ANH Kenobi vs RotS Kenobi.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Do we have any proof that ANH Kenobi is actually better at saber combat? No. We dont.

As I recall GL said that the PT is when we'll see real saber duels, cause everyone in the PT is outta practice and old, crippled, or an untrained padawan.

Well, something you 'recall' doesnt have much worth. You need to give a link or something that proves that this quote actually exists.

My argument is based on common sense...the older you get, the more attunement to the force you receive. Attunement to the force also improves lightsaber skill. Force power and lightsaber skill have always been strongly tied together.

The argument, 'ANH Obi wan is old and slow' doesnt cut it, because you can enhance your speed and agility with the force. Obvious example: Yoda.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
The argument, 'ANH Obi wan is old and slow' doesnt cut it, because you can enhance your speed and agility with the force. Obvious example: Yoda.

And I suppose the argument I provided doesn't mean jack? Saber to saber combat, having to keep up with your skills, and put them to the test against the best of the era, etc.

Your expostulation that he's grown with the Force, so he pwns is a strong enough argument? How much as he improved?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
And I suppose the argument I provided doesn't mean jack? Saber to saber combat, having to keep up with your skills, and put them to the test against the best of the era, etc.

Your expostulation that he's grown with the Force, so he pwns is a strong enough argument? How much as he improved?

1. Well firstly, Jedi dont just 'forget' what they have learned just because they havent been in combat for awhile. Not that Obi wan has just been sitting on his ass the whole time either, Obi wan was receiving training from Qui gons ghost during his time on tatooine.

2. Theoretically, if Obi wan improved *any* amount then he would be able to defeat his ROTS version. But to satisfy the debate:

-ROTS took place at 19 BBY

-ANH took place at 0 BBY

So Obi wan has grown in the force for approximately 20 years.

GV is right in this instance

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1. Well firstly, Jedi dont just 'forget' what they have learned just because they havent been in combat for awhile. Not that Obi wan has just been sitting on his ass the whole time either, Obi wan was receiving training from Qui gons ghost during his time on tatooine.

If you take a break from using a sword for a year, will you be more proficient when you pick it up the next year? Or the day you put it down? As I've said, it's clear Ben isn't a slouch in lightsaber combat even after the years, but it is also clear that there is no way he was putting it to the test as he was twenty years ago.

Constant saber to saber combat won't make you the better duelist? Practicing every day with other people, droids, and the like? Facing off against the best of the era? True that the Jedi don't forget their skills, but they do diminish if you don't keep up with them as well as you did when you were younger. Obi-Wan was combat ready, and facing off against the best - Ben was not.

But I suppose just "meditating with Qui-Gon for nineteen years" is sufficient enough to be equal to your counterpart that is in constant action with a lightsaber, eh?

2. Theoretically, if Obi wan improved *any* amount then he would be able to defeat his ROTS version. But to satisfy the debate:

-ROTS took place at 19 BBY

-ANH took place at 0 BBY

So Obi wan has grown in the force for approximately 20 years.

Sadly, that doesn't tell me how much he has grown - he's grown for 20 years. Okay. How much has he grown in the Force? I.e. "Doubled in power since the last time we've met" - Anakin, etc.

Either way, even if you give an estimate or approx. amount, just improving in the Force or having a better Force proficiency alone will not make you the better duelist. And like I said, the fact Obi-Wan was keeping up with his saber skills because of the dangers he's faced, it's hard to think that ANH Obi-Wan would be greater.

Originally posted by Count Kent
GV is right in this instance

And I care who you agree with? If anything, it only makes them look bad.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
If you take a break from using a sword for a year, will you be more proficient when you pick it up the next year? Or the day you put it down? As I've said, it's clear Ben isn't a slouch in lightsaber combat even after the years, but it is also clear that there is no way he was putting it to the test as he was twenty years ago.

Constant saber to saber combat won't make you the better duelist? Practicing every day with other people, droids, and the like? Facing off against the best of the era? True that the Jedi don't forget their skills, but they do diminish if you don't keep up with them as well as you did when you were younger. Obi-Wan was combat ready, and facing off against the best - Ben was not.

But I suppose just "meditating with Qui-Gon for nineteen years" is sufficient enough to be equal to your counterpart that is in constant action with a lightsaber, eh?

Sadly, that doesn't tell me how much he has grown - he's grown for 20 years. Okay. How much has he grown in the Force? I.e. "Doubled in power since the last time we've met" - Anakin, etc.

Either way, even if you give an estimate or approx. amount, just improving in the Force or having a better Force proficiency alone will not make you the better duelist. And like I said, the fact Obi-Wan was keeping up with his saber skills because of the dangers he's faced, it's hard to think that ANH Obi-Wan would be greater.

And I care who you agree with? If anything, it only makes them look bad.

1. Well, these are jedi we are talking about, not average people. For instance: Yoda has sat on his ass for most of his life, but when the time comes for battle he seems pretty sharp to me. ANH Ben has been through all the rigors that his ROTS version has been through, and its unlikely he just 'forgot' all the skills he got from them.

And Qui gon taught him things that he could never learn from simply practicing his lightsaber moves, so yes I would consider that atleast equal to any advantage ROTS Obi wan has if not far greater.

