The Antithesis of Ragnos Owns All

Firstly, I want to say that I created this thread because this is a massive argument, which has spurred me to write a massive "thesis" on this subject. I don't want to post it in the other threads because there's a chance that someone will ignore it or not bother to read it all.

Second, I wrote it, but I gotta give props to Lightsnake for helping me out. LS, if you have anything to add, let me know.

Thirdly, I would like to say that I’m growing tired of your antics, Darth Sexy. You pick and choose what you want to read, and only reply to certain parts of my rebuttals. Furthermore, you have yet to provide an ounce of proof for your cause, instead, relying on more efficient arguments and reasons from Nai.

Essentially, you’re the one doing all the “daring” and none of the reasoning.

However, this is addressed specifically for ‘you’, and Nai may respond and reply as he wishes, but I want you to make sure that you do as well.

So let’s begin.

Part A.

At the risk of sounding redundant, I will of course be repeating several of my points, as you have yet to counter them and prefer to say that “the burden of proof is on me”. After this, it will be completely up to you. Otherwise, I think you’ll have proven that you’re incapable of debating against it – and the discussion will be over.

a) Marka Ragnos’s scepter allowed a moderate-level Force user (Tavion) to drain the Force from planets and specific areas, all for the ultimate goal of resurrecting Marka Ragnos. However, the origins of this scepter remain a complete mystery. Why would Marka Ragnos design a weapon with such power – and risk it falling into the hands of his enemies or his descendants, when the comics show him to be completely power-hungry and ruthless? Concluding, we have never seen Ragnos use this ability to drain the Force from others. In fact, we have never seen him display any Force power at all.

b) Naga Sadow was shown ultimately causing two stars to go supernova. But, he did so with the presence of his ship – which has been confirmed to have Force-related properties that augments the user’s own powers. We have also seen him blast through many hard surfaces with the help of his amulets, which Exar Kun later used to the same affect. He has been cited as a brilliant Sith alchemist and inventor.

The question that remains is: Could these two Force-users really perform these same feats without the help of their items?

Could Ragnos actually drain the Force from planets without his scepter? Could Sadow make two stars go supernova or blast through these substances without the assistance of his Force-powered ship or precious amulets?

We know for a fact that neither one of them have been displayed doing either. Sadow has not made two stars go supernova without being on his ship. We know that he hasn’t been able to create these energy blasts without his amulets. We know that Marka Ragnos has not been shown draining the Force from planets or artifacts without his scepter – and, even then – with his scepter as well.

Yet, you, Darth Sexy, seem to believe that they could.

How so? They’ve never been displayed doing it without them.

You state that they didn’t need these items required. But, yet, they have no other motivation to create such weapons and items. We’ve pointed that out. Both Ragnos and Sadow were pitiless, power hungry, ruthless, and independent. If they didn’t require the items to do these feats – why create them in the first place?

That is a question that you will ultimately have to answer.

However, let’s turn your own logic against you with an example involving Emperor Palpatine.

Are we to assume that, despite having multiple super weapons commissioned, that Emperor Palpatine could personally annihilate an entire planet? Surely such a feat would be on par with anything that the others have done.

Now, you might respond “we’ve never seen Palpatine blow up a planet” or “if he could do it himself, he wouldn’t need the Death Star”.

This exactly mirrors our own argument. Emperor Palpatine, coveting power, greedy and ruthless, would not need to create a Death Star, or a Sun Crusher, or a Galaxy Gun, if he alone possessed the power to destroy an entire planet.

However, I suppose that it is as valid and as possible as Sadow and Ragnos being able to perform their feats without the assistance of their toys.

Think on that.

Part B.

The subject of Palpatine’s power has left many in question. I’d like to point out a fact that has been dodged by everyone I’ve confronted with it. More sources and articles of information label Emperor Palpatine as “the most powerful Sith Lord” than any other Sith Lord – be it Ragnos, Sadow, Nihilius, Revan, Vader, Simus, or even Exar Kun.

Let’s not also forget that Palpatine’s Dark Side energies were so intense that it was literally killing and decaying his body. This is another subtle indicator of his power. In fact, in the Dark Nest Crisis – I believe – when Luke makes a massive illusion of his own ship, the usage of the Force was described as making him temporarily look shriveled and decayed, ‘like Palpatine’.

Let’s not also forget that, at the time of his death, Emperor Palpatine was betrayed by two of his Dark Side adepts. His clone bodies were unable to sustain his raw Dark Side energies (much like his own original body) and he was decaying, rapidly. He journeyed to Korriban and forced the spirits of the long-dead Sith Lords tell him how to save himself.

Several of the Dark Lords mused that Palpatine ‘gave himself’ completely to the Dark Side, years ago.

