DE Sidious Vs Marka Ragnos

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yeah, based on... what?

Essentially, all the pro-Ragnos factions argue that he is the most powerful based primarily on two things:

a) The statement made that: "Marka Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful".

b) His contemporaries feared him.

My response:

a) There has not been any source that specifically labels Marka Ragnos as "the most powerful Sith Lord ever". However, The Essential Chronology, the New Essential Chronology (co-authored by Kevin J. Anderson) and the Dark Empire sourcebook both state that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

More sources cite Palpatine as "the most powerful" than any other Sith Lord! - be it Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, or any other.

And, since Nai likes to argue that Palpatine being labeled the most powerful is "ambiguous" - I submit the same thing with Ragnos.

Two can play at this game.

b) Like I told Nai before (who used to argue that Dooku > Sidious), fear isn't an exact indicator of power. Especially when that is the only thing you can base it on.

Please note. Ragnos has not been shown using any Force power to my knowledge. No comics feature him pwning people left and right, making Force-storms, crushing stars, and all that jazz. They base their assumptions primarily on fear.

Fear and a single unsupported statement which only indicates that Ragnos may have been the most powerful during his lifetime and not in history.

Furthermore, Kevin J. Anderson (creator of the Ancient Sith) said that in order to determine who would be the most powerful Sith Lord, Kun and Palpatine would have to engage in battle - and whomever would be victorious would be "the most powerful Sith Lord".

Thus meaning that the only two candidates for "most powerful Sith Lord" are Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine and NOT Ragnos at this point in the juncture.

Case closed.

Originally posted by Escape81
...with his ship.

In DLOTS, he instantly closes his hand into a fist and boom, the star goes nova.

Don't get me wrong, he clearly wasn't the most powerful sith ever. He's not even up there imo, but neither is Sidious. They are still both clearly extremely powerful.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
In DLOTS, he instantly closes his hand into a fist and boom, the star goes nova.

On his ship.

Please note that Sadow's "ship" focuses and augments Sadow's own power.

Sadow is EXTREMELY powerful. EXTREMELY EXTREMELY. But the supernova thing is inconclusive because he was on his ship when he did it.

There is no indication that he uses the ship to amplify his power. I thought it had been confirmed that he used amulets to do so, and not his ship in that particular case.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
There is no indication that he uses the ship to amplify his power. I thought it had been confirmed that he used amulets to do so, and not his ship in that particular case.

I'm not aware of that, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

However, there again. His amulets. His items help to focus and augment his power. Strip all of them away (and the damn ship), and who knows if Sadow could do it.

I totally agree with you, but the fact remains that in a battle situation, he would have said items.

What part of 'DLOTS' is a reenactment and NOT THE EVENT THAT WE ACTUALLY AND PHYSICALLY SEE HAPPEN IN FOTSE is so hard to get? Sadow is even HUMAN in DLOTS

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
I totally agree with you, but the fact remains that in a battle situation, he would have said items.

We're not talking about a "battle". We're discussing power.

Nai, finally changed his mind about certain aspects of our argument concerned with Sidious and Dooku. Now, he accepts that Sidious > Dooku in "power", but that Dooku "still" has a chance of beating him.

Palpaitne, with his massive collection of weaponry and artifacts would probably have said items too...he gave Vader a Sith amulet.

Originally posted by Escape81
We're not talking about a "battle". We're discussing power.

Nai, finally changed his mind about certain aspects of our argument concerned with Sidious and Dooku. Now, he accepts that Sidious > Dooku in "power", but that Dooku "still" has a chance of beating him.

Using your logic, Exar is basically powerless compared to how he is displayed.

Exar killed Jedi MAsters and froze thousands of people

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Exar killed Jedi MAsters and froze thousands of people

Because of his powers that were amplified by sith amulets.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Right, sith swords were more powerful? Nope, according to the actual material, the sith preferred the visceral feel of the sith swords rather than the sterile saber. And that sabers faded from use with the times.

"Hey. This is the most powerful melee weapon I've ever seen !"
"Want to use it ?"
"No. I prefer this stupid sword because it feels better !"

Yeah. Right. Let's just ignore the fact that a weapon who can withstand direct lightsaber hits but, in contrary to a lightsaber, has some weight (kynetical power) can be "felt" by the user might be just better than a lightsaber.

