Originally posted by newjak86
Nice Leo going back over everything I have been doing the same thing to make sure everything done within the next match is within the legaity of everything stated.
glad to know we're on the same wavelength. 🙂
The problem with using Scoob was that he was also the one who said well we will limit the number later on to five so he eventually ended up allowing them in just for your knowledge Leo 😉
i know scoob was the one who suggested 5. do you think he would have agreed to 5 had he known you were trying to sneak in 5 extra herald level characters onto your team . . .? 😖hifty: maybe scoob can answer that when he drops in . . . 😄
Secondly Leo oblivion wouldn't be used because he would possibly was over the limit so he would be banned none of the Daxamite cinstructs break the limits. BW also explained that wasn't a one time thing and Kyle has done something simliar as well. The daxamites break no ruling made.
technically true, but they do break the spirit of the rule that was intended to make it 3 on 3.
As well Kyle has gotten better with the ring and if he knows he could do it then why wouldn't he be able to duplicate the same effect if he knows he can.
why wouldn't he? because he never CONSCIOUSLY made them in the first place. it's analagous to someone who is sleepwalking being a black belt but waking up and having no isea at all how to fight. your subconscious can and DOES keep secrets. if he has gotten better, shouldn't be a problem to PROVE he can consciously create similar things.
Rings are able to do anything depending on the ability of the GL using it to be creative enough to coneive of it and has the reserve to do it.
good, then you should have no problem proving it. 😄
I especially like this quote Leo. Your telling me that we couldn't use them because Oblivion would be set free seems to me this is a tourny Leo and not an actual comicbook I doubt Digi would allow Oblivion to be set free 🙄 so the Daxamites can come out as normal Leo.
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why not? it's a consequence of using them. seems like an inherent weakness in summoning them. inherent weaknesses CAN be exploited in the tourny -- ask captain atom! and i bet you're right -- digi prolly WOULDN'Y want him running around . . .
Leo man your cool and I got no beef with you but I think your scared. I can see the sweat dropping from your forehead. I can smell it the stench of fear on you. 😆
yep, that's me and kahn -- a bundle of nerves and fear! 😄
No but seriously Kyle did it with his mind whether you want to believe it or not he did and that means if he really wanted to why would he not be able to duplicate something he has already done and since none of them break anything they aren't banned plain and simple Leo. Besides if you beat Kyle they go away anyways. [/B]
kyle's RING did it (big difference) -- without kyle's consent or conscious desire. you guys skated the edge of the rules, broke the spirit of them, and now you KNOW you can't prove he can make them. and frankly, without proof, i see no reason why the NO LOOPHOLE CLAUSE shouldn't be implemented.
want to end the debate: PROVE (to me and everyone else) he can make them consciously. 😛
Um Leo your sleep walking theory is flawed man sorry but it is you see because no one can be a Balck Belt without having some kind of info given so you know what to do. No one is secretly a ninja just waiting ti fall asleep to get out and beat someone. That goes pretty much to your whole theory.
Someone does not get any ability or idea unless an outside source gives it to you and since all you ability to process and intake information is directed to your senses ti pick up nothing goes into your brain without you at least knowing about it so if Kyle knows he can do it why wouldn't he be able to duplicate the feat again it would seem even more plausable if it was his sunconseious that did it because that means the idea had to come from somewhere before some what and desire triggered by an outside stimulant Kyle would be able to reproduce it just by that.
Ill try and get the scans....dont have them with me. But yet again this was a kyle from long ago, and he did it while knocked out. However, with the Circle of Fire arc he knew what happened, and could therefore just simply ask the ring to do it itself again. Thats what the ring is for 🙄 not that much of a stretch.
I think it is important to keep in mind that regardless of whether Kyle can make them or not, the creating of several independent herald level characters should be banned. Pains where taken to specifically ban the creation of additional characters like what happened the last tourney.
The only reason that 5 independent constructs were allowed in the first place was under the assumption that they would be well under the level of a Green Lantern. Given that BW and Newjack intentionally misrepresented the power of the independent constructs they were intending to use, I don't think it is unreasonable for the judges to re-examine this issue. Had anyone known that the stone golems were going to turn into Green Lanterns, I highly doubt any judge would have ok'ed them.