That, on his death bed, Palpatine managed to personally invade the New Republic stronghold of Onderon. He and two Dark Side adepts. The adepts begged with him not to use the Force, as each move was putting him closer to death. And, yet, despite that, he still managed to incapacitate (and mortally wound) most of his attackers.

A dying one, Brand, even said “Palpatine’s weakened now” and told Luke to attack, implying that not even Luke could face Palpatine, by himself, on his death bed, without support.

The official Star Wars databank has labeled Palpatine as “the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times.”

The New Essential Chronology, 2005, (the latest in line of the “Essential” series, and the most up-to-date source of continuity) specifically labels Palpatine as “the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”

In fact, the exact statement is:

“Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history”, when referring to his battle against Palpatine in the Senate Rotunda.

A few arguments have been made, such as:

a) The term ‘power’ in this instance is vague.

b) Yoda defeated Sidious, so the argument is wrong.

To which my response has been:

a) How is the term ‘power’ ambiguous in this instance? Palpatine’s political power is unquestioned, true. However, the context of the situation doesn’t allow for any ambiguity. The situation itself is a battle to the death between the two most powerful practitioners of the Force at that time, and not a debate in the Senate Arena. As Ushgarok has said before, the term power in this instance is neither vague nor ambiguous.

b) Yoda and Sidious stalemated. Yoda did not defeat or kill Palpatine, and neither did Palpatine defeat or kill Yoda. The battle ended when Yoda managed to maneuver Palpatine’s energy ball in between them both, which resulted in an explosion that knocked them away from each other. Yes, Yoda fled. However, he was disarmed and clearly – a battle between them in ‘just the Force’ would have ended in a draw. Furthermore, he was several meters beneath Sidious, and, most importantly, he was fighting (unarmed) in his enemy’s stronghold. He had no hope of winning at that point.

Now, in response, the Tales of the Jedi comic book, “Funeral for a Dark Lord”, made in November of 1996 said this about Marka Ragnos:

“Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was ‘the’ Dark Lord of the Sith – the most powerful of the most powerful. But now he is dead.”

Many have taken this to be ‘the’ indicator of Ragnos’s power. But here is my response to that.

a) First and foremost, this comic (as stated above) was created on November 1st, 1996. The New Essential Chronology was created on October 25th, 2005. 9 years in between these two sources of information.

b) Ragnos was the most powerful of his day. But that does not essentially make him more powerful than anyone who has claimed the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith since then. Especially when that there have been thousands of years since his death and the time of Emperor Palpatine for people to study and learn the Force – and invent new techniques.

c) Ragnos has not been specifically seen using any Force powers, though it has been stated he is a Force user. So, some of the factions who have argued how Emperor Palpatine’s most devastating attack (the Force Storm) originated with the Ancient Sith, it is therefore concrete that Ragnos possessed it – and a more powerful version. Yet, clearly, this is not the case. For several reasons:

1) Ragnos (nor any other Ancient Sith) has been shown using a Force Storm.
2) Tom Veitch, the co-creator of the Tales of the Jedi comics (along with Exar Kun creator Kevin J. Anderson) was the creator of the Dark Empire comics, as well. The series of comics that feature Palpatine’s return, and the origin of this Force Storm. Lightsnake has emailed him, and it has been confirmed that Palpatine possesses ‘all’ of the Ancient Sith’s knowledge, and his own tricks.
3) Let’s not ignore the fact that Palpatine’s own Force Storms could have been augmented and more powerful than any that may have originated with the Ancient Sith.

So, I submit to you, that this statement alone does not indicate Ragnos’s superiority over Palpatine.

Furthermore, once again, Ragnos has not been depicted in combat or using any assaults in any of the comics. So it is impossible to determine what Force powers he possesses and what it is that he is proficient in. So, how can you tell me that he is inherently more powerful than Palpatine himself?

Darth Sexy’s response to that very question has been bringing up names like Sadow, and stating that if ‘they’ are superior to Palpatine, then Ragnos must be as well. To which I asked him, is Sadow really superior?

Especially without his precious ship and items?

Darth Sexy told me that “Sadow blasting through stone is more impressive than anything Sidious has ever done.”

So, Sadow blasting through a wall is more impressive than Palpatine annihilating an entire fleet at Pinnacle Base, teleporting Luke Skywalker from Coruscant, or forcing the spirits of long-dead Sith Lords to tell him how to save himself?

Perhaps that should show you his level of bias.

Furthermore, Palpatine’s Force powers do not originate from any item or amulet. All of his attacks and Force abilities were performed without the assistance of any sort of technology, save for the destruction of planets – which we credit to the Death Star. But, as stated above, if I wanted to be petty and use Sexy’s own logic, I could say that Palpatine could have done it without the Death Star.

But we know that to be false, don’t we?

Not that it’s ever been stated. Nothing has ever stated that Palpatine didn’t have the power to blow up planets. Indeed, save for a handful, the entire galaxy had no idea that Palpatine was a Force-user.