Secondly? The man who CREATED Ragnos said himself it's between Kun and Sidious when I asked him DIRECTLY, he said he didn't have a way of measuring the strongest Sith, but if Kun and Sidious ever fought, we'd find out who the strongest was. You're not dancing around this, my question was clear and concise: Who is the strongest Sith, Sidious or the ones you created. Of all the ones he used for STRONGEST EVER, he didn't use Naga or Ragnos, he used Exar Kun as the strongest of the old times and said if he fought Sidious, we'd find out who was stronger.

Do you even read the bullshit you are posting.

a) Anderson himself said he doesn't have a way of measuring the strongest Sith - other than putting characters directly against each other in a fight.

b) Question: How can he determine who's stronger between Kun and random Sith Lord X without putting them against each other especially when:

c) Kun is his only creation because Veitch designed the entire rest of the era - something Anderson gave him credit for multiple times ?

Oh my. He can't.

The 'Golden Age?' of the ACTUAL EMPIRE, not the Sith themselves and two generations of Sith after were said to have surpassed the SE's 'grandeur and majesty?'...when the New Sith were creating newer and stronger techniques and creations of alchemy with the Dark Side? When they were learning to call spirits back from Chaos? When they were mastering what the Ancients had to offer and getting their own new stuff? Knowledge is GAINED over time, too.

Irrelevant missdirection number 27,000 - 27,005.
The interpretation that the Golden Age just refers to the actual Empire is coming from you. Point mood. "Grandeur and majesty" no equals "force knowledge" ? No ? Point mood. The New Sith were creating new and stronger techniques ? Where ? Nowhere because all we see them using came from the ancients. Point mood. They could call spirits back from the Chaos ? Like Ragnos sceptre could ? Point mood. No proof for any "new stuff"...nice...point mood. Knowledge gained over time ? You mean enough knowledge is gained to not only cover prior losts of knowledge but to create even more knowledge than that which was there in the first place ?

And Darth Rivan, Belia Darzu, the Dark Underlord AND Volfe Karkko were students ofthe Sith and Dark Side for centuries, are they stronger than Sidious? HYou always fall back on 'but he had centuries!' So what? Time isn't a subtitute for power and ability. Hey, how about the guy who was described as a God in the dark Side, a Titan in the Dark Side, the master of every aspect of the Force, Sith and Jedi alike...

It's nice how you completely fail to see a connection between "available knowledge" and "time to study it".

And Sidious was stated to have used the forcd storm to a greater extent than ever before, 'greatest usage of the dark side' in history, anyone? Anderson put Kun and Sidious together, but you know what you constantly ignore? He considers them the two strongest Sith and put Kun directly above the Ancients.

And again you cut the "possibly" out of the "greatest usage of the dark side" statement. It's getting boring. Same with your personal interpretation of Andersons words - if any of them even come from Anderson.

Hmmm....let's see. The canon says Sith preferred Sith Swords as d dangerous techniques? When'd Ragnos's spirit call spirits back from Chaos? Oh, right, his scepter could revive people, which was discovered by Tavion...according to Evil Never Dies, Tavion called Ragnos back from the realms of Chaos and elped him regain his former pothey like dthe more visceral feel and the lightsaber faded from use. Garu's mighty Sith Sword failed him against a lightsaber...Murtauggh killed the Sith Sword using Underlord, Satal Keto was using a sith sword...SUCH superior weaponry! Sorry, Nai, but according to the guide to weapons and technology..

Oh, give it a rest. KJA has been given FULL CREDIT for the Ancient Sith Empire, which Veitch didn't create! In fact, KJA had full writing credits for the Ancient Sith Empire! Veitch's vision of it was different! KJA created Ludo, Simus AND Marka Ragnos, Veitch had left by the time that was in DEVELOPMENT! And didja miss how he said he didn't have a way of determining it between Kun and Sidious? He totally took Ragnos out of the running! This is a man who at the very LEAST worked on and designed said characters and put Kun and Sidious at the top, meaning the man who WROTE Ragnos as 'the most powerful of the powerful' , the man who CREATED RAGNOS considers both Kun and Palpatine above him.

