I didn't say he was able to defeat Ragnos, and I didn't say he was able to defeat Simus either, but you put it like he was either his equal or worse than Simus, "because they had the same teachings". This is untrue, one must be superior. Though it is impossible to say (except if we can compare them in any way) we cannot say that they are equal for that....
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, actually, She awakened Ragnos BEFORE she started the cult. There's no mention of her using the scepter to call him back. In fact, there's nothing suggesting she had the scepter until Ragnos became her master.
Ah. Lightsnakes famous "Ragnos sucks" game versions out of the blue. Tavion found the sceptre on Commenor where it was kept by a merchant. She didn't have to do anything with Ragnos before since it's explicitly stated that the sceptre was needed to "call Ragnos spirit back from the netherworld of the force".
Shame the ones I was listing were one on one.
Jango Fett VS Coleman Trebor. Ups.
Where do I see Vietch's name as the author of Golden Age or Fall? Doesn't exist, that's right. Nowhere did Anderson give Veitch full credit for developing the Ancient Sith. The Empire and most of the characters? Totally KJA. In Veitch's work, Sadow was even human.
"In the comics, Tom Veitch and I have developed the life story of Exar Kun, a villainous Dark Lord of the Sith, whose spirit appears in my Jedi Academy books" - Anderson giving Veitch credit even for Kun's creation partitially.
"Tom Veitch and I gave him a two-page questionnaire about what Dark Lords of the Sith can or can't do and Lucas defined all the parameters for us." - ups. As it seems he and Veitch worked together on some Dark Lords at least. That would be what Dark Lords if not the ancients ?
Excuse me - but I thrust Anderson himself more in the question "who created what" than I do thrust your personal assertions. If Anderson says he worked everything out with Veitch than that's the end of the story.
Yep, looks like Kun will create a large empire with grandeur and wealth. Since Ragnos even POINTS OUT to the Sith the grandeur and wealth when he exemplifies the golden Age. Knowledge is never even mentioned.
And it's not mentioned for the NSE. And it's not mentioned for the people you named. And it's not mentioned for Sidious himself other than mastering "everything" which of course is limited to whatever was available. Creatio ex nihilo - because we don't know anything we know that Sidious had the greatest amount of knowledge when quite many sources indicate something different. Woopie.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...except that statement about Sidious's force storm, from both the DE handbook and Dark Side sourcebook? Oh, it's old! So it MUST be invalid! Just because it beats your argument into the ground
No. Just because that most direct references on Ragnos were given far beyond the release of both books (JK:JA, KotoR I + II and so on...).
And the NSE was described as having surpassed the Golden Age of old, thanks. I'll ask you again: are Darth Rivan and Volfe Karkko the strongest Dark Jedi ever? They're the oldest known.
Surpassed the Golden Age in terms of what ? No answer - no argument.
Oh, and Veitch created most everything until KJA took over at around TSW...double bladed saber? KJA is given full and complete credit for the Ancient Emprie so quit this semantics BS.
See above. Anderson > you.
And everything came from the Ancient Sith: Countered where the New Empire was stated to have been developing new techniques in the Dark Side and Sidious devised new techniques at his pleasure. K then.
Oh my. Techniques we never seen ? Techniques that range from "unknown X" to "unknown Y" ? The point is that when they fought they just used stuff already known to the ancients. Anything contradicting this ? No ? Pwned.
It's kinda fun...does your opinion override what the canon Dark Side Sourcebook, Dark Empire sourcebook and handbook and Evil Never Dies when none of have been contradicted or overwritten and are still used as canon? Do you overwrite Kevin Anderson who co-wrote exactly what Ragnos was and basically said he's inferior to Kun? Please.
See above. Boring, boring and boring. Can DE Sidious defeat Nihilus in a fight...tick, tick, tick, boom. He can't because the only person to do so is the Exile ? My. Nihilus > Sidious ?
Wanna get really specific? If Ludo and Naga could destroy fleets with the force, or even move a ship like even Luke by DE could do, then they would never have lost how they did.
