Originally posted by TheKahn
Cyclops isn't in the line up. 😉The problem I see with Storm (and even Cyke for that matter) is the fact they would be physically vulnerable if they were focused on offensive attacks. I mean they'd have thousands of arrow coming in from almost 180 degrees and all it takes is one lucky hit. Maybe it's just me but the movie version of Storm just hasn't seemed that powerful (at least compared to the comic version). I mean wtf was that spinning around crap she was doing in the third movie? She had trouble defending herself from a single (albeit very fast) opponent. So I have my doubts about her defensive ability.
Damnit, I could've swore I saw his name in there.
Oh well, Storm has her work cut out for her then... 🙄
If these 6 X-Men used basic strategy they could pull it off.
Main Defense: Iceman
The only thing Iceman should do this entire fight is Defense, Defense, Defense. He sets up ice blockades to slow down the approaching orc army, feeding them in small numbers to the X-Men's main infantry below. Iceman puts up a series of ice walls in front of Helms Deep. These slow the orc army's progress to a crawl. It's also hard to quickly attack the X-Men's infantry when most of your advance is made over frozen ground. This allows the X-Men infantry time to regroup, rest, and prepare themselves. Bobby's other job is heavy projectiles If he can stop Sentinel Missiles and exploding cars hurled by Magneto, then he can stop ballista and catapault fire. Ice coating stops orcs from scaling walls as well. Bobby can also freeze smaller groups of orcs, giving relief to the infantry.
Main Offense: Storm
Look at X2. You did see the 50 tornados she wipped up in about 10 seconds? Even if Storm is only in the fight for 5 minutes she would decimate the orc army very badly. With Storm on the job no force of more than 20 orcs is going to get at the walls at one time. They can't attack in masses. Most are getting blown away. It's also going to be really hard to hit Storm with an arrow when she's controling hurricane force winds. Arrows are going to get blown away from her and her teamates. Only a catapult launched boulder would get through the crosswinds, and she's a very small target that can fly out of the way. Storm destroys the effectiveness of all archers.
Main Infantry: Wolverine / Colossus
Thanks to Storm a huge bulk of the army is destroyed. Thanks to Iceman, whats left has to attack in small numbers, slowly over frozen ground they are herded at the X-Men's two toughest fighters. Wolverine and Colossus are going to take on groups of 10-20 orcs a piece in slow waves. Archers can be used against them, but Colossus cant be shot and Wolverine will not be felled by arrows unless he is completely surrounded by large groups of archers. Even then, he will recover from stray crossbow bolts very quickly.
Colossus is arguably impervious to all but the largest of monsters. The trolls can knock him around and the Elephants/Mastadons can stomp him, but even they might not be able to put him down for good. Colossus' only downside is that he's slow. Some orcs will get past him to the walls and others will be able to dogpile him.
Wolverine is going to be a killing machine. He's going to take down his enemies fast and they wont get back up. He'll take his lumps, but every strike he lands will instantly result in a dead orc. Swords that do hit him, will most likely break on his bones. The small groups of orcs will get a handful of hits against him, but his healing factor ensures that he wont get tired and will be nearly fully healed in between charges. Wolverine will probably take out his foes faster than Colossus and be able to help his slower team mate when he gets glomped by orcs. Colossus hurls off a dozen orcs and Wolverine sticks them before they can get up. Wolverine will be able to cripple trolls fairly easily, making them sitting ducks for Colossus.
If these two have time they can take out ringwraiths on wyverns or dragons (whatever they were) very quick. Colossus can also throw Wolverine at the elephants, allowing Wolverine to decimate the elephant handlers and use the elephant against the orcs, or simply cut open it's skull and put it down.
Back-Up Infantry: Beast / Kitty
Kitty's biggest downfall is that she can't take people out as quickly as Colossus and Wolverine. Too many can get past her to the walls. Beast is great for melee fights, but he can be hurt and when he does get hit he wont get up like Wolverine and Colossus.
Beast jumps into the fray when Colossus or Wolverine get over run. He's faster than both of them and can go to who ever needs more help. He also runs down those who slip between the cracks and charge the walls. Beast can also range around in the ice obstacles, picking off archers and groups of 5 or less orcs.
Kitty can't be hurt. Her job is stopping the heavy hitters from hurting Wolverine and Colossus. Trolls get phased into the ground and Elephant harnesses fall right off the beasts. Without direction their use is limited.
Kitty also takes apart siege engines. Siege towers halt or topple when wheels are phased off. Battering rams are useless when the ram phases through the door, or falls off the track. Catapaults and Ballista explode apart when key support beams are phased. Ladders are phased when Orcs try to climb them and they wind up falling down the walls to their deaths.Kitty stops the army from doing actual damage to Helms Deep itself and getting inside.
