Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=399313&highlight=beyonder
I SAID ONE HALF
Originally posted by Mr Master
I'll bet my KMC reputation on that.
You'll regret that. 🙁 Give me a week or so and i'll be back at home.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Why don't we let the onlookers be the judge of that, anyone who is interested in seeing what pre-retcon Beyonder is all about check out:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=399313&highlight=beyonder
His feats were very impressive but none of his actual feats, hyperbole aside were more impressive than either the M¡¦kraan crystal feat or the universe in the palm of the hand one.
Originally posted by Mr Master
It has a wealth of facts, opinions, speculations and scans of Classic Beyonder.
And still waiting to see what Phoenix can do that Beyonder can't.
It has a wealth of scans depicting feats which aren¡¦t the best in marvel. No facts though, just supposition and biased interpretation. Im quite puzzled as to why youre waiting to see that when Phoenixes top feats trump anything hes done on panel.
Originally posted by Mr Master
It's interesting that you made up MM needing SS's help, when in fact it was Phoenix, who actually needed help from several X-Men when preventing the Lattice of the Mkraan from crystal from shattering.
Ive made up not a thing. Im away working at the moment hence my recent absence. When I get back home I will post the relevant scans. ļ
The crystal is the access point to her home dimension and so her form was naturally drawn to it. As an energy creature she was being absorbed along with all other energy in the multiverse. (Please note that the crystal as stated on panel and admitted by the Beyonder himself could also absorb and revert the Beyonder to his original state. He too could be affected, so no biggie ƒº ) The X-men acted as anchors to the physical realm allowing her to apply her power to stop the threat of the crystal. The best feat in Marvel my friend. Containing the power of the multiversal reset switch that is the M¡¦kraan crystal as the gravitational forces within momentarily caused all reality to cease to exist. All done with her own power the X-men just allowed her to apply it where it was needed.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Because Phoenix in my opinion is useless in actual confrontation, it's never around, so what's it's point? When Beyonder threatened everything Phoenix Force is inactive. And it goes on but I'll only name a few:Korvac threat = Phoenix inactive
Thanos/IG threat = Phoenix inactive
Akhenaten threat = Phoenix inactive
Thanos/HOTU threat = Phoenix inactive
What does it take for this Phoenix Force to appear and do SOMETHING.
If you were to read the recent Giffen (Annihilation writer) interview on newarama you¡¦d see that when asked about the possibility of Phoenix appearing in the saga he said that Phoenix was a protected character, only accessible to X-men writers. (You can also find the interview on CBR forums) He inferred that there was two camps in marvel. X-men and everybody else, hence the reason why Phoenix is rarely seen outside of X-titles. Phoenixes non appearance in said instances is irrelevant when you consider that her creations were present and the fact that her she has been present a number of times to deal with threats greater than those you¡¦ve referred to. None of this changes the fact that Phoenix has greater actual feats than C. Beyonder. Moot point.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok, her feats are impressive, molding 616 universe in her hands, Beyonder created Star Systems and disintegrated those same Star Systems on a whim showing off, without any concentration, and he made Dimensions collapse, where thousands to millions of Star Systems can exist, without even noticing it, just for being in our Mulitiverse.
Star System - a large number of stars with a perceptible structure; a galaxy.
He also contained that explosion that defies all science-arcane and psionic "laws of limitation" according Scion of the Micronauts, it would have disintegrated the Microverse. .
And yet none of those feats are more impressive than Phoenixes top ones. Simple as. Destroying a sub atomic dimension is hardly awe inspiring. Phoenix reformed 616 in the palm of her hand atom by atom on a whim. Phoenix contained the power of the crystal as its effects were momentarily causing the multiverse to cease to exist, Phoenix created an energy matrix to flow through the multiverse connecting each reality together. Impressive as B is, feats wise theres no comparison,regardless of how omnipotent Be was presented back then, he just doesn¡¦t have the feats to conclusively back up the claims thrown around about him.
Originally posted by Mr Master
The bottom line is, if the Phoenix Force existed in Classic Beyonder's days, then by definition Beyonder was more powerful than the Phoenix Force, and so was Molecule Man since he was the SeCOND most powerful being in ALL existence.
Nope. Beyonder was claimed to be the most powerful being in the multiverse. Phoenix not only never faced the Beyonder in his classic incarnation, but also didn¡¦t reside in the multiverse but instead in the white hot room beyond. Youre still going by character comments, you need to understand without feats or actual on panel depictions to verify such claims theyre not conclusively the case. Beyonder was claimed to be all powerful and omniscient and yet as we discussed in the previous thread his on panel performance didn¡¦t verify this. Watcher claimed that M Man was the second most powerful being in the multiverse and yet his on panel performance didn¡¦t show that conclusively and on top of that as aforementioned the reference didn¡¦t and couldn¡¦t have accounted for the Force im ever so sorry to say.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Then don't you use character comments to prove your point ever again, cause I have seen you plenty of times quoting some character to solidify your opinion as fact, like for instance, when you used Beyonder's own words to try and prove that Beyonder said, Rachel is the closest thing to him on this planet. In actuality, He was referring to the Phoenix Force itself, because he CLEARLY said " This ENTITY Rachel's(notice the apostraphe S)Power, is extraordinary"
Who's extraordinary? The ENTITY, that is Rachel's Power. Thank You.
Nope. He said that entity Rachel. His remark comes as he watches her employ her abilities in combat. He is referring to her and her capabilities. 7 issues later he again makes reference to Rachel herself and her being a higher being like himself whilst likening those around her to amoeba. The Phoenix Force is an energy source, back when this was written the 86 Phoenix retcon hadn¡¦t taken place so it wasn¡¦t even an entity. With that in mind he is without a doubt referring to Rachel and her ability to tap into energy as a Phoenix and not the Phoenix Force itself. Sorry mate.
Originally posted by Mr Master
We ALL wonder why she didn't face him, but Beyonder is Beyond this creation aswell.