Yes. Irrelevant missdirection again. So Sidious isn't even able to stop a single guy because otherwise Vader wouldn't have tossed him into the reactor core in ROTJ. My grandma with a walking stick can do it. My grandma > your godlike Sidious. Any more dumb reasoning ?
Oh, and stop the sour grapes: New knowledge was created and that it hasn't been specified changes nothing.
See above. "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant to the power of creating a Pizza with a diametre of 20 metres."
Oh, and Simus was cited as a powerful sith....where? Just that he was 'old, wise and noble', great credentials.
And the leader and most powerful of the Sith priest caste. Ups.
I'm waiting for proof of a reigning DLOTS in the Ancient Empire being challenged.
I guess Simus lost his head to Ragnos in an accident. "Here Simus look at my new sword. Ups." And "the strongest shall rule" was just a meaningless phrase.
Since the Sith were forced to assassinate one and all signs point to when you're in, you're in for life without regard for others.
See above. Simus was beheaded by Ragnos. Ding, ding, ding.
Since Naga said himself: "All must obey the Dark Lord." Nothing about power, whatsoever. Just that you won in the past.
And because all must obey the Dark Lord nobody freaking cared about this "rule" once Sadow was off for war, correct ? And Kressh even ignore this great "rule" right after Sadows "election". Wow ? And of course we have some Dark Lords that were assassinated. Ups ? More brainless assertions you want to talk about or was that all ?
It was stated....where? Tavion apparently apprenticed herself to him before she got the scepter.
Miss how Coleman wasn't a warrior, was focusing on Dooku and Jango was one of the deadliest men in the galaxy? And when Jango faced a very skilled duelist minutes later...
Ulic, Satal, freedon...KJA gets credit for the Ancients, he designed their culture and species entirely and abel said as much. And all you've proven is they worked together on things. KJA's opinion still carries weight, I'm afraid.
Bullshit. Sidious mastered every aspect of the force and every technique of the Sith, Jedi, among others from the Jensaari to the Fallanassi to the Nightsisters to the Sorcerers of Tund to the Monks of Palawa. What're these other sources indicating what's different?
and Anderson>You. Ragnos<Kun and Sidious, thanks! Considering Kevin wrote the story he appeared in and at the very least co-designed him and his culture, well, I trust what he says more than your opinion.
To quote: "Created new techniques." Belia Darzu invented the technique of creating technobeasts which was infusing the dead to her alchemical creations, for one. And It said they created NEW techniques...and Palpatine knew all known, all previously unknown and forgotten and devised new techniques at his pleasure. Try again.
Oh, how mature, Nai. Right, miss the prophecy? Ragnos was beaten by a guy who was just knighted. Kun was beaten by toddlers.
Simus was CUT DOWN by Ragnos -Not beheaded- in a battle to determine who'd become Dark Lord! Try again.
Where is Simus sited as leader of the Kissai? Oh, he's NOT! That's the succesion ritual, miss that? Give me one source where Simus is sited as a Dark Lord, because he and Ragnos fought to see who'd become Dark Lord.
More sour grapes, Nai? Just give it up: Not everything was derived from the Ancients and the text proves this
Sadow was the firstmin ages to break the ritual and became Dark Lord through unconventional means. He and KRessh were having the ceremonial duel until Ragnos stopped them. And Kressh kinda discovered that Naga murdered Simus and betrayed the Empire. Until then, he wasn't acting against Naga. And notice the circumstances were highly irregular? If the succesion ritual was finished, Ludo wouldn't have been alive to protest.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing with anybody here (how was my Kamikz impression?), the NEC is written from an in-universe perspective. So when Palpatine is vaguely stated as the most powerful sith ever, it is not 100% fact.
Yeah, I've used that phrase once or twice and now it is my trademark, awesome... 😐
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It was stated....where? Tavion apparently apprenticed herself to him before she got the scepter.