So, I could argue that Sidious created the Death Star because, though he possessed the ability to destroy a planet, he didn’t want to reveal himself.

But, I don’t really believe that.

Part C.

Spirits. Palpatine, Marka Ragnos, and Exar Kun have all been featured in spirit-forms. Each have, still, been a threat to the galaxy, Luke Skywalker, and the Jedi as a whole. Let us break apart how each spirit was either obliterated or conquered.

a) Palpatine, after subduing Leia, and mortally wounding two Jedi Knights, was shot in the back by Han Solo as he attempted to possess the newborn Anakin Solo. Palpatine’s spirit dove for the baby, but was intercepted by Jedi Knight Brand (who was mortally wounded by a single gout of Palpatine’s Force lightning). Brand told Luke that:

“Palpatine will never return. The Force – and the Jedi before us – will see to that.”

Thus indicating that it would take the will of the Force and the dead Jedi before them all to subdue Palpatine’s spirit.

b) Exar Kun’s spirit managed to imbue Kyp Durron with immense Dark Side and Force powers (and he even put Luke in a coma). But, when several Luke’s fledgling Jedi pooled their powers with Luke’s, they managed to expel Exar Kun’s spirit to oblivion. Once again, it took a powerful Jedi and several confederates to subdue another menace.

c) Then we have Marka Ragnos. With Palpatine dead, the Imperial Remnant sought to find another powerful leader. They banded together with Tavion’s Cult of Ragnos to launch a series of operations to resurrect Ragnos. Luke Skywalker himself noted that “it could take the entire Academy to stop Ragnos.”

But here is the thing. Luke knew very little of Ragnos when he said this. He made an assumption. The only thing that he knew about Ragnos was his symbol, found on the Cultists’ clothing. So, while it may be true – there is little to prove that it was.

Concluding, all of these operations were stopped, specifically, by one lone Knight. Jaden Korr. Described as a “promising” student, and yet – for most of the game – only held Padawan status. He managed to defeat Tavion in single combat (who held possession of Ragnos’s Sith scepter).

Jaden also managed to defeat Tavion when Ragnos’s spirit possessed her (and still in possession of Ragnos’s Sith scepter).

After the battle, Ragnos cursed Jaden and fled the tomb, vowing vengeance.

Now isn’t it odd? Ragnos, the one being described as “the most powerful Sith Lord” ever, could not overcome a single Jedi Knight?

a) Exar Kun’s spirit provided Kyp Durron with MUCH more power than Tavion displayed. Kun’s spirit enabled Kyp to resurrect the Sun Crusher (a massive Imperial super weapon) from a gas giant, enabled him to defeat many of his peers, put Luke Skywalker in a coma, and even incinerate a lowly Jedi Knight.

But people argue that Kyp was dramatically more powerful than Tavion. True. However, these feats were not because of Kyp. I believe the Jedi Academy trilogy specifically stated that it was through Kun’s efforts. And, more importantly, Kyp was unable to replicate such feats after Kun’s spirit was obliterated.

We have proof, now, that Exar Kun’s spirit has displayed far more power than Ragnos’s own. And, as for Palpatine, Palpatine managed to mortally wound all the Jedi who opposed him, and Luke was unable to confront and defeat a fully charged Palpatine.

We already know that Emperor Palpatine, in terms of achievements, supercedes all other Sith Lords. We know that his Empire is dramatically superior to all other galactic governments we know of – in terms of size and in militaristic power. We also know that Luke, as of 19 ABY personally muses that Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine were the two greatest focal points of the Dark Side he’s ever encountered.

The facts above are why I put Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine above Marka Ragnos. The facts above are also why I put Palpatine above Kun, even if only slightly. I personally consider them exact equals – and have argued such time and time again.

So, after reading this, how can Marka Ragnos be the most powerful Sith Lord?

You tell me.

I'll read this novelization in the morning but I do want to point out that the ambiguous email solved absolutely nothing, and if you used your common sense you would know that. Convenient things like the questions asked, the other responses that weren't in there, the fact that the email was only shown to have the text without knowing who it was being sent to or who sent it, etc. I'm not saying lightsnake is full of shit although he is a lot, I'm saying that the email is more convenient in terms of bullshit and not solving anything, so if we are to have this debate, there should be no bullshit emails involved considering the fact nobody knows if they are real or conclusive, and no ambiguous text such as "Most powerful" or "most powerful out of the most powerful. And no Escape, I don't ignore your rebuttals, I actually answer them, I ignore lightsnake.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'll read this novelization in the morning but I do want to point out that the ambiguous email solved absolutely nothing, and if you used your common sense you would know that. Convenient things like the questions asked, the other responses that weren't in there, the fact that the email was only shown to have the text without knowing who it was being sent to or who sent it, etc. I'm not saying lightsnake is full of shit although he is a lot, I'm saying that the email is more convenient in terms of bullshit and not solving anything, so if we are to have this debate, there should be no bullshit emails involved considering the fact nobody knows if they are real or conclusive, and no ambiguous text such as "Most powerful" or "most powerful out of the most powerful. And no Escape, I don't ignore your rebuttals, I actually answer them, I ignore lightsnake.