Originally posted by TheKahnI think your over rating them a little bit aren't you Khan. Honestly though I don't see where they would be different then a GL construct that Kyle has made before just this time they are limited still.
I think it is important to keep in mind that regardless of whether Kyle can make them or not, the creating of several independent [b]herald level characters should be banned. Pains where taken to specifically ban the creation of additional characters like what happened the last tourney.The only reason that 5 independent constructs were allowed in the first place was under the assumption that they would be well under the level of a Green Lantern. Given that BW and Newjack intentionally misrepresented the power of the independent constructs they were intending to use, I don't think it is unreasonable for the judges to re-examine this issue. Had anyone known that the stone golems were going to turn into Green Lanterns, I highly doubt any judge would have ok'ed them. [/B]
And at the end of it if Kyle Goes they Go so it not like they are the end all be all of the tourny they are like illusions or shields they may make particular problems for some but others should be able to handle them quite fine I my self thought of many ways to take them down without much problem you guys could do the same I bet 😕
Originally posted by newjak86
I think your over rating them a little bit aren't you Khan. Honestly though I don't see where they would be different then a GL construct that Kyle has made before just this time they are limited still.And at the end of it if Kyle Goes they Go so it not like they are the end all be all of the tourny they are like illusions or shields they may make particular problems for some but others should be able to handle them quite fine I my self thought of many ways to take them down without much problem you guys could do the same I bet 😕
eer
You are creating 5 Superman-level characters who also happen to have Green Lantern rings, and I'm overrating them? And I think we all can see the difference between them and a typical GL's construct. 🙄
As for their "weakness", IIRC Duplicate Boy had the same "weakness" as BW used him in the last tourney. If Duplicate Boy Prime died then so would all of his dupes. And yet he was still specifically banned before the draft started. Substantial effort was taken to keep any team from adding characters to their rosters and that is essentially what you and BW are doing.
The fact that there may or may not be ways to beat them is irrelevant. Their use is opposed to the spirit, and perhaps letter, of the rules and were only allowed under false pretenses.
Originally posted by Blair Wind
false pretenses? everyone was fully aware that constructs were allowed and so long as they fall UNDER the limit for the tourny you were allowed to create 5 of them. So we did. 😬
When questioned as to the nature of these "independent constructs" the only example given was that of stone golems created by Shaman and who were able to be defeated by the X-Men. Resultantly, the only reason Digi ok'ed them was because they appeared to be so weak. Never was it mentioned or suggested that these constructs were going to be actual Green Lanterns much less Daxamite GLs.
The allowing of independent constructs was a decision made by both judges and participants. Had you given even the slightest inkling as to the actual power levels of your constructs, no one would have voted for them to be allowed. Now that we know the facts about them, I think the judges should reevaluate the decision and ban them.
Originally posted by TheKahnCorrection I believe Khell was the one who brought up that and he used the Golem Constructs we never mentioned anything about them because why would we give up a viable tactic if we didn't have to. we weren't trying to decieve anyone we weren't even the ones who brought the issue up 😕
When questioned as to the nature of these "independent constructs" the only example given was that of stone golems created by Shaman and who were able to be defeated by the X-Men. Resultantly, the only reason Digi ok'ed them was because they appeared to be so weak. [b]Never was it mentioned or suggested that these constructs were going to be actual Green Lanterns much less Daxamite GLs.The allowing of independent constructs was a decision made by both judges and participants. Had you given even the slightest inkling as to the actual power levels of your constructs, no one would have voted for them to be allowed. Now that we know the facts about them, I think the judges should reevaluate the decision and ban them. [/B]
Originally posted by newjak86
Correction I believe Khell was the one who brought up that and he used the Golem Constructs we never mentioned anything about them because why would we give up a viable tactic if we didn't have to. we weren't trying to decieve anyone we weren't even the ones who brought the issue up 😕
If that is the case then I apologize for making the suggestion that you and BW tried intentionally be deceitful. I must have recalled the events incorrectly.
Still, I think this issue should be reviewed by the judges now that all the details are known. The addition of 5 extra herald level characters to one team seems to be just what the "No Loophole" clause was created for.
