Superman vs 100,000 Daxamites

Originally posted by Validus
Partially but it has more to do with the fact that Surfer has more ways to beat Superman than Thanos. Thanos is basically brute force while Norrin is so much more.

that's actually a pretty astute point. i don't exactly agree with it, but it does seem to be the case. the reason i disagree is because i think thanos is further above superman in most areas than ss is.

here's a little conversation piece. this is how i would rank them relative to each other in some important areas:

strength: thanos>supes>ss
intelligence: thanos>>supes>ss
durability: thanos>>ss/supes
energy: thanos>>ss>>supes
speed (travel): ss>>supes>>>thanos (no teleporting)
speed (combat): supes/ss>>>thanos (ss does not have many combat feats to his name)
intangibles: supes>ss>thanos

intangibles are what i consider the ability to call down some consistently displayed feat that many consider pis of some sort. ie--if supes blitzed thanos and took him to the sun, his chances of winning go way up. ss may be able to put supes into his surfboard. supes may be able to trap ss in t-vo land. thanos may use his inconsistent matter manip and change them both to stone!

now, it's important to note: i am using superman at what i think are his most consistently seen feat levels and using his most consistently viewed powers. i know he can perhaps summon others (t-vo, stress-induced increases of power) but i'm putting those things under the intangibles.

as regards ss: lots of people think ss easily beats supes. i do not. i think eventually ss would win IF he used his speed to stay away from supes and used energy drain or k-nite, but it's a silly way to win a fight though hard to counter in an argument. eventually, doing that, supes would weaken and ss could beat him but it would take a long while. people in ss's corner consistently forget some of the CRAZY feats supes has done while: being blasted by k-nite, while having k-nite flowing through his BLOODSTREAM, while under a red sun, while battling uber-powerful magic-users. ss wouldn't simply blast him and win. he'd need to fight very smart and use all his speed. even then, if t-vo comes into play, i really don't see how ss counteracts it. and ss HAS been put down with physical force before. wm thor and thanos have both done it. ss would win imo if he fought very smart (and very differently from his usual style) but it wouldn't be a quick win, or a pretty one. glads stalemated ss when ss didn't use his weakness against him. i see no reason supes couldn't do something very similar depending on the style of fight.

so, what do y'all think? 😄

You're wrong. I'm right. Deal with it.

😛

I wouldn't put Superman anywhere near as intelligent as Surfer. For surfer to do many of the things he does with the pc, he has to be a genius. Intelligence, i'd put SS over Superman.

Speed, he far outclasses him as well.
Surfer also has the thinking speed to match if not surpass supermans speedblitz.
Energy projection, superman isn't even in the ballpark.
Strength, i know Superman is stronger. But if Surfer hits him, every bone in my body tells me superman would feel it acutely.

And why do people seem to believe that various highpowered blasts of PC wouldn't be enough to put Superman down?? Why must Surfer resort to knite??

Imo, Surfer wins simply for the same reasons Superman has hulks number. He's leagues faster, as if not more durable, energy projection is insane in comparison. Like i said before...For these reasons, Superman should always beat hulk. Why the difference now??
And since T-vo is such a power that its vague and unknown, and only appeared under one writer, i don't put stock in its ability to turn the overwhelming tide. Until it becomes a staple in the powerset, and appears under various writers, its kinda relegated to the Spiderman talking to other spiders thing.....Infamous and best forgotten.

That was alot to read.....disgust

I seriously don't think T-vo would work on Surfer or Thanos.Leo you bring up the K-nite weakness thing,that's not the only way Surfer would beat Supes that's just way easier.

Supes is just a strong guy who flies really fast his other powers would be pretty useless against any of the two.

Originally posted by UniOmni
I wouldn't put Superman anywhere near as intelligent as Surfer. For surfer to do many of the things he does with the pc, he has to be a genius. Intelligence, i'd put SS over Superman.

Speed, he far outclasses him as well.
Surfer also has the thinking speed to match if not surpass supermans speedblitz.
Energy projection, superman isn't even in the ballpark.
Strength, i know Superman is stronger. But if Surfer hits him, every bone in my body tells me superman would feel it acutely.

And why do people seem to believe that various highpowered blasts of PC wouldn't be enough to put Superman down?? Why must Surfer resort to knite??