2. What? So you want me to give you a mathematical value eh? Lets not get too picky here. Its obvious that an added 20 years would greatly increase your force attunement.

Your starting to get hostile, Motoko Sama. It's not practial to say theat Obi-Wan went out of practice for he was suppost to train Luke Skywalker to fight Darth Vader and Darth Sidious. Getting out of practice would doom the entire galaxy. For example; If you were planning train someone for a martial arts tournament in 20 years, would stop using it up until that person was ready to train? That's foolhardy! If any besides keeping in shape, you'd likely learn MORE. Same with ANH Kenobi. Would he stop being a Jedi for twenty years, then pick up an apprintice and expect him to come out properly trained? Both Yoda and Kenobi had planned for one of them to train either Luke or Leia to stop a Galactic Empire(not exactly the school bully). Staying out of practice would be a death wish.

I completely agree with GV and Xep.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1. Well, these are jedi we are talking about, not average people. For instance: Yoda has sat on his ass for most of his life, but when the time comes for battle he seems pretty sharp to me. ANH Ben has been through all the rigors that his ROTS version has been through, and its unlikely he just 'forgot' all the skills he got from them.

And Qui gon taught him things that he could never learn from simply practicing his lightsaber moves, so yes I would consider that atleast equal to any advantage ROTS Obi wan has if not far greater.

2. What? So you want me to give you a mathematical value eh? Lets not get too picky here. Its obvious that an added 20 years would greatly increase your force attunement.

I'm pretty sure Yoda didn't just "sit on his ass" ALL Jedi have sparring matches to keep up their skills, Yoda would have too in the PT era. The fact is that while your giving these "examples" of older people who are good at saber combat, none of them are non-PT era, except for Obi-Wan. And all the other "older-good duelists" would have been practicing extensively (like Dooku) to keep up their saber skills. So really your "Dooku is old and is good with a saber, so Ben should be too" doesn't hold up, because all the Old Jedi/ Sith your giving examples of would have been practicing for battle, Ben would not have been. So was it the force or their training? Impossible to tell.

While the force gives you mobility, it doesn't "give" you saber skill. That you have to do yourself. If the force just "magically" gave people saber skills then all Jedi (using the same Form) would be equal. Some people are just better at dueling. And they get better from practicing, the force gives them insight, and mobility, but its still up to the Jedi to have kept up their "sword savvy".

The force heightens your "reflexes", and you potential as a duelist. Better Reflexes better fighter. I understand what you mean about the training, but the force is what all jedi depend on. you can only get better as a duelist with the force. as yoda said; "A Jedi's strength flows from the force". While practice can play a part, the amount of force within the individual matters most.

Thats true, to a degree, but if your "reflexes" are amazing and your skill sucks (from lack of training) your going to get beat, really really fast.

Reflexes do not equal a good duelist. Seeing and moving through the force do not equal a good duelist (alone). Again, if it did then Jedi wouldn't even HAVE saber styles, they'd just pick up a lightsaber and "trust the force" but they don't.

And Kenobi has been spending time hunting down Krayt Dragons, saving Jedi and battling Sand People. He isn't terribly out of shape.

Yes, but he is outta shape when it comes to saber to saber combat.

AotC Dooku was good with his saber, and who was he practicing with? Greivous? At that point in time? Barely, if any at all. He didn't seem dusty at all.

we do however have proof that he is old.jk.
ANH obiwan has mastered soresu, unlike obiwan. ANH obiwan, if he died, would just come back and kill him fromt he nether world.

Yaddle was stuck in a pit for 100 years. She whooped some monster dark side thingy's ass when she escaped.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Well, something you 'recall' doesnt have much worth. You need to

The argument, 'ANH Obi wan is old and slow' doesnt cut it, because you can enhance your speed and agility with the force. Obvious example: Yoda.

Indeed..

Define: Enhance: "To increase the spiritual proerties of an object. For instance to make something or someone stronger, faster, or smarter."

If Obi1 is in his thirties and uses the force to enhance his at that point good athletics skills lets say some 300-800 %?. Okay so about 8 times. So Obi1 at that point has his Standard physical condition 100 young, healthy, fit.

100* 8 = 800. So he can do 8 times the stuff he could do without the Force.

Then Obi1 goes to exile... His physical attributes diminish to 30. He is getting older and somewhat weaker and slower. However his Force abilities have grown and he can enhance his abilities 600 - 1200 %?

So 30 * 12 = 360

Even with 2000 % he could only score

30 * 20 = 600.

So If the Force works this way, he should be getting weaker.

Yoda on the other hand is just a damn Force god, who relies solely on that stuff to keep himself going.

Of course nothing in my post is declared as a fact, but just wanted to give a theory... Yea. 💃

The key in my post is that the Force only ENHANCES the existing physical qualities. It doesn't provide them.

"If you come with nothing, you leave with nothing"

Look at Dooku. He is no fatty. I would say he has rather good physique for a guy in his age. Palpatine on the other hand has much greater Force power. As does Yoda.

Dooku could probably take ROTS Sidious actually.

In a concrete fight propably.

But on the paper I doubt it.

Dooku could probably take ROTS Sidious actually.

Uh huh. And that's why Sidious was the master and Dooku was scared shitless of him?.