The fool has said in his/her heart there is no God

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"Believe in me or go to Hell," is not one of the ten commandments that were inscribed on stone.

However, "you shall have no other gods before Me," is one of the ten commandments that were engraved into the stone.

LMAO, ur ability to understand sarcasm is nonexistance. its IRONY my friend, his statement wasnt supposed to convey direct beliefs.

oh yea, i know its not ironic, its stupid, just like my former statements 🙄 .

ill verify in the next post if the purpose of --- 🙄 ----- is also lost on u.

Originally posted by Violent K
If God is all loving, why does he act like Hitler?

If God were not all loving why did He send His only Son to be beaten, tortured, humiliated, spit on, betrayed, hated, rejected, despised, and crucified on a rugged cross? If God were not all loving then why did He make a way for you to avoid going to Hell for eternity? If God were not love why did He commission preachers to tell the world about Jesus so that it could be saved from God's righteous wrath against sin? God didn't have to do any of the things that I just described, but He did. Do you know why? Glad you asked, because God is love just like the Bible says that He is.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
If God were not all loving why did He send His only Son to be beaten, tortured, humiliated, spit on, betrayed, hated, rejected, despised, and crucified on a rugged cross? If God were not all loving then why did He make a way for you to avoid going to Hell for eternity? If God were not love why did He commission preachers to tell the world about Jesus so that it could be saved from God's righteous wrath against sin? God didn't have to do any of the things that I just described, but He did. Do you know why? Glad you asked, because God is love just like the Bible says that He is.

all of those statements are based on underlying assumptions and axioms which have no evidence to back them up and much evidence to disprove them. assuming though that every 1 of the statements u made is true and looking at nothing else, we can, at best say that god is not all hate/anger/detest/unjustice, from that u cud make a further assumption that he MAY be in some part of of his constituents or arising, LOVE, {nicest possible interpretation}. seeing as he HIMSELF set up the traps that lead to hell, he himself created hell, he himself created the tendancy of humans to fall into the traps that he created, and furthermore he is himself the imposer of the criteria that send a person to hell and is the only creater and administrater of pain that a person feals in hell. furthermore he is the very creator of pain/suffering and also the creator of hate/pain/despair/rage/suffering and every other negetive emotion{see to it that since he is all powerful he did all this things fulloy knowingly and willingly without any outside intervention}. he also knows exactly which people will fall for the traps he created and who wont and still blames the people, also he needs nor can GET absolutely ANYTHING from his followers, their offerings, beliefs, teaching etc, yet he commands them to follow him/glorify him{a logical contradiction}/worship him, and those that dont accept him through jesus{dont even get me started on that} go to hell which is his creation to begin with. NO OUTSIDE POWER IS MAKING HIM DO ALL THIS. the very reason why trinity and jesus being god is so silly is because god CREATED all the existing conditions and concepts that make people suffer and go to hell to begin with, he answers to NO1 and yet for people to be saved he has to OFFER a part of himself {or the whole as many christians believe} to the world and actually go through the subjectively negetive things that HE FASHIONED and only then can he make people people go to heaven. the point being, one offers up oneself as a sacrifice to SUM1 ELSE! and if god had to suffer and DIE on the cross for humans to go to heaven then that sacrifice was meant to be in place of humans in the EYES OF SUM HIGHER AUTHORITY WHO ACCEPTS THE SACRIFICE AS RELEVANT COMPENSATION FOR THE LACK OF SOULS IN HELL!!!!!! u cant simply say that both the sacrifice and the higher authority was the same person, it doesnt work that way. sacrifice means that god{creator and controller of all things} CUD NOT keep all the souls from suffering and going to hell{both his creations and under his complete jurisdiction} WITHOUT doing this one act meaning he was UNABLE to do it any other way than this which gives proof for him not being omnipotent even in his own creation and jurisdiction and also of a higher authority to WHOM the sacrifice was made TO. you cant simply make a sacrifice to your ownself when ur the creater sustainer and controller of all things for whom uve made the sacrifice fo{along with everything affecting those things}.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
all of those statements are based on underlying assumptions and axioms which have no evidence to back them up and much evidence to disprove them. assuming though that every 1 of the statements u made is true and looking at nothing else, we can, at best say that god is not all hate/anger/detest/unjustice, from that u cud make a further assumption that he MAY be in some part of of his constituents or arising, LOVE, {nicest possible interpretation}. seeing as he HIMSELF set up the traps that lead to hell, he himself created hell, he himself created the tendancy of humans to fall into the traps that he created, and furthermore he is himself the imposer of the criteria that send a person to hell and is the only creater and administrater of pain that a person feals in hell. furthermore he is the very creator of pain/suffering and also the creator of hate/pain/despair/rage/suffering and every other negetive emotion{see to it that since he is all powerful he did all this things fulloy knowingly and willingly without any outside intervention}. he also knows exactly which people will fall for the traps he created and who wont and still blames the people, also he needs nor can GET absolutely ANYTHING from his followers, their offerings, beliefs, teaching etc, yet he commands them to follow him/glorify him{a logical contradiction}/worship him, and those that dont accept him through jesus{dont even get me started on that} go to hell which is his creation to begin with. NO OUTSIDE POWER IS MAKING HIM DO ALL THIS. the very reason why trinity and jesus being god is so silly is because god CREATED all the existing conditions and concepts that make people suffer and go to hell to begin with, he answers to NO1 and yet for people to be saved he has to OFFER a part of himself {or the whole as many christians believe} to the world and actually go through the subjectively negetive things that HE FASHIONED and only then can he make people people go to heaven. the point being, one offers up oneself as a sacrifice to SUM1 ELSE! and if god had to suffer and DIE on the cross for humans to go to heaven then that sacrifice was meant to be in place of humans in the EYES OF SUM HIGHER AUTHORITY WHO ACCEPTS THE SACRIFICE AS RELEVANT COMPENSATION FOR THE LACK OF SOULS IN HELL!!!!!! u cant simply say that both the sacrifice and the higher authority was the same person, it doesnt work that way. sacrifice means that god{creator and controller of all things} CUD NOT keep all the souls from suffering and going to hell{both his creations and under his complete jurisdiction} WITHOUT doing this one act meaning he was UNABLE to do it any other way than this which gives proof for him not being omnipotent even in his own creation and jurisdiction and also of a higher authority to WHOM the sacrifice was made TO. you cant simply make a sacrifice to your ownself when ur the creater sustainer and controller of all things for whom uve made the sacrifice fo{along with everything affecting those things}.

