Here I Go Again. Only Two Groups Folks Which One Are You In?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[BIt's sad, but MANY of you are in this last group.[/B]

I would be careful JIA. I think that these verses describe what is going on here.

John 8:7, 11, 15-16
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Luke 6:37
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

James 3
1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3 Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Originally posted by Soleran
I have read a few posts of his, but hey my point is if he makes a thread and you dislike it so much why even make your presence noticed?

This is the religion forum, since when is rational a prerequisite for anything in here🙂

Like I said before, ask a different question. If you don't get the answer you want either stop posting or ask a different question, no one forces anyone to post in his threads!

The same "no one forces anyone to post in his threads!" could be applied to any thread. Threads get closed anyway. I frequent this forum alot and I post here more than anyone else. This is a forum for religous discussion, not for preaching and condemnation. This thread doesnt start discussion. JIA already says these things in other threads. Its redundant, superfelous, and basically a trash thread imo. Its a waste of time in the forum.

13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD (Jesus asking Him to save you from your sins) shall be saved.”

🙄
Jesus never said that.....

Originally posted by Soleran
I have read a few posts of his, but hey my point is if he makes a thread and you dislike it so much why even make your presence noticed?

This is the religion forum, since when is rational a prerequisite for anything in here🙂

Like I said before, ask a different question. If you don't get the answer you want either stop posting or ask a different question, no one forces anyone to post in his threads!

I think it is more about his attitude - this is a religious debate forum, but JIA does not debate, nor answer questions asked of him - his style is thus:

Start a thread consisting of bible quotes after which he basically states "If you not Christian you are going to hell" - people, in the spirit of debate engage him and ask questions, he posts more bible quotes and reiterates "you don't believe, you are going to hell." People point out that the Bible is not an answer, he says it is the word of God, posts some more quotes and reiterates "you don't believe, you are going to Hell" and so on and so on.

But anyway, but to the thread - JesusisAlive, you didn't answer my point - so do the bad people that believe still belong on the "God group"? Or do they automatically go in the devil group despite following the bible? Or do you admit that there are grey areas?

And are you happy to follow a God that would send good people to hell just because they didn't believe?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura

But anyway, but to the thread - JesusisAlive, you didn't answer my point - so do the bad people that believe still belong on the "God group"? Or do they automatically go in the devil group despite following the bible? Or do you admit that there are grey areas?

And are you happy to follow a God that would send good people to hell just because they didn't believe? [/B]

I am talking about a "class or category" when I state the two groups. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life are saved folk. Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are folk who are not saved. It is possible for a saved person to walk in the flesh and live in an ungodly, unholy manner. However, that person who chooses to do thus is still saved an in the group of people who are considered "righteous." You see righteousness is a state that a person is reckoned in once that person's sins are washed in the blood of Jesus Christ. God no longer "considers" or views that person as unrighteous, he/she is a new creation. However, it is possible for a person to renounce Jesus Christ and go back into the world. That person will thus forfeit his/her "righteous" status and his/her name will be blotted out of the Book.

Did this answer your question Imperial_Samura?

It is possible for a saved person to walk in the flesh and live in an ungodly, unholy manner. However, that person who chooses to do thus is still saved

Bad Christian + no fruits = Heaven?
Not a Christian + fruits = Hell? ❌

Originally posted by debbiejo
So the fruits of the spirit mean nothing then....Jesus said "You will know them by their fruits"....and if their fruits be good, and yet not a believer they go where?

Bad Christian + no fruits = Heaven?
Not a Christian + fruits = Hell? ❌

I know how you feel. I rarely use smileys but I thought this situation called for one... 🤨

It is possible for a saved person to walk in the flesh and live in an ungodly, unholy manner. However, that person who chooses to do thus is still saved an in the group of people who are considered "righteous."....God no longer "considers" or views that person as unrighteous, he/she is a new creation.

See, the idea of a God that is summery and divisive like that turns my stomach. A God who would apparently ignore the unrighteous actions of person because they believe, yet would still damn a good person who didn't. Is not believing such a great crime?

Personally if I was a God I would reward people for their deeds and intents - not for the label they wore. I'd say "if you're good, you're in belief or not. If you're bad you're out, belief or not."

I wonder which sounds fairer?

Did this answer your question Imperial_Samura?

Sadly yes.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I know how you feel. I rarely use smileys but I thought this situation called for one... 🤨

See, the idea of a God that is summery and divisive like that turns my stomach. A God who would apparently ignore the unrighteous actions of person because they believe, yet would still damn a good person who didn't. Is not believing such a great crime?