Kitty can also help Colossus and Wolverine like Beast, but her purpose is different. Colossus can be phased right out of huge dogpiles instantly. Wolverine and Beast evade projectiles with ease. Hold onto Kitty everyone. I never saw movie Kitty phase anyone's lungs out of their body. I don't doubt she could do it, but even so, she serves a purpose either way.
Originally posted by Soljer
You make good points, and I cannot argue with you about Iceman. Who knows? But you cannot assume that he CAN'T ice up at will, and neither can I assume that he CAN. Regardless, as I pointed out, it doesn't matter, the rest of the Xmen could take this easy.Oh, and as far as kitty goes, you're right here again. This isn't the ninja kitty, nor the one we see from the comics. But we don't know that she CAN'T do exactly what I said - phase through while ripping up their insides. So who knows? Still a moot point from what we know about the others.
Colossus could be hurled from the battlefield, but whats to stop him from walking back? As far as this battle is concerned, he is indestructable. Even if EVERYONE else is killed, colossus just cannot be harmed by these foes. And what are they to do if storm flies into the air, out of range of arrows, and just rains hell?
It would take time, but they could eventually clear the field.
While I'm still not totally convinced that the X-men could win, you and others have made valid points on their behalf. The most convincing argument I heard is Storm using her tornadoes to take out the invaders. The only problem with that is she wouldn't be able to take out the Uruks closest to Helms Deep's walls as she would risk taking out her own teammates. Which means that there would be several hundred enemies still firing arrows as well as, I assume, the siege machines in the rear attempting to hit her before the tornadoes get them. And as all they need is one lucky shot, I just don't know if it isn't more likely that she'd eventually get hit rather than her being able to launch such a massive offensive attack while completely defending herself given she had trouble with Psylocke in the last movie.
As for Kitty, while she could be quite devastating I'd wager that eventually she'd either tire or make a rookie mistake and end up with a sword in her head. As for colossus, while he is very durable I think that given the massive amount of heavy debris around the battle field that it isn't too unreasonable to imagine that such debris couldn't be used to immobilize him. I mean 6 X-Men versus an army of thousands is a tall order and I just have a hard time seeing the movie versions clearing this. Now if it was the comic versions and they had the Blair Winder version of Iceman then that would be a different story...😖hifty:
Originally posted by riceroost
If these 6 X-Men used basic strategy they could pull it off.Main Defense: Iceman
The only thing Iceman should do this entire fight is Defense, Defense, Defense. He sets up ice blockades to slow down the approaching orc army, feeding them in small numbers to the X-Men's main infantry below. Iceman puts up a series of ice walls in front of Helms Deep. These slow the orc army's progress to a crawl. It's also hard to quickly attack the X-Men's infantry when most of your advance is made over frozen ground. This allows the X-Men infantry time to regroup, rest, and prepare themselves. Bobby's other job is heavy projectiles If he can stop Sentinel Missiles and exploding cars hurled by Magneto, then he can stop ballista and catapault fire. Ice coating stops orcs from scaling walls as well. Bobby can also freeze smaller groups of orcs, giving relief to the infantry.
Main Offense: Storm
Look at X2. You did see the 50 tornados she wipped up in about 10 seconds? Even if Storm is only in the fight for 5 minutes she would decimate the orc army very badly. With Storm on the job no force of more than 20 orcs is going to get at the walls at one time. They can't attack in masses. Most are getting blown away. It's also going to be really hard to hit Storm with an arrow when she's controling hurricane force winds. Arrows are going to get blown away from her and her teamates. Only a catapult launched boulder would get through the crosswinds, and she's a very small target that can fly out of the way. Storm destroys the effectiveness of all archers.
Main Infantry: Wolverine / Colossus
Thanks to Storm a huge bulk of the army is destroyed. Thanks to Iceman, whats left has to attack in small numbers, slowly over frozen ground they are herded at the X-Men's two toughest fighters. Wolverine and Colossus are going to take on groups of 10-20 orcs a piece in slow waves. Archers can be used against them, but Colossus cant be shot and Wolverine will not be felled by arrows unless he is completely surrounded by large groups of archers. Even then, he will recover from stray crossbow bolts very quickly.
Colossus is arguably impervious to all but the largest of monsters. The trolls can knock him around and the Elephants/Mastadons can stomp him, but even they might not be able to put him down for good. Colossus' only downside is that he's slow. Some orcs will get past him to the walls and others will be able to dogpile him.
Wolverine is going to be a killing machine. He's going to take down his enemies fast and they wont get back up. He'll take his lumps, but every strike he lands will instantly result in a dead orc. Swords that do hit him, will most likely break on his bones. The small groups of orcs will get a handful of hits against him, but his healing factor ensures that he wont get tired and will be nearly fully healed in between charges. Wolverine will probably take out his foes faster than Colossus and be able to help his slower team mate when he gets glomped by orcs. Colossus hurls off a dozen orcs and Wolverine sticks them before they can get up. Wolverine will be able to cripple trolls fairly easily, making them sitting ducks for Colossus.