Oh, give it a rest: Ragnos even says the golden age is due to the grandeur and wealth of the Empire. There is never a HINT about 'power' or 'force knowledge' and considering later Sith empires were said to have surpassed the Golden Age of the past, point is MOOT. Oooh, and did we miss how Sith Lords like Seviss Vaa, Rivan, Kaan, Belia Darzu etc had created new anwer! Oh, and Ragnos wasn't 'so strong he needed all that energy', the game said that energy would be required to revive someone dead so long! And while I'm on the subject, Palpatine devised new techniques at his pleasure.

stated to have used the forcd storm to a greater extent than ever before, 'greatest usage of the dark side' in history, anyone? Anderson put Kun and Sidious together, but you know what you constantly ignore? He considers them the two strongest Sith and put Kun directly above the Ancients.

Except we've seen those people with more time to study it lose to people with a fraction of said time. Point=Moot. Oh, yeah, didja miss how it was directly stated what they knew, meaning you can't argue a damn thing as it's never been contradicted or retconned?

Ooooh, no, sorry. The force storm was 'possibly' the strongest force technique...SIDIOUS'S force storm was just THE greatest usage of the Dark Side...no possibly there, Nai, try again And don't try it. I posted the email out of a scan that one time, remember? Stop this sour grapes stuff because you can't argue against Anderson, because I'm sick of it. You think you know better than two LFL writers to date? Based on crap like 'But they had more time!' (Which's been countered) and 'But everything came from them!' (Countered). And personal inteprretation? There's some ambiguity about "If Kun and Sidious fought, we'd find out who the strongest was?"
Yeah, right. Deal with that. Along with how the Ultimate Guide states that the New Sith Emprie surpassed the Ancient Golden Age

Originally posted by Escape81
Essentially, all the pro-Ragnos factions argue that he is the most powerful based primarily on two things:

a) The statement made that: "Marka Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful".

b) His contemporaries feared him.

LOL. Great. Did you see one of those two statements in my argument. No ? Petitio principii, dude. Your answer on arguments not used exactly gives you...nothing.

a) There has not been any source that specifically labels Marka Ragnos as "the most powerful Sith Lord ever". However, The Essential Chronology, the New Essential Chronology (co-authored by Kevin J. Anderson) and the Dark Empire sourcebook both state that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

Argumentum ad verecundiam based on non-existing authority. Why the hell you keep siting that the NEC was co-written by Anderson if he just contradicted the statement in the NEC (and therefore all others) himself ?

More sources cite Palpatine as "the most powerful" than any other Sith Lord! - be it Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, or any other.

And, since Nai likes to argue that Palpatine being labeled the most powerful is "ambiguous" - I submit the same thing with Ragnos.

Two can play at this game.

And it still gives you nothing because I try to reconstruct Ragnos power level out of those things his subordinates did show while all you have is that Sidious is stated to be the "most powerful".

b) Like I told Nai before (who used to argue that Dooku > Sidious), fear isn't an exact indicator of power. Especially when that is the only thing you can base it on.

And more irrelevant missdirections. You just estimate fear where Sadow didn't show much "fear" when confronted with Ragnos spirit. So...how did Ragnos keep Sadow under his belt ? Because he was more powerful maybe or at least powerful enough for Sadow not trying to act against him ? We saw that Sadow did everything to receive the Dark Lord title when Ragnos was gone - before Ragnos death he didn't do so because of "fear" we don't see him show ?

Please note. Ragnos has not been shown using any Force power to my knowledge. No comics feature him pwning people left and right, making Force-storms, crushing stars, and all that jazz. They base their assumptions primarily on fear.

And again bullshit. May I remind you that Ragnos defeated Simus in direct confrontation where Simus is sited to be Sadow's mentor and teacher ? All Sadow had was coming from Simus and Simus wasn't enough to stop Ragnos. Guess who's better yourself now and stop handing me pseudo-arguments against "assumptions" when the base of said "arguments" is nothing more than other assumptions.

Fear and a single unsupported statement which only indicates that Ragnos may have been the most powerful during his lifetime and not in history.

And the fact that he was the only ruler of the Sith Empire who died because of natural age. And the little fact that he was the only person to reign said Empire for more than a century since Adas times. And of course the little fact he tooled Simus in direct confrontation. But when the next Sidious fanboy comes in all this happened because people "feared" Ragnos - of course without any attempt of a thought what this "fear" is based on. Especially in an Empire where we saw rulers commonly getting tricked and / or assassinated.