C. Beyonder existed as a universe beyond the marvel multiverse NOT beyond all marvel creation. The White Hot Room sits beyond Marvel creation.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Uhh GS, my argument does not only rely on a stupid comment, I have plenty of scans that I have posted of Beyonder displaying many feats, not please indulge me, and show me what Phoenix has done that's beyond what Beyonder can do, let's go scan for scan.
Ummm none of your scans trump Phoenixes top feats so I need do nothing my boy. Impressive as his feats are it will always come down to that point. We¡¦ve already discussed this in the previous thread, you could not make reference to a single feat which was more impressive than the likes of the M¡¦kraan feat or the universe in the palm of her hand feat.
Originally posted by Mr Master
What opinion? Facts my friend FACTS.
I showed the Scan of MM saving everybody by HIMSELF, this is not an opinion, take that to your minions. I'll post it again if you wish, I'll post the whole comic book if you want.
Impressive and yet none of his feats trump Phoenixes therefore Watchers comments were not verified on panel. Not debatable.
Originally posted by Mr Master
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHALOLOLOLOLOL
Don't try and make allies when trapped, Leon only proved that the New Universe was created in late 1986 november, but in 84' to late 86' Beyonder was ALL there was beyond the multiverse.
There are two bios friend,
In one:http://www.marveldirectory.com/otherdimensions/beyond.htm
This one clearly tells us that beyond our own reality lies THE universe of the Beyonder.
Not A universe, Not ONE of MANY universes, JUST THE UNIVERSE.
Before the retcon it was brought to our attention that other universes (New Universe) existed beyond the marvel multiverse therefore your point is moot. Your argument with relation to this is just supposition your point was not stated therefore you cannot treat your opinion on the matter as fact. It was stated that beyond the multiverse lies the Beyonders universe, it DID NOT state that that was the only thing that lies beyond it, you just assumed that, that was your interpretation. Before the retcon we were told about the new universe therefore just to reiterate your point is as ever MOOT.
Originally posted by Mr Master
pparently to HIGH to even be considered in these versus forums anymore, LOL.
The Phoenix has always been an interesting cosmic entity...when it/she was first revealed, The Watcher, (I believe), said the Phoenix Force was second only to God. Hyperbole, for sure, that should be ignored...since Galactus was once referred to, (by the same Watcher), as the most powerful being in the universe.
Hyperbole? Possibly, but given that the Phoenix spawns Marvel reality and has been depicted as being greater than LT, possibly not. With the Watchers comments about Galactus, they were shown on panel to conclusively not be the case. Theres the difference.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Fast-forward to the 90's and a slew of cosmic crossovers (mostly Infinity stuff) and events (ie. Warlock on trial) and the Phoenix is nowhere to be seen. Fast-forward even further to 'X-Men: Forever' and it's revealed that the Phoenix Force is the ressurection force, and all cosmic beings (including LT) will be replaced by mutants in the future. Sure, fine...I have no problem. Next we see the 'White-Crown' Phoenix holding Universe 616 in the palm of her hand, and all I have to say is WHOA! When did she/it go from being pretty much nonfactorish to on par with, (or superior to), LT?But anyway...the best and most coherent explanation I've read describing the Phoenix (and LT's) role in the MU is this:
1. The multiverse is a forest...each tree is a separate universe (Eternity/Infinity).
2. The Phoenix Force is the lifeforce...the sap that flows within these trees.
3. LT is the landscaping man who makes sure that no tree grows substantially taller than another, he also chops down any diseased/decaying trees, so they don't affect any of the others. Or he could be holding a shotgun, to guard from invaders from another forest (ie. Beyonder as he was shown before the retcon).
Plagiarism!! I thought I recognised this post. This was posted by Lord S on another forum. Unfortunately for you he also happens to be a KMC member. I¡¦ll alert him to your admiration. The Phoenix has never been a non factor, as revealed by Giffen it is a protected character like most x-characters and so is rarely allowed to feature outside of X-titles due to the internal politics at Marvel. Right from its conception and in virtually all of its appearances regardless of the roles given to the slew of new cosmics in the 90¡¦s its always been stated that the Phoenix is the power behind the creation cycle, the driving force behind reality.
While that explanation pertaining to LT and Phoenixes comparative roles is quite good, it gives an incomplete picture. While the Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of life, the very life force of reality that is not the be all and end all of it. As stated on panel it also exists as a central consciousness in the White Hot Room, where it and its avatars survey existence and it co-ordinates their manifestations and subsequent microsurgery within reality.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I'll POST the whoile comic just to PROVE you wrong, especially now that you repeated your ABSOLUTELY FALSE statement.
Knowing you you'll be characteristically selective in your posting 😖hifty: . I'll post the relevant scans when I go back home.
That's all
-GS
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You'll regret that. 🙁 Give me a week or so and i'll be back at home.
I'm not regreting anything, your a bit derranged gs. I wonder your facial expression, what it must be, when you see your not only wrong but totally delusional. Sorry mate, but Molecule Man saved the day ALL by his LONESOME, you may find a way to interpret that as Siver Surfer helping him, LOLOLOL, realize how I didn't even give an action, because ther is none, well unless you take into account Silver Surfer holding the dead baby in his hands(which incidentally has nothing to do with this scene)and saying," Dead, the baby's dead" AHAHAHAHA, Silver Surfer is literally only seen twice during this whole ordeal, during literally absolutely NOTHING!!!, in the end of Secret Wars II issue #9, LOL, sorry it's just, this is rediculous, you must be fooling with me to be seriously suggesting that SILVER SUFER had ANYTHING to do with MOLECULE MAN saving everyone BY HIMSELF from utter destruction during the end of the SECRET WARS II saga.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
His feats were very impressive but none of his actual feats, hyperbole aside were more impressive than either the M¡¦kraan crystal feat or the universe in the palm of the hand one.
Whatever, that's the only thing you can bring out, one way or another she still needed help from other X-Men to achieve the M'kraan crystal feat, no, no don't explain it away as usual, she needed help, bottom line.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It has a wealth of scans depicting feats which aren¡¦t the best in marvel. No facts though, just supposition and biased interpretation. Im quite puzzled as to why youre waiting to see that when Phoenixes top feats trump anything hes done on panel.