God did not create any tendency for anyone to fall into any traps. The only thing that God did that could be construed by you to be wrong is giving you a free will. Had God made you a robot then you would not be a sinner because you would not be able to choose sin. You would only be able to choose holiness. But God (in His wisdom and love) created you with a free will so that you could freely choose how to live your life. Don't blame God if you end up in Hell. You could choose to serve Him or choose to do your own thing.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
all of those statements are based on underlying assumptions and axioms which have no evidence to back them up and much evidence to disprove them. assuming though that every 1 of the statements u made is true and looking at nothing else, we can, at best say that god is not all hate/anger/detest/unjustice, from that u cud make a further assumption that he MAY be in some part of of his constituents or arising, LOVE, {nicest possible interpretation}. seeing as he HIMSELF set up the traps that lead to hell, he himself created hell, he himself created the tendancy of humans to fall into the traps that he created, and furthermore he is himself the imposer of the criteria that send a person to hell and is the only creater and administrater of pain that a person feals in hell. furthermore he is the very creator of pain/suffering and also the creator of hate/pain/despair/rage/suffering and every other negetive emotion{see to it that since he is all powerful he did all this things fulloy knowingly and willingly without any outside intervention}. he also knows exactly which people will fall for the traps he created and who wont and still blames the people, also he needs nor can GET absolutely ANYTHING from his followers, their offerings, beliefs, teaching etc, yet he commands them to follow him/glorify him{a logical contradiction}/worship him, and those that dont accept him through jesus{dont even get me started on that} go to hell which is his creation to begin with. NO OUTSIDE POWER IS MAKING HIM DO ALL THIS. the very reason why trinity and jesus being god is so silly is because god CREATED all the existing conditions and concepts that make people suffer and go to hell to begin with, he answers to NO1 and yet for people to be saved he has to OFFER a part of himself {or the whole as many christians believe} to the world and actually go through the subjectively negetive things that HE FASHIONED and only then can he make people people go to heaven. the point being, one offers up oneself as a sacrifice to SUM1 ELSE! and if god had to suffer and DIE on the cross for humans to go to heaven then that sacrifice was meant to be in place of humans in the EYES OF SUM HIGHER AUTHORITY WHO ACCEPTS THE SACRIFICE AS RELEVANT COMPENSATION FOR THE LACK OF SOULS IN HELL!!!!!! u cant simply say that both the sacrifice and the higher authority was the same person, it doesnt work that way. sacrifice means that god{creator and controller of all things} CUD NOT keep all the souls from suffering and going to hell{both his creations and under his complete jurisdiction} WITHOUT doing this one act meaning he was UNABLE to do it any other way than this which gives proof for him not being omnipotent even in his own creation and jurisdiction and also of a higher authority to WHOM the sacrifice was made TO. you cant simply make a sacrifice to your ownself when ur the creater sustainer and controller of all things for whom uve made the sacrifice fo{along with everything affecting those things}.

illl repost this as u completely avoided all arguments and gave ur own dogmatic view on the whole subbject with 0 evidence. and ur wrong, god created EVERYTHING! including hell and the criteria for entering hell{which i call the TRAPS, unless u deny that god is the creator of the criteria for entrance into hell. logically u cud say that u dont like the translation TRAP as it gives a certain view to which u cant adhere[n ive given reason why it is a trap] but u cant deny that god created the criteria for entrance or saving from hell}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
illl repost this as u completely avoided all arguments and gave ur own dogmatic view on the whole subbject with 0 evidence. and ur wrong, god created EVERYTHING! including hell and the criteria for entering hell{which i call the TRAPS, unless u deny that god is the creator of the criteria for entrance into hell. logically u cud say that u dont like the translation TRAP as it gives a certain view to which u cant adhere[n ive given reason why it is a trap] but u cant deny that god created the criteria for entrance or

Here is what I said leonheartmm:

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"God did not create any tendency for anyone to fall into any traps...."

So, as I aforestated if you go to Hell it is your fault not God's.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

Here is what I said leonheartmm:

[/color]