We'll soon see.

And, Sexy, read thoroughly, carefully, and completely. I am expecting a complete rebuttal and response.

Originally posted by Escape81
Firstly, I want to say that I created this thread because this is a massive argument, which has spurred me to write a massive "thesis" on this subject. I don't want to post it in the other threads because there's a chance that someone will ignore it or not bother to read it all.

Second, I wrote it, but I gotta give props to Lightsnake for helping me out. LS, if you have anything to add, let me know.

Thirdly, I would like to say that I’m growing tired of your antics, Darth Sexy. You pick and choose what you want to read, and only reply to certain parts of my rebuttals. Furthermore, you have yet to provide an ounce of proof for your cause, instead, relying on more efficient arguments and reasons from Nai.

Essentially, you’re the one doing all the “daring” and none of the reasoning.

However, this is addressed specifically for ‘you’, and Nai may respond and reply as he wishes, but I want you to make sure that you do as well.

So let’s begin.

Part A.

At the risk of sounding redundant, I will of course be repeating several of my points, as you have yet to counter them and prefer to say that “the burden of proof is on me”. After this, it will be completely up to you. Otherwise, I think you’ll have proven that you’re incapable of debating against it – and the discussion will be over.

a) Marka Ragnos’s scepter allowed a moderate-level Force user (Tavion) to drain the Force from planets and specific areas, all for the ultimate goal of resurrecting Marka Ragnos. However, the origins of this scepter remain a complete mystery. Why would Marka Ragnos design a weapon with such power – and risk it falling into the hands of his enemies or his descendants, when the comics show him to be completely power-hungry and ruthless? Concluding, we have never seen Ragnos use this ability to drain the Force from others. In fact, we have never seen him display any Force power at all.

b) Naga Sadow was shown ultimately causing two stars to go supernova. But, he did so with the presence of his ship – which has been confirmed to have Force-related properties that augments the user’s own powers. We have also seen him blast through many hard surfaces with the help of his amulets, which Exar Kun later used to the same affect. He has been cited as a brilliant Sith alchemist and inventor.

The question that remains is: Could these two Force-users really perform these same feats without the help of their items?

Could Ragnos actually drain the Force from planets without his scepter? Could Sadow make two stars go supernova or blast through these substances without the assistance of his Force-powered ship or precious amulets?

We know for a fact that neither one of them have been displayed doing either. Sadow has not made two stars go supernova without being on his ship. We know that he hasn’t been able to create these energy blasts without his amulets. We know that Marka Ragnos has not been shown draining the Force from planets or artifacts without his scepter – and, even then – with his scepter as well.

Yet, you, Darth Sexy, seem to believe that they could.

How so? They’ve never been displayed doing it without them.

You state that they didn’t need these items required. But, yet, they have no other motivation to create such weapons and items. We’ve pointed that out. Both Ragnos and Sadow were pitiless, power hungry, ruthless, and independent. If they didn’t require the items to do these feats – why create them in the first place?

That is a question that you will ultimately have to answer.

However, let’s turn your own logic against you with an example involving Emperor Palpatine.

Are we to assume that, despite having multiple super weapons commissioned, that Emperor Palpatine could personally annihilate an entire planet? Surely such a feat would be on par with anything that the others have done.

Now, you might respond “we’ve never seen Palpatine blow up a planet” or “if he could do it himself, he wouldn’t need the Death Star”.

This exactly mirrors our own argument. Emperor Palpatine, coveting power, greedy and ruthless, would not need to create a Death Star, or a Sun Crusher, or a Galaxy Gun, if he alone possessed the power to destroy an entire planet.

However, I suppose that it is as valid and as possible as Sadow and Ragnos being able to perform their feats without the assistance of their toys.

Think on that.