I don't know what your seeking though, Beyonder showed power on ALL levels,
Power over the creation of Souls aswell as being able to negate them from ever even existing, Mephisto was pissed when Beyonder did this, since he would not be able to enjoy any of their souls since they never existed, even Death itself would not be able to even get the minute bit of energy that comes with a lifeforce, with regards from the Beyonder.
And not to show off but he did this to over 100 billions sould at once, with one thought, I'll pop up the scan ofcourse if you wish. I already have before in our prior debate.
Not to mention containing Universal explosions that are scientifically-arcanely-and psionically impossible.
Off the top of my head:
Making every atom in everything, in 616 reality BOW down to him.
Creating Star Systems.
Exploding Galaxies from a distance of over 3 billion light years.
Owning the Celestial(HAND to HAND)
Forget about Killing, RE-CREATING the multiversal concept of DEATH.
Control over the Time Stream,
like changing Hulk's destiny, if it were not for the Beyonder, Hulk would not be who he is today, I bet those ret-con bastards forgot about that one, LOL, or plucking PowerMan & Iron Fist, out of the past and shifting them to his present.
Emitting a BLAST that can TRANSCEND the entire Multiverse.
Multiversal Omniscience - I agreed after giving it thought and research that he was NOT omniscient in the ABSOLUTE sense, but because of my research I realized he was omniscient on a multiversal scale.
How?
When TimeBomb mentioned his name on earth, Beyonder instantaneously appeared, Beyonder was in the universe of the Celestials at the time. This is across universes he's sensing everything, otherwise he would not be able to hear her voice if he were not sensing every sound in our universe while existing in the Celestial Universe. This is one example, Spiderman called out to him too, I have the scanable proof, he was in Mephisto's dimension at the time, he immediately vanished and appeared before Spiderman and Puma, ofcourse I showed you this before but you dismissed it, as you do with anything that proves you wrong, LOL.
Oh, and making mortals trully god-like, eg. Dazzler, when he gave Dazzler half his power, she became more powerful than the multiverse combined.
And even Rachel got a small glimpse of what it was to have some of Beyonder's power, it specifically said, " "she wondered if this is how her Mother(Jean)felt when she transformed into the Phoenix."
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive made up not a thing. Im away working at the moment hence my recent absence. When I get back home I will post the relevant scans.
Sorry mate but you did make up "A THING"
You made up Silver Surfer helping Molecule Man during the Colorodo Fissure that Beyonder created, this "Fissure" was a small fraction of the DAMAGE that blast trully created, it caused destruction till the ends of the marvel multiverse, luckily though Molecule Man was there by HIMSELF to contain and repair the situation, by HIMSELF without the HELP of the SILVER SUFER!
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
(Please note that the crystal as stated on panel and admitted by the Beyonder himself could also absorb and revert the Beyonder to his original state. He too could be affected, so no biggie
This is most interesting, now Beyonder's WORDS count, but when he said he was ALL REALITY in this Multiverse he's hyperboling, or when the WRITERS themselves write something about the Beyonder within the comic book itself, it's hyperboling.
shame, shame on you.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The best feat in Marvel my friend. Containing the power of the multiversal reset switch that is the M¡¦kraan crystal as the gravitational forces within momentarily caused all reality to cease to exist. All done with her own power the X-men just allowed her to apply it where it was needed.
Ahh big deal the Ultimite Nullifier remade the multiverse, or did you forget, Beyonder was ALL REALITY and could have just as easily destroyed multiverse, not even just destroy it, Beyonder could have ERASED it from ever being, What a slap in the face to "Phoenix's creation" LOL, I have the SCANS baby, yea bring it.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Destroying a sub atomic dimension is hardly awe inspiring.
Besides that it's impossible, I agree.
Already told you, This feat for all intent and purposes, is IMPOSSIBLE!
Yet Beyonder did it, and and as a matter of fact this explosion would have spilt into the molecular structure of nearby realities, yes even realities that dwarf our own, and it would have caused a chain reaction that would have caused havok across the cosmos. Which is why Scion, a being that has come across all the knowledge across countless intellects and philosophies, that what Beyonder did was scientifically-arcanically or psionically impossible, he thought of Beyonder as "GOD", Beyonder told him he was not any such thing.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix reformed 616 in the palm of her hand atom by atom on a whim. Phoenix contained the power of the crystal as its effects were momentarily causing the multiverse to cease to exist, Phoenix created an energy matrix to flow through the multiverse connecting each reality together.
Impressive, I've always said that, which is why she may be on par with him, nothing more.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Beyonder was claimed to be the most powerful being in the multiverse.
WOW! This is true, i'm proud of you.
And that's millions of times more powerful than ALL the power in the multiverse combined. But who's counting.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix not only never faced the Beyonder in his classic incarnation, but also didn¡¦t reside in the multiverse but instead in the white hot room beyond.
Beyonder was not of this Multiverse iether, and he was not under Phoenix's jurisdiction in any way
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre still going by character comments,
You use character comments too dude, don't play yourself.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Watcher claimed that M Man was the second most powerful being in the multiverse and yet his on panel performance didn¡¦t show that conclusively
Watcher wasn't the only one who said it, it was repeated through out the series by writers and other characters aswell, ALL aproved by Stan Lee.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. He said that entity Rachel.
This is where you always mess up, when you lose your sanity and make claims KNOWING otherwise.
He CLEARLY said "This ENTITY, Rachel's(apostraphe "S"😉power is extraordinary.."
He then segues into "She is AKIN* to a young star that has just begun to glow"
AKIN - definition - From Websters: related by blood.
She's RELATED to a young star that has just begun to glow.
He's still talking about the Phoenix Force.
He then goes on to say, "of all the beings on this WORLD she is POTENTIALLY the most like me."