Pass what you're smoking. Tavion was left alive by Katarn as we all know then traveled to Commenor, found the sceptre and used it to call back Ragnos spirit. That's it. Or did you see Ragnos influencing Tavion at any point of the game ? All I did see was him rising from his grave in spirit form...
Miss how Coleman wasn't a warrior, was focusing on Dooku and Jango was one of the deadliest men in the galaxy? And when Jango faced a very skilled duelist minutes later...
Miss how you aren't getting the point again ? To judge the effectivity of a certain weapon it's pretty dumb to state who did won a fight with another weapon. Got it ?
Ulic, Satal, freedon...KJA gets credit for the Ancients, he designed their culture and species entirely and abel said as much. And all you've proven is they worked together on things. KJA's opinion still carries weight, I'm afraid.
Anderson himself contradicts that dumb opinion. So what do you want to tell me ? That Veitch can't even possible have been involved in the creating process when Anderson himself states something different ? LMAO.
Bullshit. Sidious mastered every aspect of the force and every technique of the Sith, Jedi, among others from the Jensaari to the Fallanassi to the Nightsisters to the Sorcerers of Tund to the Monks of Palawa. What're these other sources indicating what's different?
Rofl. Yes. Knowledge of the Fallanassi he didn't even know about ? Pfft. He could only master what was still available. If I wipe some strings of knowledge out of existance they are gone. Some of it can be rediscovered but "anything" ? Hardly...
and Anderson>You. Ragnos<Kun and Sidious, thanks! Considering Kevin wrote the story he appeared in and at the very least co-designed him and his culture, well, I trust what he says more than your opinion.
Are you that dumb or do you just want to act like this ?
Ragnos wasn't created by Anderson alone. Kun wasn't created by Anderon alone. The ancient Sith - not even created by Anderson since he directly states that the ideas came from Veitch. Uh-hu ? Andersons opinion here doesn't matter because he just gave you a blanket statement saying "think what you want - we will never know". Only way to deal with notorious fans.
To quote: "Created new techniques." Belia Darzu invented the technique of creating technobeasts which was infusing the dead to her alchemical creations, for one.
This is why that is called an "ancient technique" named mechu-deru, correct ? Even further spoken: Infusing the dead to her achemical creations ? I thought you did read "Leviathan", dude ? Already done by people during the hundret-year-darkness.
And It said they created NEW techniques...and Palpatine knew all known, all previously unknown and forgotten and devised new techniques at his pleasure. Try again.
I'm pretty sure that even you can figure out that "knowing forgotten techniques" is an impossibility, correct ? If you can't better stop debating.
Oh, how mature, Nai. Right, miss the prophecy? Ragnos was beaten by a guy who was just knighted. Kun was beaten by toddlers.
Sidious was beaten twice by crippled dudes in life-support systems. I guess that were the less impressive deaths of a godlike being I've ever seen.
Simus was CUT DOWN by Ragnos -Not beheaded- in a battle to determine who'd become Dark Lord! Try again.
Read GAotS. Come tell me again.
More sour grapes, Nai? Just give it up: Not everything was derived from the Ancients and the text proves this
More dumb reasoning. Everything we see in use is ancient Sith knowledge. If they invented something new they never used it ? Why ? Maybe because the ancient techniques were plain and simply better ? Yes ? Thanks.
Sadow was the firstmin ages to break the ritual and became Dark Lord through unconventional means. He and KRessh were having the ceremonial duel until Ragnos stopped them. And Kressh kinda discovered that Naga murdered Simus and betrayed the Empire. Until then, he wasn't acting against Naga. And notice the circumstances were highly irregular? If the succesion ritual was finished, Ludo wouldn't have been alive to protest.
LOOOOOOOOOOL.
A "ceremonial duel" ? That's why Ragnos moved in to stop it saying basically that they shouldn't fight against each other ? And I love the "highly irregular" comment.
Of all the Dark Lords we know about:
- Dathka Graush was assassinated and became Dark Lord because winning a civil war
- Tulak Hord was mentioned to be an unbeaten duellist. Do you really think that he gained this image because of one fight (which made him the Dark Lord) ?