Personally if I was a God I would reward people for their deeds and intents - not for the label they wore. I'd say "if you're good, you're in belief or not. If you're bad you're out, belief or not."

I wonder which sounds fairer?

Sadly yes.

Spiritually dead.

How can you people even BEGIN to understand the Word/will of God when you all try to undertand everything that I write from a "natural" standpoint instead of a "spiritual' one. God's Word IS SPIRITUAL in terms of its import. But if you are not born again, in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit then YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE SPIRITUAL IMPORT of the Bible. That is why you all are so clueless and aggravated. You all keep blaming me for you ignorance and inability to grasp God's Word but the fault lies with you. You are all spiritually dead because of your sins. You will never be able to understand the Bible unless you get BORN AGAIN. You need to get ALIVE TO GOD in order to understand God's Word. I went through the same thing. I sounded exactly like all of you: doubtful, inquisitive, frustrated, clueless, contradictory, just plain ignorant of the things of God. It was not until I got SAVED (i.e., born again, redeemed from the penalty of my sins and had my sins remitted [sent away, and released] by the blood of Jesus) that I was SUDDENLY ALIVE to God. I suddenly was able to compare spiritual things with SPIRITUAL THINGS. You all are trying to compary "natural" things with SPIRITUAL THINGS.
They do not coincide or mix, kind of like oil and water (now I am using a natural, human, earthly example to illustrate a spiritual truth or point).

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Originally posted by Roland
I'm with ya Atlantis. devil2

I just want to say that if JesusIsAlive's opinion is that people belong in two groups then he can have that opinion. But life isn't that simple you can't just lump actions or people into two catagories and say thats that. I will admit that I am an athiest but does that make me a bad person? No. Oh and a lot of the things on the "EVIL" list (except the whole "devils son and son of wicked ones, I just don't believe that people are "born" evil) are human emotions or actions that many people experience and do in their lives.

He can have his opinion, I respect that but sorry I just think that life is more complicated then the whole "You're either good or bad." theory that JesusIsAlive is promoting.

I never said that anyone was good or bad. I said that there are only two groups of people. Stop misquoting me.

Originally posted by Roland
Goats are pure evil don't you know that Gregory? 😆

Ignorance.

The term "goat" is used figuratively to refer to those who are rejected by Jesus by their own refusal to accept Christ.

Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats . 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left . 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:...41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:... 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Spiritually dead.

How can you people even BEGIN to understand the Word/will of God when you all try to undertand everything that I write from a "natural" standpoint instead of a "spiritual' one. God's Word IS SPIRITUAL in terms of its import. But if you are not born again, in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit then YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE SPIRITUAL IMPORT of the Bible.

Ultimately (as it seems I am spiritually dead) I can not believe that the Bible suddenly changes if you clasp your hands and say "Jesus, forgive me my sins and come dwell in my heart" - and I should know, myself and all the other kids at my school had to say it every week for the first two years of our schooling during scripture classes. And every time I opened a Bible the words were the same.

That is why you all are so clueless and aggravated. You all keep blaming me for you ignorance and inability to grasp God's Word but the fault lies with you.

I am not trying to blame you for anything - what I am doing is called debating. One person (in this case you) puts forward and argument. I asks questions drawn from that argument and maybe deliver a counter argument. You would answer my questions and respond to my counter argument. It is an educational process.

You are all spiritually dead because of your sins. You will never be able to understand the Bible unless you get BORN AGAIN. You need to get ALIVE TO GOD in order to understand God's Word. I went through the same thing. I sounded exactly like all of you: doubtful, inquisitive, frustrated, clueless, contradictory, just plain ignorant of the things of God. It was not until I got SAVED (i.e., born again, redeemed from the penalty of my sins and had my sins remitted [sent away, and released] by the blood of Jesus) that I was SUDDENLY ALIVE to God. I suddenly was able to compare spiritual things with SPIRITUAL THINGS. You all are trying to compary "natural" things with SPIRITUAL THINGS.
They do not coincide or mix, kind of like oil and water (now I am using a natural, human, earthly example to illustrate a spiritual truth or point).

So concepts of justice change when a nonbeliever becomes believer? Because here, at least, is the bone I am picking. The concept of an unrighteous believer being saved while a righteous nonbeliever is damned seems unjust and alien to the concept of an all loving, all fair God. And since I care about justice I find it hard to believe a spiritual awakening would change my mind on that point - the only way I could be comfortable with it would be if I ignored it and just accepted it. But that sounds like closing ones mind as opposed to opening it.