Potentially, because he's talking about her FULL power which would be the Phoenix Force. Why would he say POTENTIALLY then?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
back when this was written the 86 Phoenix retcon hadn¡¦t taken place so it wasn¡¦t even an entity.
Watch how you contradict yourself in your own row of posts, WATCH. Here your saying Phoenix Force was not an entity BACK THEN, LOL this is quite funny.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
C. Beyonder existed as a universe beyond the marvel multiverse NOT beyond all marvel creation. The White Hot Room sits beyond Marvel creation.
Ok now there is a White Hot Room where the Phoenix Force resides, BACK THEN.
CONTRADICTION! Not surprised one bit though
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
you could not make reference to a single feat which was more impressive than the likes of the M¡¦kraan feat or the universe in the palm of her hand feat.
The Mkraan crystal event was not achievable on her own, she needed several X-Men to help her to that.
She molded 616 in her hands, Beyonder contained an explosion that would of disintegrated the Microverse, which is a sub-atomic universe not a dimension.
That may sound insignificant but the explosion would have annihilated the Microverse, then on a molecular level would have spilled into adjacent realities(universes)and would have destroyed them too including 616 which is a neighbor to the Microverse according to Scion. In fact he really only saved them because he didn't want the 616(wasn't referred to as that)to be destroyed since Dazzler existed in it, he was still in love with her you see.
Although he used saving their Universe as an excuse.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Impressive and yet none of his feats trump Phoenixes therefore Watchers comments were not verified on panel. Not debatable.
Well it was ON PANEL that Watcher bowed down to Molecule Man, since it was drawn it's verified right? When have you ever again or before seen the Watcher do that?
ALL the cosmics, ALL! including Living Tribunal were drawn being in AWE of the Beyonder, begging him to not kill DEATH, and when the Molecule Man appeared, they acted like the president had just arrived, LOL.
It was also ON PANEL that Beyonder was in the Beyond Realm with Molecule Man, where Molecule Man said, "here we are BEYOND ALL KNOWN EXISTENCE, the Beyond Realm."
So since you only consider on panel artwork, this was drawn too, so therefore he must of surely emcompassed everything outside the Multiverse since the Multiverse was ALL known EXISTENCE back then.
The New Universe was created in October 1986, so from May 1984 to October 1986, Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse. Just like it was conclusively proved on panel.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Before the retcon it was brought to our attention that other universes (New Universe) existed beyond the marvel multiverse therefore your point is moot.
No mate, your point is moot.
You can lie but your problem is I have the comics, the scans, the proof.
The New Universe was introduced in October of 86', now I know your a bit derranged, but yes, that means that from Mayof 84' to OCt. of 86, Beyonder was ALL there was beyond the multiverse.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was stated that beyond the multiverse lies the Beyonders universe, it DID NOT state that that was the only thing that lies beyond it, you just assumed that, that was your interpretation.
It also CLEARLY DOES NOT state that there was anything out there, that's your assumption and interpretation.
it clearly states, "Beyond our own reality lies the universe of the Beyonder"
Anyone who wants to verify that, be my guess.
http://www.marveldirectory.com/otherdimensions/beyond.htm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Plagiarism!! I thought I recognised this post. This was posted by Lord S on another forum. Unfortunately for you he also happens to be a KMC member. I¡¦ll alert him to your admiration.
AHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!
This is a serious accusation so it must be treated harshly.
And don't even try and bring up the phrase other forums in here, when your azz has been banned from forums for straight up lies and warping facts and evidence to make yourself right.
You child, (you deserve this for accusing without seeing things through)
read the entire damn post before commenting and read comics other than Lucifer and X-Men and maybe your learn something.
Before I posted that cool interpretation, I clearly wrote, I READ SOMEWHERE!
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
While that explanation pertaining to LT and Phoenixes comparative roles is quite good, it gives an incomplete picture.
I think that was a perfect interpretation of what it's all about.
Props due to "Lord S"
Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not regreting anything, your a bit derranged gs. I wonder your facial expression, what it must be, when you see your not only wrong but totally delusional. Sorry mate, but Molecule Man saved the day ALL by his LONESOME, you may find a way to interpret that as Siver Surfer helping him, LOLOLOL, realize how I didn't even give an action, because ther is none, well unless you take into account Silver Surfer holding the dead baby in his hands(which incidentally has nothing to do with this scene)and saying," Dead, the baby's dead" AHAHAHAHA, Silver Surfer is literally only seen twice during this whole ordeal, during literally absolutely NOTHING!!!, in the end of Secret Wars II issue #9, LOL, sorry it's just, this is rediculous, you must be fooling with me to be seriously suggesting that SILVER SUFER had ANYTHING to do with MOLECULE MAN saving everyone BY HIMSELF from utter destruction during the end of the SECRET WARS II saga.
Like I said Im away working, I can only post sneakily while at work so not only can I not get into this as much as I would like but I also don’t have access to my scans which would allow me to settle this issue. How I remember it Silver Surfer in one of the later issues of SW2 helped out Molecule Man in a way other than that which youre describing. If I go home and find my recollections not up to scratch then I’ll gladly admit it. No biggie.I doubt very much that will be the case though. 😉
Originally posted by Mr Master
Whatever, that's the only thing you can bring out, one way or another she still needed help from other X-Men to achieve the M'kraan crystal feat, no, no don't explain it away as usual, she needed help, bottom line.I don't know what your seeking though, Beyonder showed power on ALL levels,
Bottom line is that feat is beyond anything the Beyonders ever done on panel, so it stands to reason im going to focus on it. We are after all talking about two virtually omnipotent forces. She needed a physical anchor so she could apply her power. She wasn’t given power by the X-men, she wasn’t aided in energising and reweaving the stasis fields that contained “power absolute” according to the comics. Those actions were the biggest feat in Marvel and they were achieved by her own power. The X-men acted as physical anchors and so merely gave her the opportunity to apply her power, they never bolstered it therefore your point is again MOOT.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Power over the creation of Souls aswell as being able to negate them from ever even existing, Mephisto was pissed when Beyonder did this, since he would not be able to enjoy any of their souls since they never existed, even Death itself would not be able to even get the minute bit of energy that comes with a lifeforce, with regards from the Beyonder.And not to show off but he did this to over 100 billions sould at once, with one thought, I'll pop up the scan ofcourse if you wish. I already have before in our prior debate.
