Iceman's Freezing vs . . .

Started by newjak863 pages

Originally posted by leonidas
that's essentially what i said in a diffrent thread -- he affected the medium of transfer and affected the beam as a result.

your idea about scott being able to add more and more energy makes no sense though -- stranger could have done (and presumably tried) to do the same thing and the ice literally froze his eyes.

as for mag's shield -- he would indeed tightly bind the air around him, but the particles would still be in motion, though the motion would be restricted. if he can stop the stranger's beams, i see no reason why he couldn't technically freeze the shield such that someone else could break through it like glass.

jugg's shield and godblast is complicated by magic so that makes it harder to figure.

The point I was trying to make about Cyke's eyeblast was that he doesn't make the energy himself but is transeffered through him. This could mean that even Bobby was slowing down the medium the amount of energy Scott was pouring could counteract Bobby's power maybe overpowering it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iceman's Freezing vs . . .

Originally posted by Mindship
This I can live with. thumbsup Now, if we can only find a way to explain Superman's freezing breath, which I've always felt was a simple--and grossly inaccurate--exaggeration of (eg) people blowing on soup to cool it off. But that's for another thread.

The way I've always justified Superman's artic breath has it tied into the energy absorption aspect of his powerset. That being that he can by some means controllable extract heat from the air located in his lungs (Kyrptionians might be able to do such a think sans superpowers given their alien physiology) and propel it at incredible speeds do to "super" contractions of his lungs (again his alien physiology might make this possible). Of course there is the psionic explanation of his power that could also explain it.

Originally posted by Mindship

[B]Regarding the posts about freezing electromagnetic energy ...

Decreasing kinetic energy as applied to molecular motion is one thing; heck, we do it all the time when we make ice cubes. But "freezing" pure energy--energy with zero rest-mass--is a whole other ballgame. Physical laws dictate that light (eg) must move at cee--neither slower nor faster, but cee--whereas there are no laws which say you can't slow down molecular motion. Further, if light was affected by extreme cold, well gosh darn, we wouldn't see stars, the moon, or perhaps even the sun, cuz all that light would be frozen in place as soon as it got out into space.

Also (and I hope I explain this right), one must not regard "kinetic" in kinetic energy as a kind of "substance." "Kinetic" is a dynamic description; there are no "quanta of motion," whereas "electromagnetic" defines the physical nature of the energy (its "substance"😉.

Something else, now that I'm thinking of it: How, exactly, does Iceman decrease kinetic energy? While "cold" per se is not an energy, some form of energy must be slowing down the molecules. What? Could Iceman's power be essentially electromagnetic in nature? Or might it be a pure application of consciousness, thus making him psionic (or is psionic to be considered EM in nature, as I've read at times in threads)? [/B]

Sounds good to me 👆.
As for how Iceman's powers work, I'd tend to attribute it to a psionic phenomena more than anything else. You can kind of see a trend leading that way with a lot of mutants and I think it much more of an elegant solution that a real world based explanation.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iceman's Freezing vs . . .

Originally posted by TheKahn
As for how Iceman's powers work, I'd tend to attribute it to a psionic phenomena more than anything else. You can kind of see a trend leading that way with a lot of mutants and I think it much more of an elegant solution that a real world based explanation.

Quite true...until we have to start explaining how "psionics" works ermm if for no other reason than to keep it from becoming a plot device (remember: you can't spell psionic without PIS).

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iceman's Freezing vs . . .

Originally posted by Mindship
Quite true...until we have to start explaining how "psionics" works ermm if for no other reason than to keep it from becoming a plot device (remember: you can't spell psionic without PIS).

It works because writers say it does. Problem solved. 😉

I think there is a limit to just how far you can carry an attempt to justify or explain the "superpower" phenomena in comics with actual or theoretical physics and still enjoy the medium as I doubt very many of the writers and editors have put that level of consideration into it themselves. 😬

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iceman's Freezing vs . . .

Originally posted by Mindship
This I can live with. thumbsup Now, if we can only find a way to explain Superman's freezing breath, which I've always felt was a simple--and grossly inaccurate--exaggeration of (eg) people blowing on soup to cool it off. But that's for another thread.