- Sadow was directly opposed by Kressh and some others before they found out what Sadow was really doing
- Kreia mentions that "civil wars" were quite common in the Sith Empire
So because we have one Sith Lord that died because of his natural age opposing to other getting killed the one must be the "regular" not the "exception". Because we obviously are confronted with constant civil wars and duels nobody did ever touch the Dark Lord - and again Ragnos is not the exception here. Because of that those two specific things are pointed out in every damn source mentioning Ragnos because they were nothing special. Logic anybody ?
And Kressh immediatly denied to follow Sadow's commands, dude. "All have to obey the king" - "F*** You, Sadow" - "See...all obey the king !"
About mechu-deru,
'Using the Sith power known as mechu-deru, she created the frontline of her force: hulking part-creature, part-machine technobeasts infested with nanogene droids. In combat, the tiny droids could infect their enemy, rewriting the unfortunate being's genetic code until she became a undead technobeast herself.'
There doesn't seem to be any indication that she invented it.
Give me a break...Tavion called him back long before we saw him at Korriban according to Evil Never Dies. When was the scepter even mentioned?
How about: When we see practically every user of a certain weapon fall to a wielder of another weapon, it's safe to assume some superiority. Especially when you put a guy with a blaster against a guy with a saber...on average, the guy with a saber's victories tend to number in the...hundreds?
Oh, give it a rest! Anderson said one thing very clearly. Anderson is given credit for the Ancients. You have NOTHING but an interpretation of a quote that came about before Anderson took over TOTJ completely!
Miss how there was a FALLANASI TRAITOR who collaborated with the Emprie for years? Yes, you did. oooh, and sorry, **** your opinion! The canon says 'everything'...making it 'everything.
Great, Veitch helped. Who wrote them in the stories? Anderson. Whose name is on the credits? Anderson. Who built up the culture? Anderson. Who has more a say than you? Anderson. who considers Ragnos to be inferior to his creation and Sidious? Anderson. And sorry, but he has right to say that's that, considering he wrote the damn comic. Man, even if Veitch went up to you and said Ragnos is weaker than Darth Sidious, you'd still find a way to wiggle out of it.
Mechu-Deru's hardly ancient. It was based on Ancient alchemy, but the technique was invented by the NSE. Oh, and where did the Leviathan 'infuse the dead?' It stole souls, that's hardly the same thing.
Except you can know forgotten techniques because you discover and learn them. Says he did, your opinion means nothing.
Once more: hell with your opinion. Ragnos was beaten by a pre-teen and Kun was driven away by Padawans and toddlers.
*Reads GaoTs* You were saying? Simus is only ever referred to being 'cut down'...species don't survive immediate decapitation
Gee, show me one comic with the New Sith Empire...And there's somrthing called 'necessity'
Dathka was Dark Lord before the Dark Jedi even arrived and was a full blooded Sith. Apparently he's been taken out of the 'DLOTS' category thanks to Abel. Tulak was likely one of the exiled Dark Jedi who went to the Sith worlds with Ajunta and the others. So, it's likely he had plenty of duels at the start of the empire. Especially sincew his time frame is well before there was stability within the Empire. And miss how Sadow's duel of succesion was interrupted and Kressh discovered he murdered Simus....especially as Sadow didn't become Dark Lord via orthodox means. And yeah, civil wars WERE quite common in the empire...after Adas died and before the Dark Jedi arrived, Evil never Dies explained that away. And Sadow pretty much said "Eh, let them do what they want."
Did you miss how Sadow was the first Sith Lord in a long time to break the orders and guidelines? Especially when Sadow says he only obeyed Marka because 'everyone' must obey the Dark Lord
In fact...show me a source that says Ragnos died to old age.
LOL. Great. Did you see one of those two statements in my argument. No ? Petitio principii, dude. Your answer on arguments not used exactly gives you...nothing.
You have no point.
