Originally posted by Superherovandal
Lucifer is amoung the top. He's one of those who doesn't usually actually do the deed but is the planner. He's just as evil as anyone else.
I agree that he is among the top, which is why i put him on this list. But you have to consider the facts that:
1) He usually picks on beings who atleast have 1% of a chance of escape/avoidance, and beings who have done harm to other beings as well. HE picks on very powerful people, which is impressive.
2) Even if he is the "influence of evil" i have not heard of him cruelly harming innocent and/or defenseless beings.
3) He gave Adam and Eve absolute Freedom in the universe he created. That seems pretty decent to me.
Questions:
1) Has he ever chopped up, raped, tortured, and killed children before?
2) Has he ever engaged in a violent bloodlusted slaughter of innocent people?
3) Has he ever taken away someone's free will (and by free will i dont mean did he force someone through intimidation, i mean has he ever totally taken away someone's ability to think for themselves and choose for themselves)?
I still think Billy Kincaid, Urizen, and Lawbringer QZTR beat him there. Lucifer from Vertigo comics is NOT responsible for THIER evil whatsoever.
Remember:
1)Billy Kincaid- has chopped up children, taking off thier bodyparts while they were still alive, raped little girls AND little boys, tortured them in unimaginable ways, and has murdered them only after they were mutilated. Even in Hell, even though he was a prisoner there, he still found time and the urge to strangle a little girl in Hell.
2)Lawbringer QZTR- not only mercilessly slaughtered half of the Negation cast in ONE ISSUE FLAT, he had slaughtered many civilizations and many worlds in general simply because they did not fit in with Lord Charon's approval. QZTR would even do punishments so cruel that even CHARON would disapprove of ! And Charon is evil as hell, for HIM to reprimand QZTR for doing certain punishments ??? You can only imagine how disgustingly sick and evil this dude is.
3)Urizen- kills the imagination, rots away the spirit, eats spiritual energy, kills free will, kills individuality and identity, kills love, his mere presence caused people 3 miles away from him to commit suicide and murder thier own family members....Heaven and Hell were both terrified of him, SO WAS GREENWORLD, even SPAWN got the shit scared out of him just by GAZING into Urizen's eye and seeing the senseless nightmare Urizen would unleash. I rest my case !
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Remember:1)[b]Billy Kincaid
- has chopped up children, taking off thier bodyparts while they were still alive, raped little girls AND little boys, tortured them in unimaginable ways, and has murdered them only after they were mutilated. Even in Hell, even though he was a prisoner there, he still found time and the urge to strangle a little girl in Hell.2)Lawbringer QZTR- not only mercilessly slaughtered half of the Negation cast in ONE ISSUE FLAT, he had slaughtered many civilizations and many worlds in general simply because they did not fit in with Lord Charon's approval. QZTR would even do punishments so cruel that even CHARON would disapprove of ! And Charon is evil as hell, for HIM to reprimand QZTR for doing certain punishments ??? You can only imagine how disgustingly sick and evil this dude is.
3)Urizen- kills the imagination, rots away the spirit, eats spiritual energy, kills free will, kills individuality and identity, kills love, his mere presence caused people 3 miles away from him to commit suicide and murder thier own family members....Heaven and Hell were both terrified of him, SO WAS GREENWORLD, even SPAWN got the shit scared out of him just by GAZING into Urizen's eye and seeing the senseless nightmare Urizen would unleash. I rest my case ! [/B]
I'd still say Lucifer is above them in evil. He also has killed children and tortured them. In Spectre v 4 #1 He influnced a woman who was a devoted Christian and used her easily for his own fun.
Lawbringer sounds pretty bad but Lucifer could still do everything he did and alot better.
Urizen sounds like the major 1 who could do anything to him. Lucifer all by himself could destroy all of Heaven and Hell (without the help of The Presence, The Word or Micheal) very easily. He went into the Mansions of Silence and destroyed it when he was powerless. In Sandman, Dream sent Cain to tell Lucifer that he was coming to Hell. Cain went crazy just being in Lucifers presence. He saw Cains mark, the mark imparted by the Presence that anyone hurting him will have the effect turned on them 7x over. Lucifer thought this was FUNNY. Lucifer also defeated and killed Fenris who was the immortal god of destruction. Fenris has been planning this for billions of years and has been watching Lucifer for billions of years, and Lucifer STILL won.
Yah it is true that Lucifer does not care much for torturing children and killing minor beings. He killings beings that are worth his time. But does that mean he is lesser evil? Nope, he was the second to go against the Creator. Also notice before the fall, angels wore nothing in Heaven, after it they wore clothes because they knew what sin was then. And who did that? Lucifer Morningstar.
Originally posted by kevdude
I'd still say Lucifer is above them in evil. He also has killed children and tortured them. In Spectre v 4 #1 He influnced a woman who was a devoted Christian and used her easily for his own fun.Lawbringer sounds pretty bad but Lucifer could still do everything he did and alot better.