Furthermore, Kevin J. Anderson (creator of the Ancient Sith) said that in order to determine who would be the most powerful Sith Lord, Kun and Palpatine would have to engage in battle - and whomever would be victorious would be "the most powerful Sith Lord".

As Anderson stated multiple times that Veitch was responsible for creating everything else except Kun you might stop calling him the "creator of the Ancients" - he just told their story.

Thus meaning that the only two candidates for "most powerful Sith Lord" are Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine and NOT Ragnos at this point in the juncture.

Drawing conclusions out of incorrect statements. Logical fallacy. If Anderson is asked if his creation(s) or Sidious would be stronger and he himself sees Kun as his only real creation he just can give a statement about "Kun vs Sidious". It's like asking J.K. Rowling how many of the figures named "Harry Potter" created by her would be able to beat Voldemort. There is only one possible answer because there is only one "Harry Potter".

Not joinging the debate here, but just one thing Borbarad. Simus might have taught Naga everything, but that doesn't mean they have the same potential or that Naga proceeded to evolve them to a greater degree than Simus....

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hmmm....let's see. The canon says Sith preferred Sith Swords as d dangerous techniques? When'd Ragnos's spirit call spirits back from Chaos? Oh, right, his scepter could revive people, which was discovered by Tavion...according to Evil Never Dies, Tavion called Ragnos back from the realms of Chaos and elped him regain his former pothey like dthe more visceral feel and the lightsaber faded from use.

Oh it's so nice how you simple ignore that Tavion did it using Ragnos sceptre. There goes your argument, dude.

Garu's mighty Sith Sword failed him against a lightsaber...Murtauggh killed the Sith Sword using Underlord, Satal Keto was using a sith sword...SUCH superior weaponry! Sorry, Nai, but according to the guide to weapons and technology..

In ROTS and AOTC we saw Jedi using lightsaber getting gunned down with blaster weapons. According to your statement blasters > lightsabers now.

Oh, give it a rest. KJA has been given FULL CREDIT for the Ancient Sith Empire, which Veitch didn't create! In fact, KJA had full writing credits for the Ancient Sith Empire! Veitch's vision of it was different! KJA created Ludo, Simus AND Marka Ragnos, Veitch had left by the time that was in DEVELOPMENT! And didja miss how he said he didn't have a way of determining it between Kun and Sidious? He totally took Ragnos out of the running! This is a man who at the very LEAST worked on and designed said characters and put Kun and Sidious at the top, meaning the man who WROTE Ragnos as 'the most powerful of the powerful' , the man who CREATED RAGNOS considers both Kun and Palpatine above him.

See above and stop stressing my nerves with this stuff. If Anderson says Veitch is responsible of the creation of the entire Ancient Sith Empire I'm not going to contradict his opinion. Yes...the comics site him as author. So ?

Oh, give it a rest: Ragnos even says the golden age is due to the grandeur and wealth of the Empire. There is never a HINT about 'power' or 'force knowledge' and considering later Sith empires were said to have surpassed the Golden Age of the past, point is MOOT.

They surpassed them in terms of ruled space and that's it. The Golden Age refers to grandeur and wealth ? Wow...that's why Ragnos is telling Kun that he will bring another "golden age" ? Also nice double-standart. The later generations surpassed the ASE in "grandeur" and hence the individuals of the newer generations must be more powerful than the Ancients. Stop make me laugh.

Oooh, and did we miss how Sith Lords like Seviss Vaa, Rivan, Kaan, Belia Darzu etc had created new anwer! Oh, and Ragnos wasn't 'so strong he needed all that energy', the game said that energy would be required to revive someone dead so long! And while I'm on the subject, Palpatine devised new techniques at his pleasure.

"Look they created new knowledge !" - "Where ?" - "I don't know but they created new knowledge !!!" - "*yawn*" - "And Sidious was able to pull new force powers out of his ass at will !" - "What kind of force powers ?" - "I don't know ! But because he could do it he must be more powerful !!!111"

Force-lightning-fried-pizza anybody ?

Except we've seen those people with more time to study it lose to people with a fraction of said time. Point=Moot. Oh, yeah, didja miss how it was directly stated what they knew, meaning you can't argue a damn thing as it's never been contradicted or retconned?

Err...?