You have nothing detailing the fight between Ragnos and Simus. Nothing - other than the outcome, which is Simus without a body. But, much like Yoda vs. Sidious, if you don't have the details of the fight, we'd assume that Yoda lost, having fled and all.
You have absolutely NOTHING (emphasis on nothing) that accurately indicates Ragnos's power other than a single quote and that his contemporaries feared him.
Unless of course, you've got more.
And it still gives you nothing because I try to reconstruct Ragnos power level out of those things his subordinates did show while all you have is that Sidious is stated to be the "most powerful".
Sidious is stated to be the most powerful.
However, you (being arrogant and reluctant to believe it) want to argue the context of "power" in Sidious's case? Lol, see, I always considered that a pathetic attempt to downplay Sidious. Remember how you always accuse others of downplaying specific characters?
Well, welcome to their club.
And more irrelevant missdirections. You just estimate fear where Sadow didn't show much "fear" when confronted with Ragnos spirit. So...how did Ragnos keep Sadow under his belt ? Because he was more powerful maybe or at least powerful enough for Sadow not trying to act against him ? We saw that Sadow did everything to receive the Dark Lord title when Ragnos was gone - before Ragnos death he didn't do so because of "fear" we don't see him show ?
Once again. This is the same argument with different people. You once argued that Dooku's fear of Sidious was irrelevent, and yet it was sufficient enough that Dooku didn't dare act against his master - and even had no trouble throwing himself into battle against Yoda (whom you believe to be a good ways above Sidious himself).
Kind've in the same situation.
I don't doubt that Ragnos is at least as powerful as Sadow, making him one of the most powerful Sith Lords.
And again bullshit. May I remind you that Ragnos defeated Simus in direct confrontation where Simus is sited to be Sadow's mentor and teacher ? All Sadow had was coming from Simus and Simus wasn't enough to stop Ragnos. Guess who's better yourself now and stop handing me pseudo-arguments against "assumptions" when the base of said "arguments" is nothing more than other assumptions.
If I may use your term, "bullshit".
May I remind you that the details of their fight remains inconclusive to this day. For all you know, Ragnos got a lucky hit. Or a tactical advantage as you so associate with Palpatine.
And the fact that he was the only ruler of the Sith Empire who died because of natural age.
Erm . . . so what? I never denied he was the strongest of his time.
And the little fact that he was the only person to reign said Empire for more than a century since Adas times.
See above.
And of course the little fact he tooled Simus in direct confrontation.
And, of course, you don't know the specifics of the fight.
Wait, lol. I forgot. You have the nifty ability to read into the actions and thoughts of authors.
Gosh, I wish I had that.
As Anderson stated multiple times that Veitch was responsible for creating everything else except Kun you might stop calling him the "creator of the Ancients" - he just told their story.
Okay. Well, Veitch specifically called Palpatine "the most powerful Sith Lord ever" and Ragnos as "the most powerful of his time".
Case closed.
Palpatine > Ragnos.
Drawing conclusions out of incorrect statements. Logical fallacy. If Anderson is asked if his creation(s) or Sidious would be stronger and he himself sees Kun as his only real creation he just can give a statement about "Kun vs Sidious". It's like asking J.K. Rowling how many of the figures named "Harry Potter" created by her would be able to beat Voldemort. There is only one possible answer because there is only one "Harry Potter".
Bottom line, Nai.
Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. And, what's that? NOTHING - in terms of feats or otherwise puts Ragnos on Sidious's level.
When you can tell me for a FACT that he can do what Sidious can - and more - then I'll believe you.
Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious is stated to be [b]the most powerful. [/B]
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing with anybody here (how was my Kamikz impression?), the NEC is written from an in-universe perspective. So when Palpatine is vaguely stated as the most powerful sith ever, it is not 100% fact.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except it is as sourcebook story is canon as any book or comic and subject to the same. According to the HolocronAnd Lucas STILL uses Sidious as a measuring stick...especially for Anakin who would have become the strongest Jedi...
That's because Lucas tends to ignore the EU.