Ok let me start as much as I can..
A. Where in the comics do they show him to be completely power hungry and ruthless? Where is this imaginary comic Escape? Because Ragnos was dead at the start of GAOTS, so your attempted point is Moot. Moving on. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, I have provided examples of a testament to his power, and because he wasn't shown displaying anything(because he was dead), does not at all mean he had no power. It is more logical to assume that he had tremendous power because he was described as having "Tremendous physical strength and a frightening grasp of the dark side". Not to mention his scepter instilled the force into any non force users, which was also equaled by DE Sidious.
B. The ship was a ship, but it was SITH magic that triggered the solar flares in one scan, and in the other it was Sadow clenching his fist as the sun goes bye bye. So you stating that the ship was the power and not Sadow also makes no sense, considering we see otherwise and it is called "Sith Magic" and/or 'Sith Technology. Yes he was a brilliant alchemist and whatever, I don't know if that was a conclusive statement by you or not, but it speaks volumes for his abilities because of how powerful Exar Kun became.. Next..
C. Your point again is moot in the sense that we see Sadow clenching his fist when the star blew up. You can offer whatever evidence you want but the fact that they used amulets and other talisman should have absolutely no bearing on their abilities. There could be hundreds of explanations, through which are all debatable, so that is not a good topic. Not to mention we don't see Sidious blasting through walls which doesn't really matter. Palpatine's ability to blow up planets or suck the life force out of planets was completely independant of the Death Star. The Death Star was used for his political motivations, to strike fear into the galaxy. So I'm not debating that. I won't debate his own motivations iwth his political motivations, however it is pretty obvious that Palpatine could not take on the entire galaxy, hence the development of the World Devestators and the Galaxy Gun, or whoever invented them.

Stay here Escape I'm not done.

Originally posted by Escape81
Part B.

The subject of Palpatine’s power has left many in question. I’d like to point out a fact that has been dodged by everyone I’ve confronted with it. More sources and articles of information label Emperor Palpatine as “the most powerful Sith Lord” than any other Sith Lord – be it Ragnos, Sadow, Nihilius, Revan, Vader, Simus, or even Exar Kun.

Let’s not also forget that Palpatine’s Dark Side energies were so intense that it was literally killing and decaying his body. This is another subtle indicator of his power. In fact, in the Dark Nest Crisis – I believe – when Luke makes a massive illusion of his own ship, the usage of the Force was described as making him temporarily look shriveled and decayed, ‘like Palpatine’.

Let’s not also forget that, at the time of his death, Emperor Palpatine was betrayed by two of his Dark Side adepts. His clone bodies were unable to sustain his raw Dark Side energies (much like his own original body) and he was decaying, rapidly. He journeyed to Korriban and forced the spirits of the long-dead Sith Lords tell him how to save himself.

Several of the Dark Lords mused that Palpatine ‘gave himself’ completely to the Dark Side, years ago.

That, on his death bed, Palpatine managed to personally invade the New Republic stronghold of Onderon. He and two Dark Side adepts. The adepts begged with him not to use the Force, as each move was putting him closer to death. And, yet, despite that, he still managed to incapacitate (and mortally wound) most of his attackers.

A dying one, Brand, even said “Palpatine’s weakened now” and told Luke to attack, implying that not even Luke could face Palpatine, by himself, on his death bed, without support.

The official Star Wars databank has labeled Palpatine as “the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times.”

The New Essential Chronology, 2005, (the latest in line of the “Essential” series, and the most up-to-date source of continuity) specifically labels Palpatine as “the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”

In fact, the exact statement is:

“Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history”, when referring to his battle against Palpatine in the Senate Rotunda.

A few arguments have been made, such as:

a) The term ‘power’ in this instance is vague.

b) Yoda defeated Sidious, so the argument is wrong.

To which my response has been:

a) How is the term ‘power’ ambiguous in this instance? Palpatine’s political power is unquestioned, true. However, the context of the situation doesn’t allow for any ambiguity. The situation itself is a battle to the death between the two most powerful practitioners of the Force at that time, and not a debate in the Senate Arena. As Ushgarok has said before, the term power in this instance is neither vague nor ambiguous.

b) Yoda and Sidious stalemated. Yoda did not defeat or kill Palpatine, and neither did Palpatine defeat or kill Yoda. The battle ended when Yoda managed to maneuver Palpatine’s energy ball in between them both, which resulted in an explosion that knocked them away from each other. Yes, Yoda fled. However, he was disarmed and clearly – a battle between them in ‘just the Force’ would have ended in a draw. Furthermore, he was several meters beneath Sidious, and, most importantly, he was fighting (unarmed) in his enemy’s stronghold. He had no hope of winning at that point.

Now, in response, the Tales of the Jedi comic book, “Funeral for a Dark Lord”, made in November of 1996 said this about Marka Ragnos:

“Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was ‘the’ Dark Lord of the Sith – the most powerful of the most powerful. But now he is dead.”