So, as I aforestated if you go to Hell it is your fault not God's. [/B]

and here is what i posted as a reply to that

"ur wrong, god created EVERYTHING! including hell and the criteria for entering hell{which i call the TRAPS, unless u deny that god is the creator of the criteria for entrance into hell. logically u cud say that u dont like the translation TRAP as it gives a certain view to which u cant adhere[n ive given reason why it is a trap] but u cant deny that god created the criteria for entrance or saving from hell}"

restating doesnt help arguments. specially when its been dealt with before. please learn to READ.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
all of those statements are based on underlying assumptions and axioms which have no evidence to back them up and much evidence to disprove them. assuming though that every 1 of the statements u made is true and looking at nothing else, we can, at best say that god is not all hate/anger/detest/unjustice, from that u cud make a further assumption that he MAY be in some part of of his constituents or arising, LOVE, {nicest possible interpretation}. seeing as he HIMSELF set up the traps that lead to hell, he himself created hell, he himself created the tendancy of humans to fall into the traps that he created, and furthermore he is himself the imposer of the criteria that send a person to hell and is the only creater and administrater of pain that a person feals in hell. furthermore he is the very creator of pain/suffering and also the creator of hate/pain/despair/rage/suffering and every other negetive emotion{see to it that since he is all powerful he did all this things fulloy knowingly and willingly without any outside intervention}. he also knows exactly which people will fall for the traps he created and who wont and still blames the people, also he needs nor can GET absolutely ANYTHING from his followers, their offerings, beliefs, teaching etc, yet he commands them to follow him/glorify him{a logical contradiction}/worship him, and those that dont accept him through jesus{dont even get me started on that} go to hell which is his creation to begin with. NO OUTSIDE POWER IS MAKING HIM DO ALL THIS. the very reason why trinity and jesus being god is so silly is because god CREATED all the existing conditions and concepts that make people suffer and go to hell to begin with, he answers to NO1 and yet for people to be saved he has to OFFER a part of himself {or the whole as many christians believe} to the world and actually go through the subjectively negetive things that HE FASHIONED and only then can he make people people go to heaven. the point being, one offers up oneself as a sacrifice to SUM1 ELSE! and if god had to suffer and DIE on the cross for humans to go to heaven then that sacrifice was meant to be in place of humans in the EYES OF SUM HIGHER AUTHORITY WHO ACCEPTS THE SACRIFICE AS RELEVANT COMPENSATION FOR THE LACK OF SOULS IN HELL!!!!!! u cant simply say that both the sacrifice and the higher authority was the same person, it doesnt work that way. sacrifice means that god{creator and controller of all things} CUD NOT keep all the souls from suffering and going to hell{both his creations and under his complete jurisdiction} WITHOUT doing this one act meaning he was UNABLE to do it any other way than this which gives proof for him not being omnipotent even in his own creation and jurisdiction and also of a higher authority to WHOM the sacrifice was made TO. you cant simply make a sacrifice to your ownself when ur the creater sustainer and controller of all things for whom uve made the sacrifice fo{along with everything affecting those things}.

repost, please READ. all the points here remain unaddressed.

Learn2spacing and grammar.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and here is what i posted as a reply to that

"ur wrong, god created EVERYTHING! including hell and the criteria for entering hell{which i call the TRAPS, unless u deny that god is the creator of the criteria for entrance into hell. logically u cud say that u dont like the translation TRAP as it gives a certain view to which u cant adhere[n ive given reason why it is a trap] but u cant deny that god created the criteria for entrance or saving from hell}"

restating doesnt help arguments. specially when its been dealt with before. please learn to READ.

My answer has not changed: if you go to Hell it is your choice not God's regardless of the "criteria," as you have put it.

You have put words in my mouth. I never said that I don't like the translation "trap."

Originally posted by leonheartmm
repost, please READ. all the points here remain unaddressed.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Leonheartmm, you have failed to factor free will into the equation. You talk a lot about what God has done without mentioning one thing that you have done wrong (not that God has done anything wrong). No matter how you analyze, expound, construe, and logically reason your argument against God's judgment and wisdom, you are still the one to blame for your own actions. Yes, God created Hell, but the whole "God created the tendency for people to fall into the trap" statement is nothing short of barking up the wrong tree on you part. God has not created any tendency for people to fall, each person is drawn away by their [B]own lust and enticed (lust can come in many different forms, not just sexual because it denotes "strong desire," but in a negative vein). The bottom line is that if God had never given humanity a free will, then no one would have been capable of going to Hell. Do you fully understand what free will is? Do you realize how much God risked by creating every person with the power to choose? He risked being blamed for their actions (which is exactly what you are doing). God risked being misunderstood, criticized, and falsely accused. So much for God given you a choice about loving Him or not, He could have made you an automaton (automatons have no will). [/B]

the REASON i didnt touch muc on free will is that it leads to illogical discussions with believers to a much more ridiculous and nonsensical extent than almost any other topic. since by its very nature, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolant, omnipresent{or ANY single or combination of the mentioned omni's as believed by christianity} completely and flatly rules out anything resembling true free will. there is no room to play with words here and it leads to completely illogical discussions of believers trying to reject evidence as mentioned before therfore i wont go into it unless u really want me to{srry i really cant spare much time on the nest these days at ALL my As exams are right around the corner and i havents studied SHIT!} i WILL however address the limited situation u discussed without stating the paradoxes in the argument's very foundation.

now assume that u have a human X. human X has all the instintcs of an average human and also HAS{just so we agree in the discussion} TRUE free will to choose anything he/she chooses todo without outside influence, specially form god or fate or anything like that. now UNLESS god SANCTIONS a number or even one of the possible actions X would take as leading to hell, person X will NEVER go to hell. there are infact MANY things which GOD judged{if any1 or anythings else did please enlighten me} are deserving of a person{person X in this case} to go to HELL n never enter HEAVEN. god is also aware that X being his creation, wud suffer and generally avoid as much as possible the suffering of hell. also all possible acts that X cud do can not be termed as good or bad or deserving of hell of heaven if god DID NOT JUDGE THEM FIT TO BE EITHER{againt if these were determined by any other entity or at random please illuminate me} thus the REASON X wud go to hell{if he does} due to his ACTS OF FREE WILL, is NOT because theres anything truly different about the so called bad acts and good acts or the ACTS as entities OUTSIDE god lead the free willed X to heaven/hell. NO, its because GOD judged certain ACTS to be deserving of HELL and others deserving of HEAVEN.