[B]Regarding the posts about freezing electromagnetic energy ...
Decreasing kinetic energy as applied to molecular motion is one thing; heck, we do it all the time when we make ice cubes. But "freezing" pure energy--energy with zero rest-mass--is a whole other ballgame. Physical laws dictate that light (eg) must move at cee--neither slower nor faster, but cee--whereas there are no laws which say you can't slow down molecular motion. Further, if light was affected by extreme cold, well gosh darn, we wouldn't see stars, the moon, or perhaps even the sun, cuz all that light would be frozen in place as soon as it got out into space.

Also (and I hope I explain this right), one must not regard "kinetic" in kinetic energy as a kind of "substance." "Kinetic" is a dynamic description; there are no "quanta of motion," whereas "electromagnetic" defines the physical nature of the energy (its "substance"😉.

Something else, now that I'm thinking of it: How, exactly, does Iceman decrease kinetic energy? While "cold" per se is not an energy, some form of energy must be slowing down the molecules. What? Could Iceman's power be essentially electromagnetic in nature? Or might it be a pure application of consciousness, thus making him psionic (or is psionic to be considered EM in nature, as I've read at times in threads)? [/B]

i get what you're saying about kinetic energy. but what i mean is that it implies that energy exists because something is moving. if i stopped a stream of photons, i would in essence 'freeze' light. now, wave/particle duality makes this even more complex than it already is. is a photon a wave function or a particle or some combination and CAN it be 'stopped' somehow? we know it is a nonzero form of energy, hence it has mass, but does a photon (were i able to stop it from moving) actually possess a REST-mass as opposed to a simple relativistic mass based on wavelength? 😕 i don't know and the physics is too steep for me. kahn's BEC idea is interesting. but the appearance seems wrong. i could see a cloud of amorphous . . . BECs forming in a pathway and blocking the energy via interference, but crawling UP the stream of outpouring energy and literally freezing it in form and place? 😑

pis perhaps, but clearly we need to disregard real-world physics to come up with an explanation, or take speculative physics another step. it also seems he must go beyond just the ability to deal with moisture to have accomplished the task, unless we consider some way that he interfered with the stream of radiation via the medium (air) using the ambient moisture that was around him.

now, why are we bothering with the discussion? for the hell of it i guess. 😉

oh, and mindship -- i agree -- the power must be psionic in nature.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iceman's Freezing vs . . .

Originally posted by TheKahn
It works because writers say it does. Problem solved. 😉

I think there is a limit to just how far you can carry an attempt to justify or explain the "superpower" phenomena in comics with actual or theoretical physics and still enjoy the medium as I doubt very many of the writers and editors have put that level of consideration into it themselves. 😬

amen to that. 😉

Hey, some people like crossword puzzles to keep their brains sharp.

Us?
To delving into nonsense...drunk Arrrr...

Originally posted by Mindship
Hey, some people like crossword puzzles to keep their brains sharp.

Us?
To delving into nonsense...drunk Arrrr...

cheers

👽

😆

Originally posted by Blair Wind
here is the best explaination I could come up with:

Bobby Drake could be, potentially, one of the most powerful mutants on the planet. Look at his power. People say "Ooh! He makes ice." Or now, "Ooh, he turns himself into ice!"

But let's step back. Basic physics says that there's no such thing as "cold", as a quantative energy form. Only degrees of heat. "Cold" is a relative term, requiring a difference between the observed target and the temperature of the observer. Example: I'm standing in my office, at a nice 73 degrees. The cabbie outside is standing on the street, shivering in 40 degrees. To me, he is cold. Whereas if I were buried in snow (great shades of this past weekend) at around 20 degrees, I'd consider him pretty warm.

Right then, we've established that there's no such energy form as "cold". So, Bobby doesn't generate cold to form his ice, and he doesn't generate the moisture himself (imagine how quickly he'd be dehydrated). Therefore, he forms his ice structures from the ambient moisture in the environment around him. To do this, he causes the moisture to freeze.