Many have taken this to be ‘the’ indicator of Ragnos’s power. But here is my response to that.

a) First and foremost, this comic (as stated above) was created on November 1st, 1996. The New Essential Chronology was created on October 25th, 2005. 9 years in between these two sources of information.

b) Ragnos was the most powerful of his day. But that does not essentially make him more powerful than anyone who has claimed the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith since then. Especially when that there have been thousands of years since his death and the time of Emperor Palpatine for people to study and learn the Force – and invent new techniques.

c) Ragnos has not been specifically seen using any Force powers, though it has been stated he is a Force user. So, some of the factions who have argued how Emperor Palpatine’s most devastating attack (the Force Storm) originated with the Ancient Sith, it is therefore concrete that Ragnos possessed it – and a more powerful version. Yet, clearly, this is not the case. For several reasons:

1) Ragnos (nor any other Ancient Sith) has been shown using a Force Storm.
2) Tom Veitch, the co-creator of the Tales of the Jedi comics (along with Exar Kun creator Kevin J. Anderson) was the creator of the Dark Empire comics, as well. The series of comics that feature Palpatine’s return, and the origin of this Force Storm. Lightsnake has emailed him, and it has been confirmed that Palpatine possesses ‘all’ of the Ancient Sith’s knowledge, and his own tricks.
3) Let’s not ignore the fact that Palpatine’s own Force Storms could have been augmented and more powerful than any that may have originated with the Ancient Sith.

So, I submit to you, that this statement alone does not indicate Ragnos’s superiority over Palpatine.

Furthermore, once again, Ragnos has not been depicted in combat or using any assaults in any of the comics. So it is impossible to determine what Force powers he possesses and what it is that he is proficient in. So, how can you tell me that he is inherently more powerful than Palpatine himself?

Darth Sexy’s response to that very question has been bringing up names like Sadow, and stating that if ‘they’ are superior to Palpatine, then Ragnos must be as well. To which I asked him, is Sadow really superior?

Especially without his precious ship and items?

Darth Sexy told me that “Sadow blasting through stone is more impressive than anything Sidious has ever done.”

So, Sadow blasting through a wall is more impressive than Palpatine annihilating an entire fleet at Pinnacle Base, teleporting Luke Skywalker from Coruscant, or forcing the spirits of long-dead Sith Lords to tell him how to save himself?

Perhaps that should show you his level of bias.

Furthermore, Palpatine’s Force powers do not originate from any item or amulet. All of his attacks and Force abilities were performed without the assistance of any sort of technology, save for the destruction of planets – which we credit to the Death Star. But, as stated above, if I wanted to be petty and use Sexy’s own logic, I could say that Palpatine could have done it without the Death Star.

But we know that to be false, don’t we?

Not that it’s ever been stated. Nothing has ever stated that Palpatine didn’t have the power to blow up planets. Indeed, save for a handful, the entire galaxy had no idea that Palpatine was a Force-user.

So, I could argue that Sidious created the Death Star because, though he possessed the ability to destroy a planet, he didn’t want to reveal himself.

But, I don’t really believe that.

Ok lets go with part B.. First thing..
1. You're treading on the part where you are defining power. Some would call his power through political cunning and what not, but others would call him a coward. On the other hand you will have people calling Kun powerful because he marched into the heart of the Galactic Republic and shut them all up, yet he was brash, stupid, and arrogant.. Moving on.
2. I think there are many ways to interpret Palpatine's decay. One would be a testament of his power, one would be that he's fallen down the dark path further than anybody has before him. Understand that the ancient sith didn't have to fall down the dark path, they were dark side practitioners naturally. So Palpatine might have given himself to the darkside more than anybody would have, and I believe this is logical. And yes I remember when Luke cloaked the ship or created the illusion or what not, I forget it's been a while.
3. I believe you are referring to Empire Ends when they said Palpatine gave himself up, fair enough. Next, nobody is denying his power in DE as he has reached his peak in terms of force abilities, but has plummeted in terms of sanity and rationality..
4. Yes, nobody is arguing Palpatine was the most powerful of his time.

Part B(arguing Power)

1. You have to take into account that it is very possible that the EU is not even included in this debate, as it probably shouldn't be since the NEC is not an EU source, or at least I don't think so. And if it's not, then it doesn't matter.
2. I disagree with the fact that you think newer information necessarily takes precedent over older information.
3. Calling Ragnos THE Dark Lord, should also be considered as a testament of his power. If not that, at least the fact that HE crowned Exar Kun, and HE had the final say about Exar Kun on Korriban.
4. You are using absence of proof in the case of Ragnos not using the force storm. I can counter that saying Why did they need a force storm during their golden age?
5. Some of the roleplaying books or games state Ragnos' power, I'd have to get the source for you.
6. I have looked at the email and I am going to state again that it is completely ambiguous, and shows absolutely nothing about Palpatine being superior to Ragnos. Firstly Lightsnake conveniently shows only the text, not to who or from it was, regardless of whether it is real or not. Then he proceeds to say "Well I asked him these questions and he also told me this that and that which isn't in the email". In this case the emails are inconclusive and you don't seem like an idiot so you must see that..
7. I never stated that Sadow's amulet blasts were more impressive, I stated that his ability to destroy planets was equally as impressive as the Force storm, or maybe not.
8. Again, unsupported opinions. You can say Sidious didn't need amulets, I can say he didn't know how to create them or channel his abilities through them, like the ancient sith. I could also say the ancient sith were masters of sith alchemy and they were constantly experimenting with it, hence the amulets, which is also a logical assumption for why they were used, if not for the fact that in their time it was common. This isn't a blow to Palpatine nor the Ancient Sith.