DO note that god is not accontable or INFLUENCED by any outside power, so his hand wasnt FORCED to choose the criteria for entering heaven of hell based on ACTS OF FREE WILL{so called by u} he chose them COMPLETELY due to his OWN FREE AND UNAFFECTED WILL! and thus NO 1, other than god can be held accountable for creating the conditions and criterias for entering hell{not to mention he CREATED hell ITSELF! without any1 forcing him to, completely because HE willed it without any other reason} THAS why even if person X has FREE will, the only way and only reason hed go to hell is because GOD willed that he be sent to hell for some of his POSSIBLE free willed acts for no other reason than god's personal jugdement desired it{AGAIN, if theres any1 else who made these rules PLEASE let me know, also let me know if anything outside god created hell} and required it. THEREFORE, the only one who has the ultimate and reletive responsibility for FREE willed beings sent to hell is NONE other than god himself and NOT the FREE will of the person going to hell.

this is the basis and it tells us that god IS responsible for people ending up in hell. any argument u bring up to counter wud be untrue if it doesnt deny this basis and succesfully counter it and deny THIS scheme of things. i cud go on about how god has created a system for FREE WILLED people which FAVOUR to an extreme extenttheir going to hell too WITHOUT even looking at the debate about the fundamental concepts and how after establishing these concepts the apparent god does a LOT more actively to make sure that most end up in hell{putting even greater malicious responsibility on him for FREE willed people ending up in hell} but thas just a waste of words as the base is flawed to begin with. n i havent even discussed{nor plan to unless odd circumstances arise} the inconcistancy of the characteristics without which the biblical god wudnt be god and its leading contradictions to there even existing FREE WILLED beings.

JesusIsAlive: Did you know that God himself is gay? Leviticus 69:

The Lord lieth with men and thou its children will not do the same

Did you also know that God love buttsecks too? John 13:

The Lord had buttsecks with Lucifer.

I want to apologize in advance for responding to your post in this manner after you asked me not to. It is just easier for me to address each statement because I can see it as I am responding to it when it is this lengthy.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

What is omnibenevolant? Why do you keep using this word?

combination of the mentioned omni's as believed by christianity} completely and flatly rules out anything resembling true free will. there is no room to play with words here and it leads to completely illogical discussions of believers trying to reject evidence as mentioned before therfore i wont go into it unless u really want me to{srry i really cant

Yes, I really want you to go into the discussion about free will because I believe that it will clear up your misconceptions about God.

spare much time on the nest these days at ALL my As exams are right around the corner and i havents studied SHIT!} i WILL however address the limited situation u discussed without stating the paradoxes in the argument's very foundation.

By all means study for your exams, they are a priority. We can pick this discussion up where we left off.

now assume that u have a human X. human X has all the instintcs of an average human and also HAS{just so we agree in the discussion} TRUE free will to choose anything he/she chooses todo without outside influence, specially form god or fate or anything like that. now UNLESS god SANCTIONS a number or even one of the possible actions X would take as leading to hell, person X will NEVER go to hell. there are infact MANY things which GOD judged{if any1 or anythings else did please enlighten me} are deserving of a person{person X in this case} to go to HELL n never enter HEAVEN. god is also aware that X being his creation, wud suffer and generally avoid as much as possible the suffering of hell. also all possible acts that X cud do can not be termed as good or bad or deserving of hell of heaven if god DID NOT JUDGE THEM FIT TO BE EITHER{againt if these were determined by any other entity or at random please illuminate me} thus the REASON X wud go to hell{if he does} due to his ACTS OF FREE WILL, is NOT because theres anything truly different about the so called bad acts and good acts or the ACTS as entities OUTSIDE god lead the free willed X to heaven/hell. NO, its because GOD judged certain ACTS to be deserving of HELL and others deserving of HEAVEN.

This is not true. All people are born destined for Hell because everyone is born a sinner. The Bible states that the wages of sin is death. Sin separates a person from God. God is holy, we are sinful; therefore, we cannot stand in His presence. Here is the dilemma: there are only two places for a person's spirit to go at death (which is the effect of sin): Heaven (i.e. where God is) or Hell (i.e. a place of separation from God, and a place of torment). God has made a way for a person to become holy "enough" or righteous (according to His standards) to stand in His holy presence. That Way is through His Son Jesus Christ. No person (no matter how good they are or try to be in this life) can ever reach, meet, achieve, or attain God's standard of righteousness. The only Person ever to do this is His Son Jesus Christ. So, here is what God does: God credits the righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ to every person who chooses (of their own free will) to put their faith or confident trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. To trust Jesus the Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is in essence trusting in everything that He accomplished for you. Jesus lived a sinless life then died for your/our sin/sins so that we could be righteous in God's eyes. It is simply a matter of receiving credit for something that you have not done.

This really is the heart of the gospel, receiving credit (through Jesus Christ) for something that you do not deserve, have not done, and could not in your own strength or merit do.

You have not lived a sinless life, have you leonheartmm? (I know that I haven’t). But you (through Jesus Christ) can still be pronounced “righteous” by Almighty God (now you know that if God says that you are righteous—then you must be righteous! Praise God forevermore!) That has got to be the best, highest, most valuable compliment that anyone can ever receive because it comes from God. The Bible states that God cannot, and that it is impossible, for God to lie

So, the only "thing" deserving of Hell is failure to take advantage of what Jesus Christ did for you. It really is simple, anyone can do it. Anyone who is still alive can be righteous and go to Heaven simply by trusting in Someone Who is righteous and then receiving credit for His righteousness in your life. It is Christ’s righteousness that classifies you as righteous and makes it possible for you to go to Heaven at death. If you try to go to Heaven on your own merit you will fail because you are not sin-less (like Jesus), you are a sin-ner.