No need. Phoenixs power spawns and sustains the multiverse and the abstracts every creation cycle so all of these things you mention while impressive aren’t helping your case. They still don’t trump the Phoenixes top feats, please understand that.
[QUOTE=6689874]Originally posted by Mr Master
[B] Not to mention containing Universal explosions that are scientifically-arcanely-and psionically impossible.
You mean microversal don’t you? lol 😉
On top of that performing feats beyond the realms of accepted science/magic etc is something that’s been said about many a cosmic being. How many times have you heard a feat from the likes of Galactus or the like described as scientifically impossible, inconceivable or off the scale? Its an impressive feat but its nothing many a cosmic being let alone Phoenix couldn’t do.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Off the top of my head:
Making every atom in everything, in 616 reality BOW down to him.
All matter and energy from reality originates from the force anyway. Big deal.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Creating Star Systems.
Do I really need to address this? 🙂
Originally posted by Mr Master
Exploding Galaxies from a distance of over 3 billion light years.
What about Phoenix casually amputating a universes future timeline? (NXM 154)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Owning the Celestial(HAND to HAND)
The Celestials are below the abstracts. Again Big deal.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Forget about Killing, RE-CREATING the multiversal concept of DEATH.
He recreated her by just killing a human. 😕 He merely re-introduced the concept, don¡¦t try and make it sound more impressive than it was. Nightcrawler could have achieved that feat with a flick of his prehensile toes. Your description would lead people who haven¡¦t read the mini to believe he reformed Death out of his own energies or something of that nature. A notion we both know is far from the case. Death of 616 isnt a multiversal being, it is very much universal and has counterparts. It is however linked to its counterparts and the ridding of Death of 616 was felt across the multiverse as stated. Please bear in mind how it was felt was not determined. For you to assume that that line meant that Death no longer existed in the multiverse and to present your interpretation as fact is really not acceptable my friend ƒ¼
Originally posted by Mr Master
Control over the Time Stream,
like changing Hulk's destiny, if it were not for the Beyonder, Hulk would not be who he is today, I bet those ret-con bastards forgot about that one, LOL, or plucking PowerMan & Iron Fist, out of the past and shifting them to his present.
Phoenix amputated the entire 616 future timeline leaving it in a static state (effectively dooming the reality) because she deemed the Here Comes tomorrow future undesirable, she then proceeded to reach in to reality psionically to alter the reactions of Cyclops thereby causing a new future to grow. (The one youre currently reading about every time you pick up a Marvel comic 😉 )
Originally posted by Mr Master
Emitting a BLAST that can TRANSCEND the entire Multiverse.
And Phoenix projected a tower throughout the multiverse, making it exist simultaneously in every reality therefore connecting them and creating an energy matrix that courses throughout the multiverse. It was with this power that Otherworld was created.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Multiversal Omniscience - I agreed after giving it thought and research that he was NOT omniscient in the ABSOLUTE sense, but because of my research I realized he was omniscient on a multiversal scale.
How?
When TimeBomb mentioned his name on earth, Beyonder instantaneously appeared, Beyonder was in the universe of the Celestials at the time. This is across universes he's sensing everything, otherwise he would not be able to hear her voice if he were not sensing every sound in our universe while existing in the Celestial Universe. This is one example, Spiderman called out to him too, I have the scanable proof, he was in Mephisto's dimension at the time, he immediately vanished and appeared before Spiderman and Puma, ofcourse I showed you this before but you dismissed it, as you do with anything that proves you wrong, LOL.
The Celestials Homeworld to my knowledge isn¡¦t in another universe it very much is within 616 unless you can post the scene here to show me where it states otherwise. While the Celestials themselves, their essences are to be found in hyperspace their homeworld is in 616 therefore referring to that as an example of him having multiversal omniscience would be flawed practice im afraid. Mephistos dimension isn¡¦t in another universe, it is a pocket dimension adjacent to 616. Go to marvunapp.com and you will see a breakdown of multiverse, megaverse, dimensions etc and how they relate to each other. You appear to be confused on the concepts. It is very much within the 616 space/time continuum so you cant have that one either my friend. Infinity and Eternity comprise the space/time continnum and as such even they can appear instantly at any point within reality. Therefore that¡¦s another feat that while generally impressive, just really isn¡¦t helping your argument. Uatu the Watcher as stated in his bio and as illustrated in the What Ifs his perceptions allow him to perceive events across the multiverse, some of the elders of the universe (such as Contemplator) can do the same and Genis/Photons cosmic awareness allowed him to perceive events across the multiverse as stated and depicted on panel. All in all your listing many an impressive feat but as many a cosmic can and has performed them using said feats to help your argument against Phoenix just isn¡¦t a wise strategy son.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Oh, and making mortals trully god-like, eg. Dazzler, when he gave Dazzler half his power, she became more powerful than the multiverse combined.
And even Rachel got a small glimpse of what it was to have some of Beyonder's power, it specifically said, " "she wondered if this is how her Mother(Jean)felt when she transformed into the Phoenix."
That may have been stated about Dazzler, but it doesn¡¦t change the fact that Phoenix wasn¡¦t in the mini and as we know it wasn¡¦t even in the multiverse therefore the reference just doesn¡¦t apply. Rachel was just a mutant who as stated was given limited access to the Force as stated on panel just a few issues previously. When Beyonder amped up her power she became an energy being she WONDERED if that¡¦s how her mother felt when she became Phoenix. Whats your point son? Im finding it ever so hard to find a relevant one. Did the comic state or depict that when he did this to Rachel that she was raised in terms of power and perception to the level of the previous Phoenix, or did she just wonder if this is how her mother felt? Point dismissed „³
Originally posted by Mr Master
Sorry mate but you did make up "A THING"You made up Silver Surfer helping Molecule Man during the Colorodo Fissure that Beyonder created, this "Fissure" was a small fraction of the DAMAGE that blast trully created, it caused destruction till the ends of the marvel multiverse, luckily though Molecule Man was there by HIMSELF to contain and repair the situation, by HIMSELF without the HELP of the SILVER SUFER!