Imo, Surfer wins simply for the same reasons Superman has hulks number. He's leagues faster, as if not more durable, energy projection is insane in comparison. Like i said before...For these reasons, Superman should always beat hulk. Why the difference now??
And since T-vo is such a power that its vague and unknown, and only appeared under one writer, i don't put stock in its ability to turn the overwhelming tide. Until it becomes a staple in the powerset, and appears under various writers, its kinda relegated to the Spiderman talking to other spiders thing.....Infamous and best forgotten.

Originally posted by UniOmni
I wouldn't put Superman anywhere near as intelligent as Surfer. For surfer to do many of the things he does with the pc, he has to be a genius. Intelligence, i'd put SS over Superman.

Speed, he far outclasses him as well.
Surfer also has the thinking speed to match if not surpass supermans speedblitz.
Energy projection, superman isn't even in the ballpark.
Strength, i know Superman is stronger. But if Surfer hits him, every bone in my body tells me superman would feel it acutely.

And why do people seem to believe that various highpowered blasts of PC wouldn't be enough to put Superman down?? Why must Surfer resort to knite??

Imo, Surfer wins simply for the same reasons Superman has hulks number. He's leagues faster, as if not more durable, energy projection is insane in comparison. Like i said before...For these reasons, Superman should always beat hulk. Why the difference now??
And since T-vo is such a power that its vague and unknown, and only appeared under one writer, i don't put stock in its ability to turn the overwhelming tide. Until it becomes a staple in the powerset, and appears under various writers, its kinda relegated to the Spiderman talking to other spiders thing.....Infamous and best forgotten.

yah, was a bit gs-like, skeets, sorry . . .

anyway, skeets made reference to supes intelligence already, so i don't need to get into that. as for blasts -- ss's blasts have nothing on the many many blasts and high level energy attacks supes as taken already. they're nothing 'new'. would they hurt? sure. but it's not like supes is slow either. he can absorb helladamage and dodge like crazy. i don't think a straight blast-em-up fight would be something ss would necessarily win. i also think you're wrong about the energy comparison. at least you're seeing it differently than i am. supes has used his vision to affect planets. that's a significant display of power. ss's is greater in magnitude, i agree, but i wouldn't say overwhelmingly greater in magnitude. ss doesn't go much beyond the planetary level himself. where ss has an obvious huge advantage is in the RANGE of his energy abilities. he can obviously do a lot more with his power, but again, i don't see the magnitude of it being enough to ensure he'd beat supes bby blasting him. that's what i was gauging in my comparison. i think he'd need to be a lot more creative than simple blasts to ensure a win. does that make more sense? 😮

as far as t-vo skeets -- i sort of feel the same way, but avalon has shown some pretty impressive scans so it's hard to discount completely, though i admit it DOES smack a bit of pis power . . .

but, now you have me curious -- how else would ss beat him if k-nite is the 'easy' way? 😖hifty:

Even if the pc won't kill him at first, enough blasts, and Superman will go down. Lets say Surfer can tamper with his aura, without that, his durability is no longer as uber. And surfer has the speed and mobility to do so for a long time. He can simply outlast him.

Or siphon the solar energy from superman
Or expose him to red sun radiation

Originally posted by UniOmni
Even if the pc won't kill him at first, enough blasts, and Superman will go down. Lets say Surfer can tamper with his aura, without that, his durability is no longer as uber. And surfer has the speed and mobility to do so for a long time. He can simply outlast him.

if he can tamper with it. i agree it seems likely, but not for certain. if he can then you're right.

like i said -- i DO think ss wins. just not as easily as some, and i think supes COULD beat him. but not the majority at all. 😬

Supes could beat Surfer a few times but certainly not the majority.
Half the time Surfer considers his enemies nothing more then just an annoyance too him.

The sad thing is...That if Surfer was remorseless, and willing to go the distance, he'd house 99.99% of the Superhero populace in comics. Solar and others similar are the exception. Since Solar is pretty much Surfer squared.

The only reason this is a debate at all, is because Marvel writes Surfer as a dolt in battle. Superman is a pacifist, but he is also one of the most capable heroes out there.

Every top tier is written like a dolt most of the time. Some more than others.