Do you understand this leonheartmm?

DO note that god is not accontable or INFLUENCED by any outside power, so his hand wasnt FORCED to choose the criteria for entering heaven of hell based on ACTS OF FREE WILL{so called by u} he chose them COMPLETELY due to his OWN FREE AND UNAFFECTED WILL! and thus NO 1, other than god can be held accountable for creating the conditions and criterias for entering hell{not to mention he CREATED hell ITSELF! without any1 forcing him to, completely because HE willed it without any other reason} THAS why even if person X has

According to the Bible God prepared Hell (i.e. everlasting fire) for the devil and his angels—not for people. But people can and will go there if they fail to make the right choice. It is your fault if you go to Hell not God’s.

FREE will, the only way and only reason hed go to hell is because GOD willed that he be sent to hell for some of his POSSIBLE free willed acts for no other

I have already explained this in the previous essay above this one.

reason than god's personal jugdement desired it{AGAIN, if theres any1 else who made these rules PLEASE let me know, also let me know if anything outside god created hell} and required it. THEREFORE, the only one who has the ultimate and reletive responsibility for FREE willed beings sent to hell is NONE other than god himself and NOT the FREE will of the person going to hell.

I have just explained this in the sentence above this one beginning with, “According to the Bible….”

this is the basis and it tells us that god IS responsible for people ending up in hell. any argument u bring up to counter wud be untrue if it doesnt deny this basis and succesfully counter it and deny THIS scheme of things. i cud go on about how god has created a system for FREE WILLED people which FAVOUR to

an extreme extenttheir going to hell too WITHOUT even looking at the debate about the fundamental concepts and how after establishing these concepts the apparent god does a LOT more actively to make sure that most end up in hell{putting even greater malicious responsibility on him for FREE willed people ending up in hell} but thas just a waste of words as the base is flawed to begin with. n i havent even discussed{nor plan to unless odd circumstances arise} the inconcistancy of the characteristics without which the biblical god wudnt be god and its leading contradictions to there even existing FREE WILLED beings.

No matter how you understand the concept of free will leonheartmm, the ultimate responsibility for where someone ends up at death will be based on whether that person has put their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation from their sin or whether they failed to put their trust in Jesus for salvation from sin. There is no other way for someone to end up in Hell for eternity.

Re-read this paragraph leonheart:

"...So, the only "thing" deserving of Hell is failure to take advantage of what Jesus Christ did for you. It really is simple, anyone can do it. Anyone who is still alive can be righteous and go to Heaven simply by trusting in Someone Who is righteous and then receiving credit for His righteousness in your life. It is Christ’s righteousness that classifies you as righteous and makes it possible for you to go to Heaven at death. If you try to go to Heaven on your own merit you will fail because you are not sin-less (like Jesus), you are a sin-ner...."

again. u repeated ur old points without understanding that the last post was an adequate REPLY to. stubbornly adhering and repeating can at BEST make ur opposing debater give up hope n leave the discussion as u refuse to understand or accept anything truthful said.

omnibenevolant= ALL LOVING {omni=all benevolant=loving potent=powerful scient=seeing/knowing}

you DONT wanna get in a discussion about free will{albeit it be a nonrhetorical and not closeminded}cause thas where the idea of an omni ANYTHING god completely contradicts itself and the fact that free will can exist.

"This is not true. All people are born destined for Hell because everyone is born a sinner. The Bible states that the wages of sin is death. Sin separates a person from God. God is holy, we are sinful; therefore, we cannot stand in His presence. Here is the dilemma: there are only two places for a person's spirit to go at death (which is the effect of sin): Heaven (i.e. where God is) or Hell (i.e. a place of separation from God, and a place of torment). God has made a way for a person to become holy "enough" or righteous (according to His standards) to stand in His holy presence. That Way is through His Son Jesus Christ. No person (no matter how good they are or try to be in this life) can ever reach, meet, achieve, or attain God's standard of righteousness. The only Person ever to do this is His Son Jesus Christ. So, here is what God does: God credits the righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ to every person who chooses (of their own free will) to put their faith or confident trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. To trust Jesus the Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is in essence trusting in everything that He accomplished for you. Jesus lived a sinless life then died for your/our sin/sins so that we could be righteous in God's eyes. It is simply a matter of receiving credit for something that you have not done.

This really is the heart of the gospel, receiving credit (through Jesus Christ) for something that you do not deserve, have not done, and could not in your own strength or merit do.

You have not lived a sinless life, have you leonheartmm? (I know that I haven’t). But you (through Jesus Christ) can still be pronounced “righteous” by Almighty God (now you know that if God says that you are righteous—then you must be righteous! Praise God forevermore!) That has got to be the best, highest, most valuable compliment that anyone can ever receive because it comes from God. The Bible states that God cannot, and that it is impossible, for God to lie

So, the only "thing" deserving of Hell is failure to take advantage of what Jesus Christ did for you. It really is simple, anyone can do it. Anyone who is still alive can be righteous and go to Heaven simply by trusting in Someone Who is righteous and then receiving credit for His righteousness in your life. It is Christ’s righteousness that classifies you as righteous and makes it possible for you to go to Heaven at death. If you try to go to Heaven on your own merit you will fail because you are not sin-less (like Jesus), you are a sin-ner.