As I said before I recall Silver Surfer helping Molecule Man in a way other than the instance youre choosing to post. As I don¡¦t have access to comics until next week I¡¦ll have to wait till then to say any more on the issue. Don¡¦t accuse me of lying MM. If you wanna turn this from a debate into an exercise in insult throwing then be my guest. Im sure you know how that will turn out. Just remember who started it. 😉
Originally posted by Mr Master
This is most interesting, now Beyonder's WORDS count, but when he said he was ALL REALITY in this Multiverse he's hyperboling, or when the WRITERS themselves write something about the Beyonder within the comic book itself, it's hyperboling.
shame, shame on you.
The difference is that the crystal has been shown on panel to be capable of wiping out multiverses. The last multiverse was brought to an end by the crystal for example and it is stated on panel to be power absolute. Therefore Beyonder saying himself that the crystal could affect him is believable, even moreso after his expression of anger and disappointment after Rachel decided not to go through with unleashing the crystals power and the fact that it could affect the being who spawns the multiverse and has better on panel feats than him. Captions and character comments pertaining to Beyonder being omnipotent or totally omniscient however have been shown on panel conclusively to not be the case. That¡¦s the difference.
As a side note, the Beyonder has never said that he was all reality in the multiverse. Lets not lget carried away now MM.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Ahh big deal the Ultimite Nullifier remade the multiverse, or did you forget, Beyonder was ALL REALITY and could have just as easily destroyed multiverse, not even just destroy it, Beyonder could have ERASED it from ever being, What a slap in the face to "Phoenix's creation" LOL, I have the SCANS baby, yea bring it.
Nope, the Ultimate Nullifier never remade the multiverse. Im thinking your listening to forum talk and readily accepting it as fact without having read the relevant issues yourself. The UN reset Eternity during the Abraxas Saga meaning that Abraxas never got to wreck destruction across the multiverse. That¡¦s different.
Yeah Beyonder probably could have destroyed the multiverse, I don¡¦t doubt that. Doesn¡¦t change the fact that it¡¦s a creation of Phoenixes and that she still has better feats than him.
The Beyonder was NOT all reality. Where has this ridiculous new claim just suddenly come from. Beyonder was all in his universe outside the mainstream multiverse, but that¡¦s all. Its stated on panel that he was a universe outside the main one in the first issue of SW2. The point is then made in the Official Marvel bios referring to him as being all in an other-dimensional universe. Nowhere has it been stated that he was ALL reality.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Besides that it's impossible, I agree.Already told you, This feat for all intent and purposes, is IMPOSSIBLE!
Yet Beyonder did it, and and as a matter of fact this explosion would have spilt into the molecular structure of nearby realities, yes even realities that dwarf our own, and it would have caused a chain reaction that would have caused havok across the cosmos. Which is why Scion, a being that has come across all the knowledge across countless intellects and philosophies, that what Beyonder did was scientifically-arcanically or psionically impossible, he thought of Beyonder as "GOD", Beyonder told him he was not any such thing.
Many actions performed by cosmics are described by non cosmics or captions as impossible or incalculable. Big deal. Its just a way of conveying the scale they operate on. Regardless the destruction of a sub atomic pocket dimension is not beyond many a cosmic. Nor is it beyond many a cosmic to perform what many non cosmics would deem to be impossible.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Impressive, I've always said that, which is why she may be on par with him, nothing more.
Nope. Given that she has performed better feats than him that statement just doesn’t make sense and should be reversed. How can you say that she can only possibly be on par with him when on panel shes pulled off more impressive feats. Character comments alone are insufficient when they aren’t verified by on panel events. Comments pertaining to his level of omniscience and omnipotence whilst supported to an extent have conclusively been shown to be exaggerated. With that in mind it would be better to say that while Classic Beyonder was claimed to be a power on an insurmountable level his on panel performances do not paint the same picture and as such while he may possibly have been intended as a greater power, with no on panel reference making a direct comparison to the powers in relation to each other you cannot treat as fact the opinion that Classic Beyonder was beyond the Phoenix Force.
Originally posted by Mr Master
WOW! This is true, i'm proud of you.And that's millions of times more powerful than ALL the power in the multiverse combined. But who's counting
A claim that as discussed here and in the previous thread not only wasn’t verified on panel but was cast into doubt by Beyonders appearances and as such is insufficient evidence. While its your choice to take it as fact if you wish, you cant preach it as so in debate with others. Theres just no way of getting around that.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder was not of this Multiverse iether, and he was not under Phoenix's jurisdiction in any way
He was not of this multiverse, but he is very much a part of Marvel creation as he is a marvel character. Therefore if we were to look at current Phoenix in relation to his classic interpretation she exists in a dimension beyond all reality which she surveys as depicted in New X-men 154.
Originally posted by Mr Master
You use character comments too dude, don't play yourself.
I certainly do use character comments, however the difference is the ones I take heed of have not been disputed by on panel showings, have not been shown by events to be exaggerated and have been stated and in some cases depicted to be the case by various characters in multiple titles and official sources such as handbooks. Theres the difference.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Watcher wasn't the only one who said it, it was repeated through out the series by writers and other characters aswell, ALL aproved by Stan Lee.
The reference didn’t apply to the Phoenix for the aforementioned reasons. It never faced him in a confrontation and as we know doesn’t reside in the multiverse, its power base isn’t a part of the multiverse. The Watchers and Stan Lees comments therefore are irrelevant in terms of what youre trying to prove.
Originally posted by Mr Master
This is where you always mess up, when you lose your sanity and make claims KNOWING otherwise.
He CLEARLY said "This ENTITY, Rachel's(apostraphe "S"😉power is extraordinary.."