But now I ask a question, and I want you to answer honestly - which is fairer, from a believers point of view: A God that rewards an unrighteous believer and punishes a righteous nonbeliever OR a God that rewarded a good person and punished a bad one?

Damnit I knew being a goat was gonna send me straight to hell... but at least I've got sure-footing.. ah well...

Being born once was enough for me... placenta.. not fun...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Damnit I knew being a goat was gonna send me straight to hell... but at least I've got sure-footing.. ah well...

Being born once was enough for me... placenta.. not fun...

I am happy I don't remember placenta. Though they are full of nutrienty goodness.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ultimately (as it seems I am spiritually dead) I can not believe that the Bible suddenly changes if you clasp your hands and say "Jesus, forgive me my sins and come dwell in my heart" - and I should know, myself and all the other kids at my school had to say it every week for the first two years of our schooling during scripture classes. And every time I opened a Bible the words were the same.

I am not trying to blame you for anything - what I am doing is called debating. One person (in this case you) puts forward and argument. I asks questions drawn from that argument and maybe deliver a counter argument. You would answer my questions and respond to my counter argument. It is an educational process.

So concepts of justice change when a nonbeliever becomes believer? Because here, at least, is the bone I am picking. The concept of an unrighteous believer being saved while a righteous nonbeliever is damned seems unjust and alien to the concept of an all loving, all fair God. And since I care about justice I find it hard to believe a spiritual awakening would change my mind on that point - the only way I could be comfortable with it would be if I ignored it and just accepted it. But that sounds like closing ones mind as opposed to opening it.

But now I ask a question, and I want you to answer honestly - which is fairer, from a believers point of view: A God that rewards an unrighteous believer and punishes a righteous nonbeliever OR a God that rewarded a good person and punished a bad one?

I did the same thing as a child, but I was not SINCERE. I was just doing what I was told to do. When you truly reach a place in your life when you recognize that you are a sinner in need of the Savior, then at that point YOU WILL BECOME BORN AGAIN. Until that time you will continue to say or do things by rote memory from your head, but not sincerely, genuinely, and earnestly from your heart.

Again, I AM NOT DEBATING or arguing with anyone. That is not my purpose or calling. God did not call me to debate with you or anyone else. You either believe or you don't believe.

Press on.

Now, you are still using the word "unrighteous" as an adjective to describe actions. That IS NOT what I am doing when I say "righteous." Again, for the umpteenth time, when I say "righteous" I mean a "state" that a person is in once they are saved. It is an everlasting designation. For example, let's say that you go to the clinic to get H.I.V. tested (this is purely hypothetical so don't nit-pick my for instance) and after your blood is drawn the physician or lab tech certifies you "H.I.V. negative. Unless YOU do something to change this, you are forever classed among those who are not H.I.V. positive. The fact that you are not H.I.V. positive is not an act it is a "state" that you were classed in.

Simarly, when a person accepts Jesus Christ's payment for sins, he/she becomes "righteous' in God's eyes forever. So even if that person does "sin" (now I am talking about an action) he/she is still classed as "righteous." That person just needs to ask for forgiveness for their sin (now I know that that statement is going to open a can of worms for some of you). But that person has not forfeited or lost their "righteousness" status in God's eyes, they have simply broken fellowship with God their Heavenly Father. Similar to the way a son or daughter breaks fellowship with his/her parents when they disobey their parents. The son and daughter are still the parents children but the fellowship (that loving, social, filial connection) is disrupted until the children make up with their parents in some fashion.

So their is no such thing as an "unrighteous believer" this is an oxymoron. But there are UNHOLY believers. And conversely, there is no such animal as a "righteous nonbeliever."

And another thing God doesn't determine our salvation, nor does He keep track of how good or bad we are in terms of our salvation from sin. Our salvation is NOT based on our good or bad works at all. Our merit, no matter how laudable will NOT get us into Heaven. We can never be good enough. That is why Jesus had to die. I say had to die because if humanity was ever going to have a chance again at being "righteous" in God's eyes it would require God to officially "stamp" us if you would or "class" us as righteous. That is why God set up the whole salvation process the way that He did. God requires us to CONFESS Jesus Christ as Lord.... Why? because when you ask Jesus to save you from your sins, God will personally wash away every sin that you ever thought, spoke, and committed, past, present, and future. Then God will credit to your account as it were righteousness. You will get credit for being righteous through Christ Jesus. God credits us with the righteousness. We did not earn, merit, or deserve to be credited with righteousness though. It is something that Jesus has or is rather and when we put our faith in Jesus, we get the same righteousness designation. God will forever see you as "righteous" in His eyes (but because of what Jesus did for us and His righteousness "designation" being reckoned to our account as it were.