Do you understand this leonheartmm? "

first off if god CAN NOT lie, than he is UNABLE to lie and a being UNABLE to lie is a being which is confined {remember it isnt, DOES NOT lie, it CAN NOT} and a being who is confined in his choices to do things is a being who does not have the power to do sumthing, HENCE ur description is in direct opposition to god being OMNIPOTENT{all powerful} and thats again a restating of the things that i have addressed in the last post and the one before. i want a REPLY from u that counters my given points, u havent given one in there in any way shape or form. just retstated ur beliefs which dont counter the argument and come to the conclusion in the end that its satisfactory enough tpo counter all the points given by me, guess what, they dont even come close. also the argument of ORIGINAL sin proves that GOD is the one who created actively form the very beginning the CONDITIONS{traps } for humans to go to hell for, as even an innocent child who has done nothing to warrant anything bad will by default go to hell unless he ACCEPTS jesus{and if he dies before he is of age to accept jesus , he goes to hell, this is where the tradition of baptizing newborns come from which} the whole idea of original sin is ridiculous. just because adam, one man, sinned, therefore the entire unborn human race is doomed unless they find a single small and logically impossible way to get out of it?! what nonsense. did adam ask me before taking the fruit?! why shud i be held responsible? illogical.

"According to the Bible God prepared Hell (i.e. everlasting fire) for the devil and his angels—not for people. But people can and will go there if they fail to make the right choice. It is your fault if you go to Hell not God’s."

so even if u play with words, u ADMIT that god did indeed CREATE hell. therefore my previous arguemt holds, he created it willingly and if he DIDNT create it, no one wud go to hell, he is RESPONSIBLE FOR HELL ITSELF'S EXISTANCE, therefore any1 who GOES to hell is not tresponsible for it because god creates hell to begin with and makes the criteria for entrance or saving from hell. and if he didnt create it for people than WHY ARE PEOPLE ALLOWED IN IT?! are u saying an all knowing god did not KNOW when creating it or before that people wud go to hell?! was he then IGNORANT in saying that its only meant for devil and his angels?{btw the RIGHT choice that u speak of has also been determined by ur GOD, there is no higher authority determining it other than him}

"No matter how you understand the concept of free will leonheartmm, the ultimate responsibility for where someone ends up at death will be based on whether that person has put their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation from their sin or whether they failed to put their trust in Jesus for salvation from sin. There is no other way for someone to end up in Hell for eternity. "

completely and utterly wrong! u failed to read anything i posted{or so it seems form this post}

Re-read this paragraph leonheart:

"...So, the only "thing" deserving of Hell is failure to take advantage of what Jesus Christ did for you. It really is simple, anyone can do it. Anyone who is still alive can be righteous and go to Heaven simply by trusting in Someone Who is righteous and then receiving credit for His righteousness in your life. It is Christ’s righteousness that classifies you as righteous and makes it possible for you to go to Heaven at death. If you try to go to Heaven on your own merit you will fail because you are not sin-less (like Jesus), you are a sin-ner...." "

lol,, RE read this post.
"It is CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS that classifies you as righteous and makes it possible for you to go to Heaven at death. If you try to go to Heaven on your own merit you will fail"

PROVING that ur god did infact creaete the criteria for hell, and is fully responsible for it. anyelse who tries to go on his/her own MERIT{criteria} will FAIL! open ur eyes JIA.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the REASON i didnt touch muc on free will is that it leads to illogical discussions with believers to a much more ridiculous and nonsensical extent than almost any other topic. since by its very nature, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolant, omnipresent{or ANY single or combination of the mentioned omni's as believed by christianity} completely and flatly rules out anything resembling true free will. there is no room to play with words here and it leads to completely illogical discussions of believers trying to reject evidence as mentioned before therfore i wont go into it unless u really want me to{srry i really cant spare much time on the nest these days at ALL my As exams are right around the corner and i havents studied SHIT!} i WILL however address the limited situation u discussed without stating the paradoxes in the argument's very foundation.

now assume that u have a human X. human X has all the instintcs of an average human and also HAS{just so we agree in the discussion} TRUE free will to choose anything he/she chooses todo without outside influence, specially form god or fate or anything like that. now UNLESS god SANCTIONS a number or even one of the possible actions X would take as leading to hell, person X will NEVER go to hell. there are infact MANY things which GOD judged{if any1 or anythings else did please enlighten me} are deserving of a person{person X in this case} to go to HELL n never enter HEAVEN. god is also aware that X being his creation, wud suffer and generally avoid as much as possible the suffering of hell. also all possible acts that X cud do can not be termed as good or bad or deserving of hell of heaven if god DID NOT JUDGE THEM FIT TO BE EITHER{againt if these were determined by any other entity or at random please illuminate me} thus the REASON X wud go to hell{if he does} due to his ACTS OF FREE WILL, is NOT because theres anything truly different about the so called bad acts and good acts or the ACTS as entities OUTSIDE god lead the free willed X to heaven/hell. NO, its because GOD judged certain ACTS to be deserving of HELL and others deserving of HEAVEN.

DO note that god is not accontable or INFLUENCED by any outside power, so his hand wasnt FORCED to choose the criteria for entering heaven of hell based on ACTS OF FREE WILL{so called by u} he chose them COMPLETELY due to his OWN FREE AND UNAFFECTED WILL! and thus NO 1, other than god can be held accountable for creating the conditions and criterias for entering hell{not to mention he CREATED hell ITSELF! without any1 forcing him to, completely because HE willed it without any other reason} THAS why even if person X has FREE will, the only way and only reason hed go to hell is because GOD willed that he be sent to hell for some of his POSSIBLE free willed acts for no other reason than god's personal jugdement desired it{AGAIN, if theres any1 else who made these rules PLEASE let me know, also let me know if anything outside god created hell} and required it. THEREFORE, the only one who has the ultimate and reletive responsibility for FREE willed beings sent to hell is NONE other than god himself and NOT the FREE will of the person going to hell.

this is the basis and it tells us that god IS responsible for people ending up in hell. any argument u bring up to counter wud be untrue if it doesnt deny this basis and succesfully counter it and deny THIS scheme of things. i cud go on about how god has created a system for FREE WILLED people which FAVOUR to an extreme extenttheir going to hell too WITHOUT even looking at the debate about the fundamental concepts and how after establishing these concepts the apparent god does a LOT more actively to make sure that most end up in hell{putting even greater malicious responsibility on him for FREE willed people ending up in hell} but thas just a waste of words as the base is flawed to begin with. n i havent even discussed{nor plan to unless odd circumstances arise} the inconcistancy of the characteristics without which the biblical god wudnt be god and its leading contradictions to there even existing FREE WILLED beings.