Urizen sounds like the major 1 who could do anything to him. Lucifer all by himself could destroy all of Heaven and Hell (without the help of The Presence, The Word or Micheal) very easily. He went into the Mansions of Silence and destroyed it when he was powerless. In Sandman, Dream sent Cain to tell Lucifer that he was coming to Hell. Cain went crazy just being in Lucifers presence. He saw Cains mark, the mark imparted by the Presence that anyone hurting him will have the effect turned on them 7x over. Lucifer thought this was FUNNY. Lucifer also defeated and killed Fenris who was the immortal god of destruction. Fenris has been planning this for billions of years and has been watching Lucifer for billions of years, and Lucifer STILL won.
Yah it is true that Lucifer does not care much for torturing children and killing minor beings. He killings beings that are worth his time. But does that mean he is lesser evil? Nope, he was the second to go against the Creator. Also notice before the fall, angels wore nothing in Heaven, after it they wore clothes because they knew what sin was then. And who did that? Lucifer Morningstar.
Interesting point. Here is my rebuttle:
1) When and how has Lucifer tortured children? Does he savor in it? Is that his prime pleasure?
2) Lucifer can destroy Heaven and Hell...that is interesting as well, but here's what you may not be considering. It is highly suggested that Urizen can do the SAME THING...he just never DID. Also Heaven and Hell in IMAGE is muchh more extensive then the Heaven and Hell of DC/Vertigo.
From every Lucifer comic issue I have read, Lucifer seems more indifferent to me, rather than "evil", although I do recognize his evil.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Interesting point. Here is my rebuttle:1) When and how has Lucifer tortured children? Does he savor in it? Is that his prime pleasure?
2) Lucifer can destroy Heaven and Hell...that is interesting as well, but here's what you may not be considering. It is highly suggested that Urizen can do the SAME THING...he just never DID. Also Heaven and Hell in IMAGE is muchh more extensive then the Heaven and Hell of DC/Vertigo.
From every Lucifer comic issue I have read, Lucifer seems more indifferent to me, rather than "evil", although I do recognize his evil.
He didn't torture them himself no. He had the woman use and abuse the children, turning them into monsters and then killing them. A part of him savors it. It later shows him having a huge toy train running over children and him standing there smiling with Hal shocked. Is it his prime pleasure? No not really, he even states that he gets bored sometimes. Lucifer was created to rebel and go against God and challenge him from the beginning.
Heaven and Hell in DC/Vergito is very extensive as well. There is billions of versions of each for every being in the universe. Everyone creates there own Heaven or Hell. All these versions are tied together. However there is really only 1 main version of Hell and 1 of Heaven.
About DC and Vertigo continuity. Most Vergito books are in DC continuity. As shown in DC while the Great Darkness challenged God/The Presence. later on in Vergitos Sandman, it shows Lucifer talking about THIS major event. If Vergito isn't in main DC continuity then DC should have seen this and fixed it. Since they did NOT fix it, this means its in DC continuity. Books like Preacher are not in DC/Vergito Continuity, as stated by the writer. Vertigo is the adult version of the DCU. 😉
Originally posted by kevdude
He didn't torture them himself no. He had the woman use and abuse the children, turning them into monsters and then killing them. A part of him savors it. It later shows him having a huge toy train running over children and him standing there smiling with Hal shocked. Is it his prime pleasure? No not really, he even states that he gets bored sometimes. Lucifer was created to rebel and go against God and challenge him from the beginning.
1) Lucifer was really created BY God to go against him? Then he didn't truly do this out of his own free will, AND if Lucifer was MEANT to challenge God, then he is only going by God's plan, and is in no true way defying him. Only doing what he is supposed to do. There goes Juntai's previous argument down the drain. 😉
2) I understand that Lucifer finds pleasure in horrible things such as the agony of children and has no regard for life. However, every single Spawn villian is the same way and worse. Lucifer's indirect mistreatment of children in no way impresses me or even shocks me to the extant that Billy Kincaid does. Also his cruelty/sadism also do not impress me to the extant that QZTR does.
Lucifer is supposed to be the most evil in DC/Vertigo, i can certainly buy that he is evil, but he also seems very rational. He seems to do evil things out necessity for his GOAL rather than for the sake of pleasure. Torment to an extant seems to bore him, and this indifference is what makes him seem more nuetral as oppose to evil.
Originally posted by kevdude
Heaven and Hell in DC/Vergito is very extensive as well. There is billions of versions of each for every being in the universe. Everyone creates there own Heaven or Hell. All these versions are tied together. However there is really only 1 main version of Hell and 1 of Heaven.
I understand that in terms of individual torment/pleasure DC/Vertigo's Heaven and Hell and very extensive. However, in terms of POWER and powerful characters, there versions seems limitted. Spawn's version of Heaven and Hell are more extensive in which they have numerous characters, character ranks, and a larger variety and scale of power. I rather not go into this, but if you want me to, just ask. It's a lot to write tho.