He then segues into "She is AKIN* to a young star that has just begun to glow"
AKIN - definition - From Websters: related by blood.
She's RELATED to a young star that has just begun to glow.
He's still talking about the Phoenix Force.
He then goes on to say, "of all the beings on this WORLD she is POTENTIALLY the most like me."
Potentially, because he's talking about her FULL power which would be the Phoenix Force. Why would he say POTENTIALLY then?
Rachel in issue 196 hadnt even become Phoenix yet. That didn’t happen until issue 199. Thats the potential hes talking about. Back then when the issue was written, the Phoenix Force as we know it didn’t exist. Therefore in this case the Beyonder is conclusively referring to Rachel and her latent potential to employ vast cosmic power as she would go on to be able do a few later issues later. This scene takes place pre phoenix retcon therefore your point is moot. Pre retcon there was no force Jean literally was Phoenix. The Phoenix Force thing came in when editors wanted Jean for the X-factor comic but of course they couldn’t have a mass murderer as a prominent hero so the retcon made Jean and Phoenix two separate things, thereby making this new Phoenix Force accountable for the crimes. (Please bear in mind that that idea itself has since been retconned lol) Rachel would have been merely a mutant with the genetic potential to tap into vast cosmic power making her Phoenix, a name her mother chose as reference to her death and rebirth. There was no Phoenix Force, therefore youre very wrong. Its just Rachel baby!!!
He said Rachels power is extraordinary as he watches her in combat. He’s referring to Rachel and her ability to apply her power, by saying this entity Rachels” he specifies the subject to which he is referring to, he makes no additional reference to change the subject to Rachels power source. So although we know conclusively that at the time the Beyonder wasn’t referring to the Force if we were now to look back at that scene and interpret it as per current continuity your point is still moot as he clearly marks out Rachel as the extraordinary entity and he refers to Rachels potential. In current continuity the Phoenix Force is Jean it is more than just a power source however Beyonders comments still wouldn’t apply as he made no reference to any subject but Rachel and her potential with her power. As per current continuity when Rachel was Phoenix the Force gave her limited access, she could only draw on limited amounts. But it was said that potentially she could become more on par with her mother. Just to reiterate its all about Rachel baby!!!
Originally posted by Mr Master
Watch how you contradict yourself in your own row of posts, WATCH. Here your saying Phoenix Force was not an entity BACK THEN, LOL this is quite funny.
Im not contradicting myself at all. Im making the point that at the point in which that comic was made (forget all that’s happened since) there was no Phoenix Force just the Grey family who had the genetic potential to tap into vast cosmic energies. Jean realised this potential after being bombarded with solar radiation. Rachel realised this potential after she linked with the Shiar holempathic crystal in issue 199 and decided to take on the codename Phoenix in honour of her mother. That was continuity at that point and therefore the Beyonders words were conclusively related to Rachel and not the Phoenix Force that would be retconned into existence just a short while later. This argument we’re having however is pertaining to the Current interpretation of Phoenix therefore there is no contradiction my friend.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok now there is a White Hot Room where the Phoenix Force resides, BACK THEN.CONTRADICTION! Not surprised one bit though
Not a contradiction at all as we’re arguing about the current Phoenix interpretation in relation to Classic Beyonder. However for that specific point about Beyonders comments pertaining to Rachel I just wanted to highlight why you were conclusively incorrect. When a retcon takes place as readers we have to look back and assume that what they introduce was always the case. Therefore none of Beyonders comments applied to the Phoenix Force and the Phoenix as aforementioned here and in the other thread would overlook all of Marvel creation including the Beyond Realm from the confines of the White Hot Room. 😉
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Mkraan crystal event was not achievable on her own, she needed several X-Men to help her to that.
Not true at all. Phoenix spawns all life in reality. What was to stop her from creating a physical anchor just for the purpose of dealing with the M’kraan crystal? Regardless, the X-men never bolstered her power or dealt with the actual feat itself, the binding of the crystals power. Their physicality’s merely gave her the opportunity to deal with the threat and perform the feat. The top feat in Marvel despite what route she went down to achieve it. It was her power that pulled it off. One could argue that as Phoenix is the sum and substance of all life in Marvel that she did pull it off single-handedly 
Originally posted by Mr Master
She molded 616 in her hands, Beyonder contained an explosion that would of disintegrated the Microverse, which is a sub-atomic universe not a dimension.
That may sound insignificant but the explosion would have annihilated the Microverse, then on a molecular level would have spilled into adjacent realities(universes)and would have destroyed them too including 616 which is a neighbor to the Microverse according to Scion. In fact he really only saved them because he didn't want the 616(wasn't referred to as that)to be destroyed since Dazzler existed in it, he was still in love with her you see.
Although he used saving their Universe as an excuse.
Containing a subatomic universe destroying explosion is nowhere near the level of reforming a universe in the palm of your hand atom by atom. No argument required. He performed an impressive feat and yet its still nowhere near as good as Phoenixes best so why continue to bring it up. Futile comes to mind. 
Originally posted by Mr Master
Well it was ON PANEL that Watcher bowed down to Molecule Man, since it was drawn it's verified right? When have you ever again or before seen the Watcher do that?
Since it’s drawn that the Watcher is bowed saying Molecule Man is the second most powerful in the multiverse that verifies that point? Is that really what youre saying? 😕 I refuse to believe you’re that clueless and could so completely miss the point. For your point and the Watchers comments to be verified he would have to have pulled off a feat on panel that tops all others, which would make the feat true with relation to said characters
Originally posted by Mr Master
ALL the cosmics, ALL! including Living Tribunal were drawn being in AWE of the Beyonder, begging him to not kill DEATH, and when the Molecule Man appeared, they acted like the president had just arrived, LOL.
Which merely supports Watchers comments in relation to those characters not Phoenix.
Originally posted by Mr Master
It was also ON PANEL that Beyonder was in the Beyond Realm with Molecule Man, where Molecule Man said, "here we are BEYOND ALL KNOWN EXISTENCE, the Beyond Realm."So since you only consider on panel artwork, this was drawn too, so therefore he must of surely emcompassed everything outside the Multiverse since the Multiverse was ALL known EXISTENCE back then.