I could go on for days, weeks, months, and even years about the Word of God but time would fail me. So I need to conclude for now.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So their is no such thing as an "unrighteous believer" this is an oxymoron.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No it's not. 🙂

No it's not, then a happy face but no explanation as to why you deny what I have written.

OOKAYYY!

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
KINGDOM OF GOD (God's group)

SONS OF GOD
SONS OF THE KINGDOM
LOVE
BLESS
DO GOOD
PRAY FOR
SAVED
RIGHTEOUS
HOLY
BELIEVER
SAINT
HEAVEN
JOY
PEACE
ETERNAL LIFE
FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT
SPIRIT
SPIRITUALLY MINDED
LONGSUFFERING
KINDNESS
GOODNESS
FAITHFULNESS
GENTLENESS
SELF-CONTROL
BOLDNESS
FAITH
MARRIAGE
SEX IN MARRIAGE
SEXUAL PURITY
BORN AGAIN
SHEEP
WHEAT
GOOD
JUST
GOOD GROUND
TEMPLE OF GOD
HOLY ANGELS
LIGHT
SALT
SPECIAL PEOPLE
CHOSEN GENERATION
ROYAL PRIESTHOOD
HOLY NATION
HOPE
WALK IN THE SPIRIT
WORSHIP GOD
DON'T STEAL
DON'T COVET
DON'T GET DRUNK
SEASONED SPEECH
GIVE WISELY
WASHED
SANCTIFIED
JUSTIFIED
IN CHRIST
IN THE LORD
SLEEP IN THE LORD
EVERLASTING LIFE
BLESSED OF GOD

kingdom of darkness (the devil's group):

sons of the devil
sons of the wicked one
hateful
you curse
practicing evil
get revenge, repay evil for evil, vindictive
not saved
unrighteous
unholy
unbelievers
sinners
on your way to Hell
sadness, depression, misery, sorrow
contentious, dissension,
eternal death
works of the flesh
sinful, human flesh
carnally minded
quick to get angry or shed blood
outbursts of wrath
wickedness
adulterous, unfaithfulness,
strife, confusion, disorder
drunkenness,
fearful
unbelieving
divorce for wrong reasons
having sex without marriage
uncleanness, lewdness, fornication
spiritually dead
goats
tares
bad
wicked
wayside, stony places, thorns
I can do whatever I want with my body
demons or wicked, evil, and unclean, spirits
darkness
sons of disobedience
having no hope
walking in sinful, human flesh
idolaters (those who worship idols worhip satan or demons)
thieves
covetous
drunkards
revilers
extortioners
sinners
in Adam (or in your sins)
destined for everlasting death and punishment
cursed

[B]Which group are you in?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I never said that anyone was good or bad. I said that there are only two groups of people. Stop misquoting me.

Please reread your first post. You say there are only two groups of people. Now look at the words you use to describe the first group, these words describe good. Now look at the second group, these words describe bad/evil/hate. Simple as that. While you may not have DIRECTLY said the groups are good and bad/evil, that is what I got out of it. I wasn't misquoting you either that was my opinion, you obviously don't believe in any other opinion but your own so this post is probably a waste of my time.

As for the goat message, there is something called humor out in the world you might want to find it.

Originally posted by Roland
Please reread your first post. You say there are only two groups of people. Now look at the words you use to describe the first group, these words describe good. Now look at the second group, these words describe bad/evil/hate. Simple as that. [b]While you may not have DIRECTLY said the groups are good and bad/evil, that is what I got out of it. I wasn't misquoting you either that was my opinion, you obviously don't believe in any other opinion but your own so this post is probably a waste of my time.

As for the goat message, there is something called humor out in the world you might want to find it. [/B]

Well, what you should have gotten out of it is that you are either SAVED or you are NOT SAVED.

I guess I'm in the NOT SAVED group then, right?

Oh another thing are your lists, where do you list the intolerent and prejudiced? You seem to fall under these two words because you are intolerent of other religions and prejudice towards many people that don't follow your way.

I was under the impression that God is supposed to be tolerent and non-prejudice?

Originally posted by Roland
I was under the impression that God is supposed to be tolerent and non-prejudice?