REPOST since u completely failed to adress any points with anything other than a restating of ur beliefs.also u havent countered my last 3 posts at all. or the ones before that. i think its safe to say that u wont.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

You have not stated anything truthful.

omnibenevolant= ALL LOVING {omni=all benevolant=loving potent=powerful scient=seeing/knowing}

you DONT wanna get in a discussion about free will{albeit it be a nonrhetorical and not closeminded}cause thas where the idea of an omni ANYTHING god completely contradicts itself and the fact that free will can exist.

I do want to get in a discussion about free will. In fact I have already been in a number of discussions with you about free will.

"This is not true. All people are born destined for Hell because everyone is born a sinner. The Bible states that the wages of sin is death. Sin separates a person from God. God is holy, we are sinful; therefore, we cannot stand in His presence. Here is the dilemma: there are only two places for a person's spirit to go at death (which is the effect of sin): Heaven (i.e. where God is) or Hell (i.e. a place of separation from God, and a place of torment). God has made a way for a person to become holy "enough" or righteous (according to His standards) to stand in His holy presence. That Way is through His Son Jesus Christ. No person (no matter how good they are or try to be in this life) can ever reach, meet, achieve, or attain God's standard of righteousness. The only Person ever to do this is His Son Jesus Christ. So, here is what God does: God credits the righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ to every person who chooses (of their own free will) to put their faith or confident trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. To trust Jesus the Christ as your personal Lord and Savior is in essence trusting in everything that He accomplished for you. Jesus lived a sinless life then died for your/our sin/sins so that we could be righteous in God's eyes. It is simply a matter of receiving credit for something that you have not done.

This really is the heart of the gospel, receiving credit (through Jesus Christ) for something that you do not deserve, have not done, and could not in your own strength or merit do.

You have not lived a sinless life, have you leonheartmm? (I know that I haven’t). But you (through Jesus Christ) can still be pronounced “righteous” by Almighty God (now you know that if God says that you are righteous—then you must be righteous! Praise God forevermore!) That has got to be the best, highest, most valuable compliment that anyone can ever receive because it comes from God. The Bible states that God cannot, and that it is impossible, for God to lie

So, the only "thing" deserving of Hell is failure to take advantage of what Jesus Christ did for you. It really is simple, anyone can do it. Anyone who is still alive can be righteous and go to Heaven simply by trusting in Someone Who is righteous and then receiving credit for His righteousness in your life. It is Christ’s righteousness that classifies you as righteous and makes it possible for you to go to Heaven at death. If you try to go to Heaven on your own merit you will fail because you are not sin-less (like Jesus), you are a sin-ner.

Do you understand this leonheartmm? "

first off if god CAN NOT lie, than he is UNABLE to lie and a being UNABLE to lie is a being which is confined {remember it isnt, DOES NOT lie, it CAN NOT} and a being who is confined in his choices to do things is a being who does not have the power to do sumthing, HENCE ur description is in direct opposition to god being OMNIPOTENT{all powerful} and thats again a restating of the things that i have addressed in the last post and the one before. i want a REPLY from u that counters my given points, u havent given one in there in any way shape or form. just retstated ur beliefs which dont counter the argument and come to the conclusion in the end that its satisfactory enough tpo counter all the points given by me, guess what, they dont even come close.

Not lying does not negate God’s omnipotence. God is still Almighty (i.e. All-powerful). God by nature is sinless, holy, righteous, just, and good, which presupposes that God is not sinful, unholy, unrighteous, unjust, or evil. This is not a limitation but a reality. There is no intrinsic value in being able to lie anyway because it is deceptive, dishonest, uncaring, and just plain evil. Why should God be able to do something evil as lying to somehow authenticate or validate His omnipotence? Your logic is nonsensical. The whole, “God can’t lie so then He is not All-powerful” argument is the worst argument that I have heard on this forum to date. That is like saying that a parent does not love their child because they cannot afford to send them to private school, or buy them everything that they want for Christmas, or spend every waking moment with them, or solve all of their homework problems, or feed them their favorite foods all the time, or love them any more than they love them now. Really, leonheartmm, your right maybe we should stop corresponding.

also the argument of ORIGINAL sin proves that GOD is the one who created actively form the very beginning the CONDITIONS{traps } for humans to go to hell for, as even an innocent child who has done nothing to warrant anything bad will by default go to hell unless he ACCEPTS jesus{and if he dies before he is of age to accept jesus , he goes to hell, this is where the tradition of baptizing newborns come from which} the whole idea of original sin is ridiculous. just because adam, one man, sinned, therefore the entire unborn human race is doomed unless they find a single small and logically impossible way to get out of it?! what nonsense. did adam ask me before taking the fruit?! why shud i be held responsible? illogical.

What!? God has not created any traps or conditions for humans to go to Hell. No child will go to Hell because a child is not capable of understanding fully the gravity of their actions or the salvation message (perhaps there exists an exception to this rule as just as there are exceptions with other situations).