Originally posted by Blair Wind
and I think your just scared 🙄to each his own. The power level is beneath the limit (which is incidently Sub THANOS) so what principle are you going to ban them on? The power level was ok'd, the idea of constructs were ok'd....so what are we banning them for? oh right....your scared.
Once again, no one ok'ed the creation of independant constructs that are herald level in terms of power in and of themselves.
But this is really an issue for the judges to review.
Originally posted by leonidas
play nice . . .? uh-oh . . .after a little chat with digi, we decided to kick off the OTHER semi-final with a little PRE-MATCH controversy. too bad digi will miss all the fun! i guess we'll just let all possible judges speak on the issue and maybe render THEIR opinions of the situation. and of course anyone else is free to chime in. 😉
now, let me preface by saying i luv bw and nj. and they both hopefully know that. but . . . this is WAR biatches and i've seen alls i can stands and i can't stands no more!! ergo, i'd like to address the legalities of these 'daxamite' "constructs" they have employed and may be employing again. (if you're NOT planning on using them, then read no further!! 😄 )
now, yes, i KNOW they were allowed in the first rd, but that should NOT have any bearing on their being allowed in the next round. i was disappointed that khell didn't question them more than he did. i know at least ONE judge/spectator did however. kahn and i sure as hell did too! so, just because khell ended up accepting them, doesn't mean kahn and i have to.
with that, let's start with a little walk down memory lane. these are excerpted from the rd 2 draft thread:
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[b]Scoob:
. . . Looks like Shaman got in but he will not be allowed to pull other characters (or copies of other characters) out of his bagUnlike in the last tourney, this time you will all be limited to the number of characters set out in the draft
BW: Im cool with that
KHELL: But they aren't duplicates of anyone. So I want it clarified. Is that tactic allowed or not.
VAL: I think we all agreed that only people who would be fighting would be the drafted characters and nothing else they could pull out of their hat...or pouch.
SCOOB: Green Lanterns and Quasar have to keep their concentration on a construct to keep animating it... they don't give them the ability to act independently... which i assume the rock monsters would
SCOOB: Quasar's constructs still exist after he forgets about them... but they can't do anything without someone controlling them
DIGI: I have no problem with the rock monsters. If a few slow-ass, unintelligent golems are worrying people, I'd seriously re-think your strategies boys.
VAL: Are those scans the best example of the rock monsters? If so I don't really see the cause for complaint.
KHELL: Yes, and one of the rules was NO LOOPHOLES. I'm just pushing a suggestion that closes down one of those loopholes.
NJ: The problem is that the rock giants are nothing more than an attack they may be able to move on their own but its not like they have great intellects. They are not a loophole Digi stated himself that they were ok as soon as he said Loki's dragon clouds things weren't breaking the limits.
Basically if you do this then your singling out one power in particular and saying that banned powers can work on them. Those powers are banned for reasons and if you allow then to be used in any reason then it is unfair to the team employing them because your singleing out their attack. Thus rises the question of why can't we do it to all attacks against us or why can't we simply effect the environment with these banned powers to beat them as we aren't directly fighting them.
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i will go ahead and give some immediate props to both khell and scoob. both of them seemed to have an inkling that something bad would come from the decision to allow independent constructs to be used. and i give nj and bw props on . . . sneakiness, because the irony of course is that bw and nj were never really arguing for SHAMAN! the constructs they were so slyly trying to sneak in were kyle's. let's look back at digi's comment:
DIGI: I have no problem with the rock monsters. If a few slow-ass, unintelligent golems are worrying people, I'd seriously re-think your strategies boys.
okay, so now we know that we're NOT talking about "a few slow-ass, unintelligent golems", rather we're talking about HIGHLY intelligent, speed-sharing, gl ring-wearing, superman strength having, DAXAMITES!!
based on that ALONE, and this:
KHELL: Yes, and one of the rules was NO LOOPHOLES. I'm just pushing a suggestion that closes down one of those loopholes.
yep -- NO LOOPHOLES!! i'd say having found a way to sneak in independent constructs based on the assumption that they were rock golems or unintelligent loki-made dragons, would fall under the "it's time to neuter this bullshite under the NO LOOPHOLES clause!!" i think it was pretty clear (and anyone can go back and read the thread for themselves) what was INTENDED to be allowed. can you imagine if one of shaman's powers was he could reach in his bag and pull out 5 power-ring wielding speed-sharing daxamites???? think THAT would have got through . . . come on . . .
if the fact that they SNUCK these things past the rules isn't enough, there is of course one OTHER little issue . . .