The New Universe was created in October 1986, so from May 1984 to October 1986, Beyonder was everything outside the Multiverse. Just like it was conclusively proved on panel.] No mate, your point is moot.
You can lie but your problem is I have the comics, the scans, the proof.
The New Universe was introduced in October of 86', now I know your a bit derranged, but yes, that means that from Mayof 84' to OCt. of 86, Beyonder was ALL there was beyond the multiverse.
Im sorry, I forgot that the Molecule Man was omniscient and not a factory worker.😉
This is another case of you accepting character claims as the truth without question regardless of their being events/instances which conclusively dismiss the points theyre making. Prior to the retcon which depowered Beyonder and MM the New Universe was introduced and that’s the crux of the matter. There are references which state that he was a universe that lies beyond the multiverse. A realm called the Beyond Realm where he was all. You have interpreted such comments as meaning he was all that lies beyond the multiverse. That is supposition. Like I said in the other thread, that’s like me saying beyond England lies France. Does that mean that France is all there is beyond England? ❌ Would it be merely supposition to say based on that comment that that was the case? ✅ The point wasn’t stated so you have no reason for making it and are not justified as trying to present it here as fact. While in his pre retcon incarnation we were made aware of the New Universe which conclusively proves your notion wrong! With the introduction of the NU we as comic book readers are to treat it as if its always been there NOT that it was created in marvel creation the moment we read it in a marvel comic book. It was there during the Beyonders previous incarnation so youre outta luck mate. 
Nowhere is it stated that the Beyonder encompassed all that was outside of the Marvel multiverse. That was your interpretation of Molecule Mans words. M Man for all his power was not omniscient. He was an otherwise normal man with tremendous power. So even if the line wasn’t open to interpretation as it is given the source one would be very naïve to read that and then proclaim it as the truth in debate.
Originally posted by Mr Master
It also CLEARLY DOES NOT state that there was anything out there, that's your assumption and interpretation.it clearly states, "Beyond our own reality lies the universe of the Beyonder"
Anyone who wants to verify that, be my guess.
http://www.marveldirectory.com/otherdimensions/beyond.htm
And yet you assumed that that was all that lied beyond it. That was your mistake. During the pre retcon period we were made aware of the NU which conclusively dismisses that interpretation.
Originally posted by Mr Master
And don't even try and bring up the phrase other forums in here, when your azz has been banned from forums for straight up lies and warping facts and evidence to make yourself right.
Where has this happened? The only forum I am and ever have been a member of is this one and a celeb/sport/music gossip one. Where you got that idea from is beyond me.
Originally posted by Mr Master
You child, (you deserve this for accusing without seeing things through)
read the entire damn post before commenting and read comics other than Lucifer and X-Men and maybe your learn something.
Before I posted that cool interpretation, I clearly wrote, I READ SOMEWHERE!
Grow up son and learn to floss with something other than Beyonders jockstrap. Don’t presume to know the extent of my comic book reading. I’ll take you down on many a marvel or dc related issue.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I think that was a perfect interpretation of what it's all about.
Props due to "Lord S"
For the reasons I listed while its an admittedly decent analysis it is for the aforementioned reasons incomplete.
That’s all.
-GS
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
How I remember it Silver Surfer in one of the later issues of SW2 helped out Molecule Man in a way other than that which youre describing.
And like I said your WRONG.
And I do have the scans and I will post them now.
Here is Molecule Man ALONE, saving ALL the heroes including poor Silver Sufer and ALL the beings ACROSS the ENTIRE multiverse that were destroyed by the blast.
He first says, If he would of fought the Beyonder till his last breath, "I wouldn't have had the stregth left to shield us..."
He then tells Captain America very CLEARLY, "By the way, I also REMOVED EVERY LIVING THING from his death blast's path...They're ALL in STASIS, in SUB-SPACE! I'LL bring 'em back later, if there is a later.
Stasis - definition from webster's - a period or state of inactivity.
Sub-Space - definition from same - a space that is wholly contained in another space.
Molecule Man is no joke.
Then Captain America asks, "How are such things POSSIBLE..? It's---It's Beyond belief!
Molecule Man responds, "I transact on power levels unimaginable to you, Captain America, and the Beyonder, it seems, on levels unimaginable to Me!"
Originally posted by Mr MasterMr Master, I have a question. I have most of secret wars two but Im missing the fight with MM. What issue is it.
And like I said your WRONG.
And I do have the scans and I will post them now.Here is Molecule Man ALONE, saving ALL the heroes including poor Silver Sufer and ALL the beings ACROSS the ENTIRE multiverse that were destroyed by the blast.
He first says, If he would of fought the Beyonder till his last breath, "I wouldn't have had the stregth left to shield us..."
He then tells Captain America very CLEARLY, "By the way, I also REMOVED EVERY LIVING THING from his death blast's path...They're ALL in STASIS, in SUB-SPACE! I'LL bring 'em back later, if there is a later.
Stasis - definition from webster's - a period or state of inactivity.
Sub-Space - definition from same - a space that is wholly contained in another space.Molecule Man is no joke.
Then Captain America asks, "How are such things POSSIBLE..? It's---It's Beyond belief!
Molecule Man responds, "I transact on power levels unimaginable to you, Captain America, and the Beyonder, it seems, on levels unimaginable to Me!"
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
She needed a physical anchor so she could apply her power. She wasn’t given power by the X-men, she wasn’t aided in energising and reweaving the stasis fields that contained “power absolute” according to the comics. Those actions were the biggest feat in Marvel and they were achieved by her own power.
The ever common warps evidence, atleast your predictable.
Here it clearly shows that when she performed that feat it was not on her own,
"They Exist as a SINGLE ENTITY NOW, these wondrous X-MEN.
As ONE MIND and SPIRIT THEY are focused on the goal of RESTORING the Nexus of Realities to it's once-perfect condition."