Originally posted by Escape81
Part C.

Spirits. Palpatine, Marka Ragnos, and Exar Kun have all been featured in spirit-forms. Each have, still, been a threat to the galaxy, Luke Skywalker, and the Jedi as a whole. Let us break apart how each spirit was either obliterated or conquered.

a) Palpatine, after subduing Leia, and mortally wounding two Jedi Knights, was shot in the back by Han Solo as he attempted to possess the newborn Anakin Solo. Palpatine’s spirit dove for the baby, but was intercepted by Jedi Knight Brand (who was mortally wounded by a single gout of Palpatine’s Force lightning). Brand told Luke that:

“Palpatine will never return. The Force – and the Jedi before us – will see to that.”

Thus indicating that it would take the will of the Force and the dead Jedi before them all to subdue Palpatine’s spirit.

b) Exar Kun’s spirit managed to imbue Kyp Durron with immense Dark Side and Force powers (and he even put Luke in a coma). But, when several Luke’s fledgling Jedi pooled their powers with Luke’s, they managed to expel Exar Kun’s spirit to oblivion. Once again, it took a powerful Jedi and several confederates to subdue another menace.

c) Then we have Marka Ragnos. With Palpatine dead, the Imperial Remnant sought to find another powerful leader. They banded together with Tavion’s Cult of Ragnos to launch a series of operations to resurrect Ragnos. Luke Skywalker himself noted that “it could take the entire Academy to stop Ragnos.”

But here is the thing. Luke knew very little of Ragnos when he said this. He made an assumption. The only thing that he knew about Ragnos was his symbol, found on the Cultists’ clothing. So, while it may be true – there is little to prove that it was.

Concluding, all of these operations were stopped, specifically, by one lone Knight. Jaden Korr. Described as a “promising” student, and yet – for most of the game – only held Padawan status. He managed to defeat Tavion in single combat (who held possession of Ragnos’s Sith scepter).

Jaden also managed to defeat Tavion when Ragnos’s spirit possessed her (and still in possession of Ragnos’s Sith scepter).

After the battle, Ragnos cursed Jaden and fled the tomb, vowing vengeance.

Now isn’t it odd? Ragnos, the one being described as “the most powerful Sith Lord” ever, could not overcome a single Jedi Knight?

a) Exar Kun’s spirit provided Kyp Durron with MUCH more power than Tavion displayed. Kun’s spirit enabled Kyp to resurrect the Sun Crusher (a massive Imperial super weapon) from a gas giant, enabled him to defeat many of his peers, put Luke Skywalker in a coma, and even incinerate a lowly Jedi Knight.

But people argue that Kyp was dramatically more powerful than Tavion. True. However, these feats were not because of Kyp. I believe the Jedi Academy trilogy specifically stated that it was through Kun’s efforts. And, more importantly, Kyp was unable to replicate such feats after Kun’s spirit was obliterated.

We have proof, now, that Exar Kun’s spirit has displayed far more power than Ragnos’s own. And, as for Palpatine, Palpatine managed to mortally wound all the Jedi who opposed him, and Luke was unable to confront and defeat a fully charged Palpatine.

We already know that Emperor Palpatine, in terms of achievements, supercedes all other Sith Lords. We know that his Empire is dramatically superior to all other galactic governments we know of – in terms of size and in militaristic power. We also know that Luke, as of 19 ABY personally muses that Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine were the two greatest focal points of the Dark Side he’s ever encountered.

The facts above are why I put Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine above Marka Ragnos. The facts above are also why I put Palpatine above Kun, even if only slightly. I personally consider them exact equals – and have argued such time and time again.

So, after reading this, how can Marka Ragnos be the most powerful Sith Lord?

You tell me.

Part C

A. It is NOT an indicator that it would take all of the Jedi to stop him. That's an assumption and I can simply say that the statement is as conclusive as you see it. Meaning he's just saying "we will make sure Palpatine never comes back". That in no way means that every Jedi and Spirit will be watching him.

B. I am not arguing Kun's abilities, they are known to everybody..

C. Whether or not Luke was assuming, he made a definitive and conclusive statement, which should be taken for fact. Also take into consideration that you are comparing the 2nd greatest Jedi in the galaxy(Kyp), to an average weakling(Tavion). In no way does this diminish Ragnos. I could also argue that Ragnos' corruption killed Tavion rather easily, while Kun's corruption of Kyp did nothing..

D. I believe you are mistaken. Kyp was only 2nd to Luke, and he did indeed mimic the feats of Luke, like creating black holes or what not. That is a true testament of his power and should not even be compared to Tavion. And this again does not diminish Ragnos..