Originally posted by kevdude
About DC and Vertigo continuity. Most Vergito books are in DC continuity. As shown in DC while the Great Darkness challenged God/The Presence. later on in Vergitos Sandman, it shows Lucifer talking about THIS major event. If Vergito isn't in main DC continuity then DC should have seen this and fixed it. Since they did NOT fix it, this means its in DC continuity. Books like Preacher are not in DC/Vergito Continuity, as stated by the writer. Vertigo is the adult version of the DCU. 😉
I don't care too much about loopholes and plot justifications. Marvel leaves a lot of loopholes as well, as did Crossgen before it was shut down. IT doesn't bother me too much, artists do that all the time. What matters more to me is story, character conflict, character development, and all that other crap lol
And yes, I can easily see how Vertigo is the adult version of DC. THANK GOD ! DC is a lil too kiddy at times. 😆
does it matter if he actually did rape and kill? Thats like saying if a woman has a bounty hunter kill and torture her husband for her own gain that she isn't that evil. Lucifer is a different kind of evil. Thats why you can't really say who is the most evil. i mean for instance Lex Luthor had Joker kill Alexander Luthor Jr. but does that mean that Lex isn't as much evil as Joker because he only did it for revenge?
Originally posted by Superherovandal
does it matter if he actually did rape and kill? Thats like saying if a woman has a bounty hunter kill and torture her husband for her own gain that she isn't that evil. Lucifer is a different kind of evil. Thats why you can't really say who is the most evil. i mean for instance Lex Luthor had Joker kill Alexander Luthor Jr. but does that mean that Lex isn't as much evil as Joker because he only did it for revenge?
1) Yes it does matter!!! VERY MUCH !!!! ✅ Doing a vicious action on someone yourself is more personal, and more directly evil than an indirect "behind the scenes" culprit.
2) If a woman hires a bounty hunter to kill and torture her husband, then she is slightly less evil than the person who actually does it. It depends on one thing: Could she fathom doing it herself? Or does she not emotionally have what it takes to do so?
3) Lucifer IS a different kind of evil...but from what I know of him, he does not pass to me as pure evil, OR the most evil. HE is a complicated, ambiguous, and more neutralized version of evil.
4) Lex is not as evil as Joker. Lex kills for revenge, which many good people do. Not to say that revenge isn't evil, but killing for revenge is not as evil as killing for the sake of pleasure. Joker is more evil than Lex, because Lex kills for power, he kills for goals. Joker kills for FUN....there is a HUGE GAP in the evil here. 😉
I have bought the Final Issue of the Lucifer Series, and I have some Interesting points to make:
1)Yahweh admits to not being his own creator. "True, I'm Infinite and Eternal. But even I was shaped by forces EXTERNAL to me." That means something else created/shaped his being, independent of his own doing. That throws Juntai's arguments into the garbage. ✅
2) Lucifer makes it very clear that he is NOT intentionally or directly responsible for all the evil that exists in mankind. Notice he says "the devil made me do it.....I have NEVER MADE ONE OF THEM DO ANYTHING...NEVER"
And he also says:
"Can you imagine what it was like? Ten Billion Years spent providing a place for dead mortals to torture THEMSELVES?....Why do they Blame ME for thier little failings? they use my NAME as if I spent my entire day sitting on thier shoulders, forcing them to commit acts they would otherwise find repulsive.
3) Finally, Lucifer says :
"I've always been the one who said NO to you father. THAT WAS HOW YOU MADE ME...So I presume you're only testing your workmanship"
Proving that even though Lucifer thought he was disobeying God, he really was just going along with God's plan unwillingly.
Hence, proving that Lucifer is not as evil as some of our contendors here. TAKE THAT JUNTAI ! ✅
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I have bought the [b]Final Issue of the Lucifer Series, and I have some Interesting points to make:1)Yahweh admits to not being his own creator. "True, I'm Infinite and Eternal. But even I was shaped by forces EXTERNAL to me." That means something else created/shaped his being, independent of his own doing. That throws Juntai's arguments into the garbage. ✅
2) Lucifer makes it very clear that he is NOT intentionally or directly responsible for all the evil that exists in mankind. Notice he says "the devil made me do it.....I have NEVER MADE ONE OF THEM DO ANYTHING...NEVER"
And he also says:
"Can you imagine what it was like? Ten Billion Years spent providing a place for dead mortals to torture THEMSELVES?....Why do they Blame ME for thier little failings? they use my NAME as if I spent my entire day sitting on thier shoulders, forcing them to commit acts they would otherwise find repulsive.
3) Finally, Lucifer says :
"I've always been the one who said NO to you father. THAT WAS HOW YOU MADE ME...So I presume you're only testing your workmanship"
Proving that even though Lucifer thought he was disobeying God, he really was just going along with God's plan unwillingly.
Hence, proving that Lucifer is not as evil as some of our contendors here. TAKE THAT JUNTAI ! ✅ [/B]