU sources and thus cannot be refuted, logic be damned. They chose a lightsaber fight and that's all that we saw, the EU says otherwise on the issue and contradicts nothing in the movies.
And here we go...because one character has displayed far more power and has a lot more backing him up? But of course, must be feat wars! I asked you directly for something backing up Kun's style rather than a still frame frozen in combat.
And yeah, in the movies, Yoda fought twice. In the EU, he's fought a lot more, ask the Bpfasshi. And once more: Does Mace suck with a saber? And Yoda was fighting the cream of the crop as far as the movies were concerned.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And we've seen Yoda ruthlessly kill his enemies without batting an eyelash...and about the Ataru, What West Reynolds wrote on Lightsaber combat.
Where have we seen Yoda kill ruthlessly when he didn't have to? Where? And where is it that Ataru saps his force so much that he can't use the force when uh... NOT FIGHTING?
And when Depa was in custody, she was a vegetable. And she was Mace's beloved former student.
She sure as hell wasn't in a coma when she stabbed Mace in the stomach, was she? Did Mace try and kill her? NO! Stop arguing a false premise.
And when did Yoda have a chance to use the block on Skywalker?
Let me refresh your memory- when Obi-Wan and Yoda talk about the Sith, Yoda doesn't suggest running with Obi-Wan to the chancellor's office, zapping Sidious of the Force or whupping his ass, then going to Anakin and trying to oh... save him or convert him back by doing one of the KNOWN techniques like stripping him of the force. Point being, you can't prove that Yoda was capable of anything more than he did onscreen. And certainly, if he DIDN'T use other techniques, he was not using prudence, which is another strike against him in a fight. Period.
And why use it on Sidious, he was there to kill him, nothing less. Same reason as Vodo didn't try the block on Kun with about three other Jedi around to help him. Seriously, what good would it do?
A lot of good. If you could zap your opponent of the force and render him helpless, or fight him to the death and potentially lose, which would you use? Be realistic here, LS.
Sidious'd still be possessed of sound mind and the brilliance he used to wipe out the order.
Yes, because these things work wonders when imprisoned by what you are calling "The best jedi evah". Please.
Yoda trusted Obi-wan to kill Anakin and went to kill Sidious. Whatever Mace chooses on the issue would be his priorities, but a much older and far more experienced Yoda? Yeah, Yoda knows when to kill someone and he's made that clear
Yoda knew Obi-Wan couldn't handle Sidious but he assumed he could. But really, this is pointless. You're arguing that Yoda was the best jedi ever and knew all force techniques, yet he couldn't take Obi-Wan with him and off both of them or cut them off from the force or wrap the chancellor's desk around his head? Come on now.
And no, Janus, it did say that's what Yoda mastered, same as Sidious. It says it directly, in EU sources and thus cannot be refuted, logic be damned.
WHICH sources? And again, it's not likely, reasonable, or possible that this is the case. And since Yoda doesn't actually SHOW that he knows any of this, your 'undeniable source' comes under fire. And Yoda is a movie character. Really, unless GL comes out and says "Yoda r teh best, he know teh all" it's likely not the case. Try using evidence sometimes.
They chose a lightsaber fight and that's all that we saw, the EU says otherwise on the issue and contradicts nothing in the movies.
It DOES contradict Yoda's apparent helplessness to stop the sith and his relatively basic arsenal of force powers. So yes, it DOES contradict. And you can't even cite the source, can you? Please provide that.
And here we go...because one character has displayed far more power and has a lot more backing him up? But of course, must be feat wars!
Please, don't mock my own homemade phrase by misusing it, LS. Here's the breakdown:
- You made a claim.
- You can't prove claim. The highest canon evidence seems to refute it.
- Therefore, you must provide conclusive and convincing evidence.
- UNtil you do this, you have no argument. Period.
And feat wars means when someone argues large amounts of unrelated feats that actually have no relevance to the fight at hand to explain why someone wins. Got that?
I asked you directly for something backing up Kun's style rather than a still frame frozen in combat.
Could you clarify this? I don't get why you need to bring up Exar Kun at ALL.
And yeah, in the movies, Yoda fought twice. In the EU, he's fought a lot more, ask the Bpfasshi.
Excellent. Provide sources, UNBIASED context, and relevance to your claim. Then apply LOGIC.
And once more: Does Mace suck with a saber?
No, he doesn't, Mister Irrelevant Misdirection. Yoda did NOT show complete mastery of every single force feat in the world on screen or in action in EU, nor is he by far the most powerful jedi evah. You fail to prove up. You lose.
And Yoda was fighting the cream of the crop as far as the movies were concerned.
But not as far as EU is concerned. And Mace put Sidious on his ass in a relatively short amount of time. Yoda fooled around until Sidious got the high ground and then LOST HIS ASS.
QED, Lightsnake. Give it up.
We saw Yoda rather ruthlessly kill his FRIEND, the king of Thustra when he could have disarmed him, we saw Yoda kill the dark Jedi when he was young, Yoda also slaughtered a group of Dathomiri witches who threatened him...and who said anything about Yoda not using the Force?
Of course, Depa being Mace's beloved student and being in a coma when he returned her to the temple has what to do with it?
Except, y'know, it says what he did know in the EU. And perhaps he simply thought using the force against Sidious would be inconclusive. And yes, that zap from the force worked SO well on Kun...once more, Yoda wanted to kill Sidious, why didn't Vodo use the block on Kun with three other Jedi to help him? Yoda wanted to wipe out the Sith in one move, hence him sending Obi-wan after Yoda.
And once more: Official sources contradict you, meaning whatever itnerpretations you have are incorrect. Yeah, Yoda is described as the strongest foe the darkness had ever known. Period.
And I posted the sources earlier: Clone Wars and Powers of the JEdi SBKs
Oh, yes, imprisoning the chancellor when your'e already an outlaw traitor is so brilliant, especially when you want to kill Sidious and he can possibly block whatever you hurl at him!
Yoda using a saber as a preference means he's got a basic arsenal of force powers? Hell, Kun's arsenal must REALLY suck then. Vodo's must be even worse!
And Janus, your opinion seems to be 'if he can't show it, he doesn't have it' despite what is directly claimed. Point is simple: Yoda could have, he chose to use his saber for the fight rather than the Force for reasons best known to him and George Lucas, same reason as I could cite for almost every last fight within the entirety of Star Wars, move OR EU. Once more: Since the sources directly state he did know them, I'm doing to believe them, regardless of what Yoda has or has not shown, considering the extremely rare times yoda actually fights.
And yeah, as far as the EU's concerned, those guys are the cream of the crop. Most powerful force of darkness? Most powerful enemy the darkness had ever known? One of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order had ever produced? And yeah, citing the quotes is proving up.
Once more, you might as well dispute Mace's usage of Vaapad. He never uses it in the movies after all. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, I've heard that somewhere on this board before.