KYLE HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO BE ABLE TO CONSCIOUSLY CREATE CONSTRUCTS LIKE THAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the imaginary glc he created in the circle of fire mini was done UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY WITHOUT KYLE'S KNOWLEDGE, EFFORT, OR CONSENT!! and why were they created in the first place? to battle this little fellow -- whom kyle's ring ALSO brought into being WITHOUT kyle's knowledge, effort or consent:
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion4qu3.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oblivion5so5.jpg
the oblivion entity CRUSHED the jla. now, if kyle can make his daxamites in the tournament, why wouldn't he just bring in this bad boy? because oblivion is above the powerlevel limit? not good enough. he should STILL be able to bring him out -- maybe at a lower level or something?? but i cannot imagine anyone would okay oblivion. the glc was made to help defeat that being. but how independent were they and how absolutely certain was kyle that he summoned from from different times and different dimensions?
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death1ga3.jpg
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death2oh8.jpg
kyle actually believed one of them was KILLED!!! he had NO CLUE he created (actually the ring did it on it's own . . . without kyle's asking it to) them at all. and even when he DID find out he had no conscious control over them and had to practically beg them to re-enter his mind. why? because they were killing him being outside him!! they weren't just constructs, they were FACETS OF HIS PERSONALITY.
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=subconscious1gv3.jpg
these were NOT your run-of-the-mill constructs. they were not made through anything kyle consciously did. could he recreate them in the tournament? sure, as any REGULAR construct. could he consciously recreate them so they are independent?? NO!!! not unless i see some proof. and NO that battle against that 'god' where kyle copied himself and made the god think it was him is ABSOLUTLEY NOT the same thing!! why? because if you look at his scan, it is clear at the end that the construct fully understood and knew it WAS just a construct. we also have no proof it acted independently because we don't see kyle until AFTER the fight. he was hidden and more than likely was controlling the construct. at the very least there is again ZERO proof that that copy acted independently in any way at all. so, no, that scan is NOT good enough evidence that kyle can create independent constructs.
now bw's favourite quote seems to be that batman quote saying the ring can do "anything." then . . . if that's true, why is it that gl's were even ALLOWED in the tournament?? as has been proven time and again, gl's are NOT invincible, so no, it cannot do 'anything'. one thing it can't do: consciously create independent constructs. those constructs in circle of fire fooled EVERYONE!! they were in almost everyway REAL people. kyle cannot do that consciously: at least bw and nj have shown no evidence to support that claim.
lastly, if you need yet ANOTHER reason to disallow them: those special constructs were reabsorbed into kyle (remember they were less constructs and more manifestations of his personality that kyle couldn't live without) and USED in kyle's mind to keep oblivion trapped!!
http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trappednn0.jpg
so if he DID decide to try and consciously set them free again . . . OBLIVION would also be set free!!
if they say they are not making the "SAME" exact constructs, then i want to know which facets of kyle's personality he is going to imbue them with to 'make them real'??
to sum up: the constructs were not 'typical' constructs. they were made real without his consent, knowledge or effort. one went so far as to get killed and kyle STILL didn't know they came from his ring. bw and nj have never shown evidence kyle can create anything like them consciously (i already discarded the kyle copy against the god). without the personality facets (that what they were) kyle was dying. and on top of all that, they are being used to keep in oblivion. ANOTHER personality facet.
they tried to 'sneak' these constructs in by making it seem like we were allowing unintelligent golems or dragons, and they somehow got through the first round without even having to show evidence that kyle could even MAKE them!!! for both those reasons and everything listed above, i would like the judges to invoke the 'NO LOOPHOLES CLAUSE' and ban those ridiculous 'constructs'.
the prosecution rests. 😄 [/B]
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Originally posted by Blair Wind
and I think your just scared 🙄to each his own. The power level is beneath the limit (which is incidently Sub THANOS) so what principle are you going to ban them on? The power level was ok'd, the idea of constructs were ok'd....so what are we banning them for? oh right....your scared.
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