Well at least Surfer fans got their prayers answered just recently in Annihilation SS#3. It seemed a power up and Big G gave him the will to do what he must.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's actually a pretty astute point. i don't exactly agree with it, but it does seem to be the case. the reason i disagree is because i think thanos is further above superman in most areas than ss is.

here's a little conversation piece. this is how i would rank them relative to each other in some important areas:

strength: thanos>supes>ss
intelligence: thanos>>supes>ss
durability: thanos>>ss/supes
energy: thanos>>ss>>supes
speed (travel): ss>>supes>>>thanos (no teleporting)
speed (combat): supes/ss>>>thanos (ss does not have many combat feats to his name)
intangibles: supes>ss>thanos

intangibles are what i consider the ability to call down some consistently displayed feat that many consider pis of some sort. ie--if supes blitzed thanos and took him to the sun, his chances of winning go way up. ss may be able to put supes into his surfboard. supes may be able to trap ss in t-vo land. thanos may use his inconsistent matter manip and change them both to stone!

now, it's important to note: i am using superman at what i think are his most consistently seen feat levels and using his most consistently viewed powers. i know he can perhaps summon others (t-vo, stress-induced increases of power) but i'm putting those things under the intangibles.

as regards ss: lots of people think ss easily beats supes. i do not. i think eventually ss would win IF he used his speed to stay away from supes and used energy drain or k-nite, but it's a silly way to win a fight though hard to counter in an argument. eventually, doing that, supes would weaken and ss could beat him but it would take a long while. people in ss's corner consistently forget some of the CRAZY feats supes has done while: being blasted by k-nite, while having k-nite flowing through his BLOODSTREAM, while under a red sun, while battling uber-powerful magic-users. ss wouldn't simply blast him and win. he'd need to fight very smart and use all his speed. even then, if t-vo comes into play, i really don't see how ss counteracts it. and ss HAS been put down with physical force before. wm thor and thanos have both done it. ss would win imo if he fought very smart (and very differently from his usual style) but it wouldn't be a quick win, or a pretty one. glads stalemated ss when ss didn't use his weakness against him. i see no reason supes couldn't do something very similar depending on the style of fight.

so, what do y'all think? 😄

As usual, a well thought out addition to the forum. However, I'm inclined to disagree a bit. Here is how I see it.

strength: Supes>Thanos>ss - Supes simply has the best feats in this area.
intelligence: Thanos>>supes>ss - Can't have a good villain if he can't plan...
durability: Thanos=Supes>>ss - Both Thanos and Supes have fought through some incredible beatings.
energy: ss>>Thanos=supes - SS is by far the most diverse here.
speed (travel): ss>>supes>>>thanos (no teleporting)
speed (combat): supes/ss>>>thanos (ss does not have many combat feats to his name)
intangibles: supes>ss>thanos

And people, please stop trying to downplay T-vo, he's already beaten a Surfer style character with it (rather easily) once he started to master it, and beaten a n above skyfather level character with it as well.

I shouldn't have to argue the same point every thread after people agree with it. Even I agree it's somewhat of a PIS power, but then again, these 3 characters are PIS masters to begin with.

The stats are rather close and evened out in some way, on any given day any one of these characters should be able to take one another out depending on the circumstances.

SS playing with radiation and trying to drain Supes is not as effective a weapon as most would like to make it. Major Force certainly learned that the hard way.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
As usual, a well thought out addition to the forum. However, I'm inclined to disagree a bit. Here is how I see it.

strength: Supes>Thanos>ss
intelligence: Thanos>>supes>ss
durability: Thanos=Supes>>ss
energy: ss>>Thanos=supes
speed (travel): ss>>supes>>>thanos (no teleporting)
speed (combat): supes/ss>>>thanos (ss does not have many combat feats to his name)
intangibles: supes>ss>thanos

And people, please stop trying to downplay T-vo, he's already beaten a Surfer style character with it (rather easily) once he started to master it, and beaten a n above skyfather level character with it as well.

I shouldn't have to argue the same point every thread after people agree with it. Even I agree it's somewhat of a PIS power, but then again, these 3 characters are PIS masters to begin with.

The stats are rather close and evened out in some way, on any given day any one of these characters should be able to take one another out depending on the circumstances.

SS playing with radiation and trying to drain Supes is not as effective a weapon as most would like to make it. Major Force certainly learned that the hard way.

Avy, i just gotta disagree with this a little.

Strengthwise, Thanos trumps Superman by a far margin. Drax, who took apart stars, was knocked aside along with Hulk, by Thanos. Superman can knock Hulk aside like that, if he's not enraged, but not Drax. Never Drax, without an external powerup.

Durability, Thanos is a league above Superman. Thanos survived the crush of a blackhole, and while worse for wear, he survived. Superman flees blackholes at his fastest speeds. And while Surfer has his low showings, his average puts him on par, if not slightly superior to Superman.