God only holds you responsible insofar that you have heard the salvation message, understand it, and then reject it. What Adam did in the Garden of Eden is irrelevant because you have an opportunity to negate as it were what he did (i.e. what Adam set in motion for the rest of humanity). You are still responsible for every sin that you commit. Yes you were born a sinner, but remaining a “sinner” (this is a designation not necessarily a description of what you do per se) is your choice. If you choose to remain a sinner and then die and go to Hell it is your fault. Don’t blame God. God made a way for you to undo as it were what Adam did so that you don’t have to go to Hell. But if you reject God’s plan of salvation through Christ you have sealed your own fate. And you know what? You have no one audience before God, and no one to shift blame to except yourself. You will die condemned. Stop trying to pass the buck, blaming Adam for his sin when you sin every day and still won’t come to Christ to be saved so that you could go to Heaven. Every day that you reject Christ is a sin, but yet you want to point the finger of blame at Adam for his single act of sin. Your rationale that you should not be held responsible for what Adam did has no grounds for complaint because God made a Way through His Son Jesus to nullify what Adam did—and you still won’t repent. In my opinion Adam is more righteous in my eyes than you. I believe that Adam repented, but at that time he did not have a Savior to believe and trust in to wash away his sin. I believe that Adam would not have hesitated to confess Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. Jesus is available to wash away your sin so that you can avoid Hell and yet you still balk at God. If you go to Hell leonheartmm, based on the circumstances it will be condign punishment.

"According to the Bible God prepared Hell (i.e. everlasting fire) for the devil and his angels—not for people. But people can and will go there if they fail to make the right choice. It is your fault if you go to Hell not God’s."

so even if u play with words, u ADMIT that god did indeed CREATE hell. therefore my previous arguemt holds, he created it willingly and if he DIDNT create it, no one wud go to hell, he is RESPONSIBLE FOR HELL ITSELF'S EXISTANCE, therefore any1 who GOES to hell is not tresponsible for it because god creates hell to begin with and makes the criteria for entrance or saving from hell. and if he didnt create it for people than WHY ARE PEOPLE ALLOWED IN IT?! are u saying an all knowing god did not KNOW when creating it or before that people wud go to hell?! was he then IGNORANT in saying that its only meant for devil and his angels?{btw the RIGHT choice that u speak of has also been determined by ur GOD, there is no higher authority determining it other than him}

What play on words?

Leonheartmm, you clearly do not understand the dynamics of sin and its ramifications. God created Hell for the devil and his angels if you go there don’t blame God.

People are allowed into Hell because God created people with a free will. Has it ever occurred to you that some people may not want to love God or go to Heaven? Believe or not some people do not like God, they want nothing to do with Him. They would rather do their own thing now and suffer the consequences of their actions later.

"No matter how you understand the concept of free will leonheartmm, the ultimate responsibility for where someone ends up at death will be based on whether that person has put their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation from their sin or whether they failed to put their trust in Jesus for salvation from sin. There is no other way for someone to end up in Hell for eternity. "

completely and utterly wrong! u failed to read anything i posted{or so it seems form this post}

Re-read this paragraph leonheart:

"...So, the only "thing" deserving of Hell is failure to take advantage of what Jesus Christ did for you. It really is simple, anyone can do it. Anyone who is still alive can be righteous and go to Heaven simply by trusting in Someone Who is righteous and then receiving credit for His righteousness in your life. It is Christ’s righteousness that classifies you as righteous and makes it possible for you to go to Heaven at death. If you try to go to Heaven on your own merit you will fail because you are not sin-less (like Jesus), you are a sin-ner...." "

lol,, RE read this post.
"It is CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS that classifies you as righteous and makes it possible for you to go to Heaven at death. If you try to go to Heaven on your own merit you will fail"

PROVING that ur god did infact creaete the criteria for hell, and is fully responsible for it. anyelse who tries to go on his/her own MERIT{criteria} will FAIL! open ur eyes JIA.

God is not fully responsible for your actions (you repeatedly fail to acknowledge and understand this important principle with regard to free will). Case in point, x manufacturer created toilet bowls so that people can relieve themselves arbitrarily. If a person chooses (of their own free will) to drink water from the toilet bowl is that the manufacturer’s fault? Is the manufacturer responsible for the decisions that that person has made? How can any logical, rational person come to the conclusion that the manufacturer is responsible for what the customer (who purchased the toilet bowl) does with the toilet bowl? This is similar to your mode of thinking leonheartmm. You are blaming God (the manufacturer of Hell) for creating a place that people choose to go to of their own free will. Just as a person is free to drink toilet water from a toilet bowl (which was created by a manufacturer), a person is free to go to Hell (which was created by a Manufacturer as it were).

Originally posted by Violent K
JesusIsAlive: Did you know that God himself is gay? Leviticus 69:

The Lord lieth with men and thou its children will not do the same

Did you also know that God love buttsecks too? John 13:

The Lord had buttsecks with Lucifer.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God is not fully responsible for [b]your actions (you repeatedly fail to acknowledge and understand this important principle with regard to free will). Case in point, x manufacturer created toilet bowls so that people can relieve themselves arbitrarily. If a person chooses (of their own free will) to drink water from the toilet bowl is that the manufacturer’s fault? Is the manufacturer responsible for the decisions that that person has made? How can any logical, rational person come to the conclusion that the manufacturer is responsible for what the customer (who purchased the toilet bowl) does with the toilet bowl? This is similar to your mode of thinking leonheartmm. You are blaming God (the manufacturer of Hell) for creating a place that people choose to go to of their own free will. Just as a person is free to drink toilet water from a toilet bowl (which was created by a manufacturer), a person is free to go to Hell (which was created by a Manufacturer as it were). [/B]