E. Luke was not as powerful as DE Sidious, this much is known, yet he did defeat him, which proves the most powerful does not always win, although that has nothing to do with this just thought I'd state it.

F. Nobody is arguing for what Palpatine did. In terms of maneuvering I would put Palpatine as the greatest sith lord, and Revan as the second for the fact that he almost destroyed the Republic singlehandidly. You have to take that into account when YOU are making this argument. Kun would be third..

Lastly, in terms of RAW abilities, and FORCE powers, which are all that matter in a versus thread, it is MORE than obvious that Ragnos is superior to any of them in sheer power, physical strength, and raw abilities. In terms of force power, you can argue anything you want, including text like "Ragnos had a frightening grasp of the dark side", or "Sidious knew every technique blah blah", but you will not come up with anything conclusive. And that is the End, I look forward to your rebuttal.

Originally posted by Escape81
The New Essential Chronology, 2005, (the latest in line of the “Essential” series, and the most up-to-date source of continuity) specifically labels Palpatine as “the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”

In fact, the exact statement is:

“Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history”, when referring to his battle against Palpatine in the Senate Rotunda.

A few arguments have been made, such as:

a) The term ‘power’ in this instance is vague.

b) Yoda defeated Sidious, so the argument is wrong.

Don't forget that the NEC is written from an in-universe perception. This severely undermines the reliability of the statement.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'll read this novelization in the morning

lmao 😆
That is completely a TDTD comment.

Hmm... Darth Sexy..

Palpatine the greatest sith lord? I think it a little funny that Yoda, far weaker than kun,etc., had more control of Sidious's lightning than Sidious did.

Sidious becomes a lot more powerful in DE. Check this out, it's from the DE handbook:

Here also:

Yeah, right...Yoda weaker than Kun? Like the strongest Jedi master of the Golden Age would be weaker than Exar..

I think we can all ignore Tdtd, AKA Darth Sexy...they're obviously the same eprson...same insults, same writing style, same exact way of speaking, same idiocy.

He ignores the emails I posted and claims they didn't 'prove anything', when they most certainly clarified numerous points. Veitch confirmed Sidious's knowledge and in direct response to my asking who the strongest Sith was, Anderson said maybe if LFL did a comic pitting Exar vs. Palpatine, we'd find out.
We also know, that from the DE handbook, as Nebaris was kinda to scan, Palpatine's power is described as 'limitless'...we know more on the matter as his force drain was able to affect Byss on a global scale, not to mention his being able to empower Dark Side adepts with the force with a flick of his finger.

I'm also putting a stop to this 'Sadow clenched his fist and a star exploded' nonsense...this is from DLOTS, a reenactment in Vodo's holocron...when we are actually SHOWN the event, it is different. Sadow requires his ship and its 'electrical weapon'm, he doesn't 'clench his fist' and the star explodes...and in the young Jedi Knights series, BRAKISS manipulates stars and grows concerned and worried when asked if he could make the sun explode and says he hopes he never has to try.

And you know something, Sexy? You're trying to claim the NEC isn't a valid soruce? ACCORDING TO ITS AUTHOR, it's as valid as anything else, including books or comics...it's all C-canon. And dan was kind enough to post on this forum to clarify it.

Palpatine's rationality only plummeted due to the decaying state of his final clone, which included its mind. Prior to that in DE, he was himself. There is no In Universe source putting Ragnos above Palpatine, got that? Game stats are officially declared byt the Holocron database to be N-canon...same as gameplay.

Ooh, and no, sorry...it was said every Jedi held Palpatine's spirit into the dark side...every Jedi that ever lived. And Luke also said it would take the entire strength to stop Brakiss...and Hethrir...Kueller, too.

And no, Luke's as strong as DE Sidious by the end...what point of 'twin divinities' do you not understand? They were going at it evenly. It even said Luke won because he had Leia and more importantly her child to fight for.

Sorry, kiddo, but Palpatine's final force storm was said to have been the strongest and most terrifying usage of the darkside in galactic history. No debate

'I think we can all ignore Tdtd, AKA Darth Sexy...they're obviously the same eprson...same insults, same writing style, same exact way of speaking, same idiocy.'

And to add on to that, same arguments and same incredible amount of time spent on this forum.

Same exact arguments actually.

The thing is, it's definitely clear that he was once at this site under another username. He keeps in hinting it, such as 'Lightsnake you're just getting pwned like you did 4 months ago by IKC'. It's definitely clear that he is very much in favour of Ragnos. It's also definitely clear that he has some sort of problem with you. TDTD is the only person who it could possibly be. God I truly am smart for being the first person figure it all out and tell everyone, huh.

Yeah, it's amusing as hell how he claims he 'just got here' and knows what happened four months ago...when he said he couldn't even be bothered to reread a single thread for stuff I posted there.