Combat speed only truely matters, if the one with it, is faster than the opponent. As in, can do whatever they want at their own leisure. Thats the cruelty of the speedblitz. When someone can't match the speeds, they are at the whim of the speedster. Surfer shouldn't be touched by Superman. At all. So the combat speed issue is kinda moot. Especially since Surfers not the slugfest type.
DragonBallz is an excellent example of what i mean. Those who are slower, are finished at the whim of the faster.

And my gripe with Tvo is its vague description. When people say, T-vo = Superman wins, my question is how? What does he do that the pc can't possibly counteract?? When those questions are answered, then i'll take it seriously. Thats kinda like someone saying, PC = Surfer wins. Thats no way to debate.

And while MF may have tried, MF is no Surfer. Thats like saying Hulk stomped and hit on Surfer to no effect. Hulk is no superman.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Avy, i just gotta disagree with this a little.

No prob. If we all agreed on everything, it would be quite the boring forum!

Originally posted by UniOmni
Strengthwise, Thanos trumps Superman by a far margin. Drax, who took apart stars, was knocked aside along with Hulk, by Thanos. Superman can knock Hulk aside like that, if he's not enraged, but not Drax. Never Drax, without an external powerup.

Knocking him off balance does not count as a strength feat, and Drax has not shown that kind of power in years if ever. If those kinds of feats will be counted, then PC Darkseid feats are fair game as well, and thats an UGLY can of worms since neither Thanos or Drax do not compare to him on ANY level. Whether people like it or not Superman has beaten him and it's the same Darkseid. Superman also has far more showings that Thanos in this area, the entire league jumping him and trying to use kryptonite against him because they couldn't hold an annoyed (not bloodlusted) Supes is nothing to sneer at either.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Durability, Thanos is a league above Superman. Thanos survived the crush of a blackhole, and while worse for wear, he survived. Superman flees blackholes at his fastest speeds. And while Surfer has his low showings, his average puts him on par, if not slightly superior to Superman.

I have the issue, and Superman used his speed to escape the double black hole. He was in it for quite a while and came out just fine. Thanos on the other hand barely got out of his predicament and didn't look so great. Hell, I've posted scans of Superman repairing planet destroying time/space anomalies with his body alone! Both of them have gotten into some mean scraps and come out fine with one difference, while Superman usually wins his, Thanos either leaves the fights at just the right time, OR even if he doesn't win, he gets respected for just surviving.

Originally posted by UniOmni
2Combat speed only truely matters, if the one with it, is faster than the opponent. As in, can do whatever they want at their own leisure. Thats the cruelty of the speedblitz. When someone can't match the speeds, they are at the whim of the speedster. Surfer shouldn't be touched by Superman. At all. So the combat speed issue is kinda moot. Especially since Surfers not the slugfest type.
DragonBallz is an excellent example of what i mean. Those who are slower, are finished at the whim of the faster.

In a race, yes, SS should not be touched by Superman, however, in over 30 years of existence, SS does not have any speedblitz type battle attacks. It's very possible that SS just enters hyperspace after hitting light speed instead of actually going that fast. Lobo also travels space at far beyond light speeds pn his bike and Superman is still faster in a fight.

Originally posted by UniOmni
And my gripe with Tvo is its vague description. When people say, T-vo = Superman wins, my question is how? What does he do that the pc can't possibly counteract?? When those questions are answered, then i'll take it seriously. Thats kinda like someone saying, PC = Surfer wins. Thats no way to debate.

T-vo has been described. I remember one time that SS and Thanos were battling in the virtual world and SS had pretty much beaten Thanos in that type of battle. Problem was SS couldn't finish the job and Thanos took advantage. Supes has no qualms about finishing the job when he *has* to and that is an advantage he has over both when using T-vo as a VERY viable method.

Borderline reality control
Illusions
Tapping into his opponents power set.
A mental battle field where Superman controls the rules.

Originally posted by UniOmni
And while MF may have tried, MF is no Surfer. Thats like saying Hulk stomped and hit on Surfer to no effect. Hulk is no superman.