If these two have time they can take out ringwraiths on wyverns or dragons (whatever they were) very quick. Colossus can also throw Wolverine at the elephants, allowing Wolverine to decimate the elephant handlers and use the elephant against the orcs, or simply cut open it's skull and put it down.
Back-Up Infantry: Beast / Kitty
Kitty's biggest downfall is that she can't take people out as quickly as Colossus and Wolverine. Too many can get past her to the walls. Beast is great for melee fights, but he can be hurt and when he does get hit he wont get up like Wolverine and Colossus.
Beast jumps into the fray when Colossus or Wolverine get over run. He's faster than both of them and can go to who ever needs more help. He also runs down those who slip between the cracks and charge the walls. Beast can also range around in the ice obstacles, picking off archers and groups of 5 or less orcs.
Kitty can't be hurt. Her job is stopping the heavy hitters from hurting Wolverine and Colossus. Trolls get phased into the ground and Elephant harnesses fall right off the beasts. Without direction their use is limited.
Kitty also takes apart siege engines. Siege towers halt or topple when wheels are phased off. Battering rams are useless when the ram phases through the door, or falls off the track. Catapaults and Ballista explode apart when key support beams are phased. Ladders are phased when Orcs try to climb them and they wind up falling down the walls to their deaths.Kitty stops the army from doing actual damage to Helms Deep itself and getting inside.
Kitty can also help Colossus and Wolverine like Beast, but her purpose is different. Colossus can be phased right out of huge dogpiles instantly. Wolverine and Beast evade projectiles with ease. Hold onto Kitty everyone. I never saw movie Kitty phase anyone's lungs out of their body. I don't doubt she could do it, but even so, she serves a purpose either way.
Ok last time i checked there were no Trolls, siege towers, ring wraiths, or any of the other creatures you mentioned at Helms Deep. All there was at Helms Deep was 10,000 Urukai armed with heavy crossbows, shields, swords, catapult thingys, and one giant explosive device created by Saruman. This battle might be won by the X-men if they do exaclty like you said with the whole strategy thing, but if they dont i think they can be overwhelmed for at least a few mintues, and thats all it would take fo them to reach inside which results in a loss for the X-Men since they would of failed in DEFENDING the keep.
Originally posted by nimbus006
Ok last time i checked there were no Trolls, siege towers, ring wraiths, or any of the other creatures you mentioned at Helms Deep. All there was at Helms Deep was 10,000 Urukai armed with heavy crossbows, shields, swords, catapult thingys, and one giant explosive device created by Saruman. This battle might be won by the X-men if they do exaclty like you said with the whole strategy thing, but if they dont i think they can be overwhelmed for at least a few mintues, and thats all it would take fo them to reach inside which results in a loss for the X-Men since they would of failed in DEFENDING the keep.
I belive he's getting Helms deep confused with the Battle for gondor ?
Originally posted by grey fox
I belive he's getting Helms deep confused with the Battle for gondor ?
Correct, but that battle is a completely different story. With the power of the Nazgul and 200,000 Orcs with at least a dozen war Trolls, giant Catapults, and Siege Towers there is no way those X-Men from the movie are defending the White City.
Originally posted by TheKahn
Now if it was the comic versions and they had the Blair Wind version of Iceman then that would be a different story...😖hifty:
Originally posted by Validus
Quit trying to bring Blair Wind's Iceman into this. 😛
😱 😆 💃 Two mentions
anyways Kahn you mentioned that Storm had trouble with one very fast girl. In my opinion Storms powers are more useful in mass combat (her vs a bunch of other people) than a single target. She could whip up a few tornados, lighting, ect.
With that said.....the movie X-men Suck...they lose
Colossus is an interesting factor in this fight. In the movie we really didn't see any of his limits. It's at all possible that he is as strong and durable as his comic counterpart. I really don't see what any group or thing in mordor could do to him. collosus could be their himself and take them all out. rice roost stratigy should be enough.
Originally posted by MrHeavySilence
They can definitely do it. Iceman builds a gigantic ice maze around Helms Deep for MILES.http://invisiblethreads.com/potd_i/2005_02/20050222.jpg
http://invisiblethreads.com/potd_i/2005_02/20050218.jpgStorm flies up in the sky to see visual. Colossus bulldozes a large trench around Helms deep after the large ice enclosure.
They'll never even get to Helms Deep. Eventually, the six mutants will mow all those orcs down.
Yep. The only one who could be vunerable is Beast, becuase he can't take the same amount of damage up close as Logan. But, the great defense given by Iceman, Storm and Shadowcat will highly complement the offense by Wolverine and Colossus, who'll blaze a path through the Uruk-Hai.
