- Good Vs Evil -

Originally posted by The Omega
Was quite the Xmen fan a few years ago.
My problem with the "good" and "evil" in fiction is, that it is FICTIONAL. The hero and the villain are defined by the author, and often the portraits of them border on charicatures (sp?).
Especially in mainstream entertainment the hero is absolutely good and the villain absolutely evil -

Wolverine isn't exactly the stereotype of an all good hero.

But I agree that under some circumstances such an approiach is used. Hardly in serious comic books nowadays though. And you could do the same for novels by only judging pulp fiction or dime novels.

Originally posted by The Omega
Was quite the Xmen fan a few years ago.
My problem with the "good" and "evil" in fiction is, that it is FICTIONAL. The hero and the villain are defined by the author, and often the portraits of them border on charicatures (sp?).
Especially in mainstream entertainment the hero is absolutely good and the villain absolutely evil -

Not Quite. Heroes like Spawn and Punisher are misunderstood people, people with intense flaws who verge on almost being villians.

SAme for Villians like Venom from Spiderman. He is evil due to his intense hatred of Peter Parker, and his intense hatred of criminals. His methods of vengeance are very cruel, lacking in any kind of empathy or mercy. However, he despises a sadistic villain named Carnage, and who wouldn't despise him?

Then you have even more complicated characters like Dawn by Joseph Micheal Linsner, Ingra from Crossgen Comics, etc.

Absolutes do not exist even in the comic books 😉

The Age of Superman has passed.....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Not Quite. Heroes like Spawn and Punisher are misunderstood people, people with intense flaws who verge on almost being villians.

indeed, i think you need a balance of both to be able to make workable decisions. if you only want to do "good" then you'd be pretty limited, you could only do a few things before you had to be "evil" to get results.
i think evil is probably "easier" than good but it also shows a much more human element IMO.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
However, he despises a sadistic villain named Carnage, and who wouldn't despise him?

I...he's one of my favourites, I think I made a thread in teh CBVsF once. "Who's more ****ed up Cletus Kassidy or Joker" ....my threads don't go well...

Originally posted by tabby999
indeed, i think you need a balance of both to be able to make workable decisions. if you only want to do "good" then you'd be pretty limited, you could only do a few things before you had to be "evil" to get results.
i think evil is probably "easier" than good but it also shows a much more human element IMO.

I would agree. It is easier to be "evil", with or without that intent. Revenge is usually considered an evil desire, even when there is much justification for it, because no matter what, vengeance is aiming to hurt someone.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I...he's one of my favourites, I think I made a thread in teh CBVsF once. "Who's more ****ed up Cletus Kassidy or Joker" ....my threads don't go well...

I am on the comic book threads at KMC all the time. I did a "whose the most evil" thread, and both Carnage and Joker are on it !

However, they were beaten by a character named Billy Kincaid from Spawn.

Bump

Originally posted by Bardock42
Wolverine isn't exactly the stereotype of an all good hero.

In what ways exactly is he not GOOD. He may have “human flaws” but his drive is still “good” and “pure” is it not?

Originally posted by Bardock42
But I agree that under some circumstances such an approiach is used. Hardly in serious comic books nowadays though. And you could do the same for novels by only judging pulp fiction or dime novels.

My issue is with the dichotomy of good/evil. That they are MUTUALLY exclusive the way they’re presented to us mere mortal, and have been since religion defined them.
There is no GOOD and EVIL that way. We humans are many things, I can be “good” one day and “evil” the next, in sharp contrast to the dichotomy-definition of them.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Not Quite. Heroes like Spawn and Punisher are misunderstood people, people with intense flaws who verge on almost being villians.

SAme for Villians like Venom from Spiderman. He is evil due to his intense hatred of Peter Parker, and his intense hatred of criminals. His methods of vengeance are very cruel, lacking in any kind of empathy or mercy. However, he despises a sadistic villain named Carnage, and who wouldn't despise him?

Then you have even more complicated characters like Dawn by Joseph Micheal Linsner, Ingra from Crossgen Comics, etc.

Absolutes do not exist even in the comic books 😉

The Age of Superman has passed.....

Spawn is still driven by what you can call “the heroes” motives. He may have the characteristics of an anti-hero, yet his “quest” is pure, isn’t it? His goal justify the means.
I don’t know Dawn, and have only “met” Venom in an old Spiderman comic book from years back. He, too, seem to have the “goal justify the means” quest, while his goal is “pure” so to speak.

I think these anti-heroes do, however, appeal to us, because they’re more faceted than the old super-heroes like Superman who was the EPITOME of good. And that we get past the idea that you can ONLY be EITHER good or EVIL is great.
But does that mean the question posed at the beginning of this thread is moot. If good and evil can exist in the same person, then neither good nor evil will triumph?

Originally posted by The Omega
Spawn is still driven by what you can call “the heroes” motives. He may have the characteristics of an anti-hero, yet his “quest” is pure, isn’t it? His goal justify the means.

Agreed, but that just proves my point. There is no good/evil dichomoty with Spawn. He is a versatile and morally realistic/complicated character.

Originally posted by The Omega
I don’t know Dawn, and have only “met” Venom in an old Spiderman comic book from years back. He, too, seem to have the “goal justify the means” quest, while his goal is “pure” so to speak.