MF is definitely no Surfer, I never claimed that BUT, he did try the method being described by many and came out worse for it. MF is still a powerful character.

you raise some good points as usual. a very good one was the comparison of a t-vo attack to the mental battleground that ss beat thanos on. never really saw the parallel there, but i guess that is a very good comparison.

as for strength -- thanos has one-shotted uber drax along with his many other battle-type feats. pure feats thanos rarely does, so we need to look at how easily be beats down even the strongest top tier guys. it may be close, and perhaps supes could somehow will himself to be as strong, but in consistent showings i still say thanos.

durability is likewise pretty close, but i still side with thanos. i just have a hard time believing supes could stand up to the level of power (not taking into account it was magic) that odin threw at thanos. odin has basically one-shotted thor in the past and while supes>thor in durability, he would need to be WAY above thor to deal with that kind of damage.

meh, it is pretty close, but i think it's hard to say thanos loses when he really (spuirrel girl aside! 😄 ) if ever loses to this level of opponent 1on1.

ps-t-vo DOES make the issue less clear to me though, which is why gave supes the intangibles. how long does he need to prep to use t-vo?

it's instantaneous to when he can use it, usually a back idea or a plan B when things are looking ugly and the outcome very hazy.

I'd say that thanos,ss and superman are extremely hard to debate over lol im trying to figure this out, but im not gona write it out yet because they are close here and there that just confuses me again.

Originally posted by leonidas
you raise some good points as usual. a very good one was the comparison of a t-vo attack to the mental battleground that ss beat thanos on. never really saw the parallel there, but i guess that is a very good comparison.

I'm delighted to bring thoughtful scenarios for those who like to think about their battles. 😉 Even if I bring up what iniatially may sound as a "blasphemous" point...there is usually good reason behind it even if I don't spell it out right away.

Originally posted by leonidas
as for strength -- thanos has one-shotted uber drax along with his many other battle-type feats. pure feats thanos rarely does, so we need to look at how easily be beats down even the strongest top tier guys. it may be close, and perhaps supes could somehow will himself to be as strong, but in consistent showings i still say thanos.

Superman does have the strength without problem as witnessed when
physically beating Darkseid. At the very least, even "Jobberseid" is stat for stat even with Thanos. I've also never seen Thanos punch anyone across the Solar System at faster than light speeds and shake the earth when landing behind them.

Let's remember, if Supes didn't job in his comics somewhat...his title would last as long as SS series... 😆

Originally posted by leonidas
durability is likewise pretty close, but i still side with thanos. i just have a hard time believing supes could stand up to the level of power (not taking into account it was magic) that odin threw at thanos. odin has basically one-shotted thor in the past and while supes>thor in durability, he would need to be WAY above thor to deal with that kind of damage.

Durability is in the eye of the beholder, fox example...lets swap enemies.

Superman vs Odin - Odin has a distinct magical advantage, given the same magical blasts used against Superman..life would indeed be a painful one for our man of steel.

Thanos vs Asmodel - This too is a magical opponent, but Thanos would not have survived the light of heaven attack due to it's nature. Given his status at the time, death would not have tried to reverse the decision against Thanos dying either.

Black Hole - This has been gone over.

Tyrant - Thanos obviously had prep on this one, Supes with the same prep would have done just as well..he does have some nice kryptonian toys as well.

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, it is pretty close, but i think it's hard to say thanos loses when he really (spuirrel girl aside! 😄 ) if ever loses to this level of opponent 1on1.

He's also had trouble with Thor when facing him one on one as well as
Morg, Adam Warlock, Ka-zar...etc. Concidently, enemies that SS has fared quite well against on his own.

Originally posted by leonidas
ps-t-vo DOES make the issue less clear to me though, which is why gave supes the intangibles. how long does he need to prep to use t-vo?

Against Herald powered enemies, he's shown to have used it instantly.
Against ridiculously powerful cosmic beings, it takes effort. Due to the
massive difference in speed levels, it would not be a problem to use on Thanos at all.

I don't think this is the right thread for Superman vs Thanos. Hasn't that thread beenn up for a while?

Alright, now that T-vo has been dissected..

Borderline reality control
Illusions
Tapping into his opponents power set.
A mental battle field where Superman controls the rules

I still don't see how this automatically equals Superman wins. Maybe in the DCU, where Superman is king, but a nuetral universe?? The 99.9% chance of Superman winning, is drastically lost.

But thats neither here nor there. Seeing it outlined still hasn't swayed me to its Superman + T-vo = Victory mantra others buy into.
But this thread has gone way off road. My reason for creating this thread, was to see if DC really believed that Superman >> Daxamites, even though they are essentially the same exact race, only differing by weakness.