Ooooh, no, sorry. The force storm was 'possibly' the strongest force technique...SIDIOUS'S force storm was just THE greatest usage of the Dark Side...no possibly there, Nai, try again And don't try it. I posted the email out of a scan that one time, remember? Stop this sour grapes stuff because you can't argue against Anderson, because I'm sick of it. You think you know better than two LFL writers to date? Based on crap like 'But they had more time!' (Which's been countered) and 'But everything came from them!' (Countered). And personal inteprretation? There's some ambiguity about "If Kun and Sidious fought, we'd find out who the strongest was?"
Yeah, right. Deal with that. Along with how the Ultimate Guide states that the New Sith Emprie surpassed the Ancient Golden Age

Stop boring me to death with handing me the same bullshit over and over again. Statement given about Sidious force storm: 10 years old. Actual revelance ? Zero. Thanks. "Everything came from the ancient Sith" - you countered that were ? Nowhere ? Thanks. And the only one who argues Andersons words (VEITCH DID CREATE EVERYTHING EXCEPT KUN) is you. Ups.

Originally posted by kamikz
Not joinging the debate here, but just one thing Borbarad. Simus might have taught Naga everything, but that doesn't mean they have the same potential or that Naga proceeded to evolve them to a greater degree than Simus....

The same way it doesn't mean that Naga had the same / or a greater potential than Simus or did evolve the knowledge passed to him by his mentor to a greater degree.
As you can see such thinking leads nowhere. Obviously Sadow did nothing to end Ragnos reign when he had more than a century of time and Simus still alive in form of a head to tell him if he would be able to challenge Ragnos or not.
It's one thing to think you're not powerful to challenge somebody because he killed your mentor (that would be "fear"😉. It's another thing to have your mentor just defeated and the possibility to become more powerful than the guy who defeated your mentor - and your mentor at your side that might tell you when your time has come. If you decide not to challenge your possible opponent in this case then because you know you won't be able to beat him.

No, actually, She awakened Ragnos BEFORE she started the cult. There's no mention of her using the scepter to call him back. In fact, there's nothing suggesting she had the scepter until Ragnos became her master.

Shame the ones I was listing were one on one.

Where do I see Vietch's name as the author of Golden Age or Fall? Doesn't exist, that's right. Nowhere did Anderson give Veitch full credit for developing the Ancient Sith. The Empire and most of the characters? Totally KJA. In Veitch's work, Sadow was even human.

Yep, looks like Kun will create a large empire with grandeur and wealth. Since Ragnos even POINTS OUT to the Sith the grandeur and wealth when he exemplifies the golden Age. Knowledge is never even mentioned.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...except that statement about Sidious's force storm, from both the DE handbook and Dark Side sourcebook? Oh, it's old! So it MUST be invalid! Just because it beats your argument into the ground

And the NSE was described as having surpassed the Golden Age of old, thanks. I'll ask you again: are Darth Rivan and Volfe Karkko the strongest Dark Jedi ever? They're the oldest known.

Oh, and Veitch created most everything until KJA took over at around TSW...double bladed saber? KJA is given full and complete credit for the Ancient Emprie so quit this semantics BS. And everything came from the Ancient Sith: Countered where the New Empire was stated to have been developing new techniques in the Dark Side and Sidious devised new techniques at his pleasure. K then. It's kinda fun...does your opinion override what the canon Dark Side Sourcebook, Dark Empire sourcebook and handbook and Evil Never Dies when none of have been contradicted or overwritten and are still used as canon? Do you overwrite Kevin Anderson who co-wrote exactly what Ragnos was and basically said he's inferior to Kun? Please. Wanna get really specific? If Ludo and Naga could destroy fleets with the force, or even move a ship like even Luke by DE could do, then they would never have lost how they did.
Oh, and stop the sour grapes: New knowledge was created and that it hasn't been specified changes nothing.
Oh, and Simus was cited as a powerful sith....where? Just that he was 'old, wise and noble', great credentials.And Sadow spent his time in political bickerings with Ludo's faction and crafting new experiments to further the Empire
I'm waiting for proof of a reigning DLOTS in the Ancient Empire being challenged. Since the Sith were forced to assassinate one and all signs point to when you're in, you're in for life without regard for others. Since Naga said himself: "All must obey the Dark Lord." Nothing about power, whatsoever. Just that you won in the past.