Eh not so much....Venom kills criminals in such vicious ways, he is unforgiving, and HATES Spiderman with such a bloodlust, for no real reason at all.

Yet he's the anti-hero. He is of no absolute nature.

Dawn is a Goddess, the Earth Goddess. In her novels, she slashed Lucifer's face and cut off God's right hand. In her novel, God and Lucifer are lovers (long story), and not to mention as the Spark of Life, her eternal enemy and lover is Death.

She is a morally ambiguous character, and that's what makes her GREAT !

Originally posted by The Omega
I think these anti-heroes do, however, appeal to us, because they’re more faceted than the old super-heroes like Superman who was the EPITOME of good. And that we get past the idea that you can ONLY be EITHER good or EVIL is great.

YES....hence why I said "The Age of Superman is Over". That is all fantasy, I think the first REALISTIC super hero was Batman, due to his violent and bias nature.

Originally posted by The Omega
But does that mean the question posed at the beginning of this thread is moot. If good and evil can exist in the same person, then neither good nor evil will triumph?

Possibly.

However, some people are a lot more evil than others, while other people are a lot more good.

You cannot say that Hitler was a good person. Did he have good attributes? Who knows...but his evil definately outweighed his good. He was used as a comic book character BTW.....

I think Good and Evil are a cycle, and if Evil is truly defeated, it is only done so out of Human Maturity and indefinate ability to survive.

I think our need for food, water, resources, money and pleasure Spawned greed, paranoia, fears and the rest of the negatives that come along with being Human.

Originally posted by The Omega
In what ways exactly is he not GOOD. He may have “human flaws” but his drive is still “good” and “pure” is it not?

My issue is with the dichotomy of good/evil. That they are MUTUALLY exclusive the way they’re presented to us mere mortal, and have been since religion defined them.
There is no GOOD and EVIL that way. We humans are many things, I can be “good” one day and “evil” the next, in sharp contrast to the dichotomy-definition of them.

Dunno, to an extend, then again he is also driven by his animal instincts, which is hardly a "pure" and "good" thing, he certainly is not a one dimensional character.

But they aren't in all Comics, I don't know what Comics you read, but it isn't all that clear and clean cut in Comics. If nothing else Hellblazer certainly isn't.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Dunno, to an extend, then again he is also driven by his animal instincts, which is hardly a "pure" and "good" thing, he certainly is not a one dimensional character.

But they aren't in all Comics, I don't know what Comics you read, but it isn't all that clear and clean cut in Comics. If nothing else Hellblazer certainly isn't.

Comic Books are losing thier "clean cut" stereotypes now, because it is clear that they disconnect from reality too much.

However, something sickens me about a new comic book that recently came out. It it said to be the first "conservative comic book" out there, it displays Jesus Christ as a sort of super hero, he fights the Greek Gods and beats them....its so stupid

Not only is it obvious religious propaganda, but it also "misrepresents" Jesus....turning him from a figure of peace to a figure of war....either way, it's cheesy, corny, stupid bullshit.

Good will always triumph

Originally posted by DRAKONS
Good will always triumph

❌

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Age of Superman has passed.....

Unbreakable.

Bump For Comments.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
[b] Good Vs Evil

Good Forces Vs Evil Forces in the World, who would win. Also, Who are the good forces, and evil forces. Look at this from two different perspectives and vote for who you think would win in our society. Would Good Win, Aka the government, police and such. Or Do the Evil win?

I know that there is going to be people who just vote Evil because they think like this:

"I be su 1337 man1!11!!!! I stole sum gurls pantys ha181!!!111!!!! m su eval"

Well, They're idiots.

Also, some people will vote good because they think like this:

"Good always wins because good can never lose!!!! Don't you read comic books LUSER!!!!!! jeesh I'm SUPER CEREAL!!!!"

I'm looking for people with good comments and thoughts, reasons why Good could possibly be better then Evil, or vice versa.

*There Isn't a Poll because I don't want people voting without making a good thought comment, so by peoples Posts we will see who wins*

Now Debate!

vincent

[/B]

Good and evil don't exist; no one wins.

well when you say good vs. evil it usually represents like the god vs. the devil. heaven from hell. i would say good would win because everytime good finds a way to win. ww2 . the police. in other hands evil wins because the bad guy ask questions. he opposes the law and what it says. they question the establishement and what it stands for instead of following blind like the good guys do. but either way one will remain and for us people we want good. you know what they say. we are our own worst enemy.

It is my opinion that there isn't good and evil, just difference in perspectives.

What Bardok brought up concerning rape is a good example. I don't advocate rape, since I don't find it to be acceptable, but to some people it is cool beans.

Another example would be the war between Spaniards and the Moors that lasted for over 700 years. Both of those sides thought they were fighting for the side of god. Who is to say which side was considered the good guys? They were both killing each other mercilessly, and when Spain got their act together, they were almost as fanatical as the Moors with the frontera and fanatical monk soldiers who patrolled the frontera.

Now this is also a personal opinion of mine, but concerning battle tactics, there is no good or evil. The idea of fighting "honorably" is flawed, mainly because I, and Patton, feel that you should make the enemy die for their country. That's just me though.

I'm bored now.

Bump for Debate.