But how? We know he doesn't "project cold", so then he must absorb or dissipate the heat. By the laws of thermodynamics, energy is constant, it cannot be created or destroyed. However, let's go to another scientific principle. Heat is a measurement of the internal kinetic energy of an object. The more those atoms and molecules are buzzing around, the hotter it is.

What Bobby Drake does, as I see it, is project a field that inhibits the motion of those particles (herein referred to as Brownian Motion) thus dropping the temperature and freezing the moisture.

However, the amount of water vapor in any given area is not consistent with the large stunts Bobby regularly pulls off (re: ice slides, ice walls, etc). If he were to coalesce that much water vapor in one place and freeze it, the humidity all along the Eastern Seaboard would drop dramatically, we'd have wildcat lightning storms all over the place, cats and dogs living together, it would be anarchy, you see my point.

So that extra frozen mass has to come from somewhere. Remember that water vapor isn't the only thing in the air. You have a mixture of all sorts of gases. One of the most prominent of these is carbon dioxide. Compared to the other prominent gases in our atmosphere (nitrogen, the most common, and oxygen), carbon dioxide has a relatively high temperature (although still incredibly low) at which it becomes solid. It is my theory that the most part of Bobby's ice structures are composed of frozen carbon dioxide, or "dry ice". This would also explain why Manhattan isn't flooded every time his ice slides melt, since most of it sublimes back into gaseous carbon dioxide.

So, what Bobby does is inhibit the Brownian Motion of objects. He can do this so quickly that there is no expansion of the target's water content, as was seen when he flash-froze Legion completely. Had he merely frozen all the moisture in Legion's body, well... put an unopened can of soda in the freezer sometime. Wait a few days. Watch the results. Legion would be a messy red chunk when he thawed.

Bobby is an incredibly powerful cryokinetic. But that's not the only extent to his powers. Since Mikhail's fiddling, he can transform his entire body into a water-based organism. In his form of homogenous ice, his thought processes go on, even though water is a MUCH less efficient conductor than neurons in the human brain. Basically, Bobby converts all the molecules of his body into water, and freezes and molds it as he moves. He has the capability to assume a completely liquid form (as Emma Frost did when in control of his body) as well as the potential ability to 'teleport' by zapping his consciousness through water vapor in the atmosphere, reforming at his desired location. In AOA, this was referred to as "moisture inversion". And through all this, he retains the ability to resume human form.

Let me get to why I think he's an Omega-class. Ever see that Star Trek:TNG episode where the alien evolved into a sentient life form? The premise was that eventually, all organic beings would 'evolve' into a more efficient sentient energy-based lifeform. We've seen some mutants that already do this.

Chamber

Malice

Shard

Onslaught

As well as some non-mutants, like the Living Laser, Living Lightning, etc. Bobby falls into this class of 'evolved' beings whose consciousness resides in an energy-based state. He just hasn't realized it yet. Canonically, we've heard it referred to multiple times that Bobby hasn't realized his full potential. Imagine what he could do with realization and training.

Create a 'giant' ice form with corresponding strength and stability.
Create and animate multiple ice forms.
Coalesce all the water vapor in an area into a superdense solid, dropping the humidity rapidly, resulting in chaotic weather effects, mass electrical storms, etc.
Acting as a catalyst for superconducting machinery (we've already seen him do this).

I still like my explaination....

😖hifty:

no on all unless this happens in the same comic that Stranger's beams got frozen. I doubt most writers would be insane enough to follow that.

Originally posted by Validus

Oh,my.

i frickin' LOVE this thread. let's add gl energy and superman's hv for sh!ts and giggles!

Originally posted by leonidas
i frickin' LOVE this thread. let's add gl energy and superman's hv for sh!ts and giggles!

GL energy is molecules, no? Also if ice can act as a shield of it, it can probably freeze too right? See for yourself:

https://www.comicextra.com/dc-marvel-all-access/chapter-4/6
https://www.comicextra.com/dc-marvel-all-access/chapter-4/11