Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Darth Revan

'Gameplay factor, doesn't matter. How many did Revan defeat? Did he just stand back and watch? You can't say for sure, so don't say it at all.'

I may not be able to say for sure, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't say it at all. It's obvious that Revan had to at least kill dozens of dark jedi, and even more sith soldiers and advanced battle droids, and if I were to make a guess, I'd say he himself likely killed a magority of the dark jedi, advanced battle droids and sith soldiers. He then was able to fend off the attacks of Bastilla powered up by the SF to an extent and turn her to the light, and defeat a SF powered Darth Malak. That is much better than anything Ulic did imo. It shows that Revan must have been an extremely capable warrior.

'I'll correct that statement: Yet was able to defeat Darth Malak in circumstances unknown, who - at the time - was powered by the unsubstantiated, unquantified, unspecified Star Forge, and could drain life from Jedi.'

Malak actually states that perhaps if Revan had learnt how to fully control the SF, he might have become invincible. Bastilla talks about becoming much more powerful, throught the dark side and SF, and sparks from the SF fly into her and power her up. The power of the SF is in no way unsubstantiated.

No, Motoko is correct. It doesn't state specifics on how the Star Forge supposedly empowers another Force user. Furthermore, they may have been referring to the Forge's ability to create massive fleets.

I recall many Imperial commanders stating that "with the power of the Death Star", the Empire would be invincible. As well as the Emperor himself, though - in both cases - neither were born out to be the truth.

It makes more sense that they were all referring to the Forge's true ability, the one where it could create massive starfleets.

Originally posted by Escape81
No, Motoko is correct. It doesn't state specifics on how the Star Forge supposedly empowers another Force user. Furthermore, they may have been referring to the Forge's ability to [B]create massive fleets.

I recall many Imperial commanders stating that "with the power of the Death Star", the Empire would be invincible. As well as the Emperor himself, though - in both cases - neither were born out to be the truth.

It makes more sense that they were all referring to the Forge's true ability, the one where it could create massive starfleets. [/B]

No, she was wrong because she said that it was unsubstantiated. As an 'English whizkid', I assume you know what that means.

And seriously dude, you couldn't be more wrong. Revan knew about the SF's ability to create ships back when he was the DL. That destroys your whole argument, as Malak states that perhaps if Revan were to have learnt how to fully control the SF's ability, he might have become invincible. Therefor he must be talking about something that Revan didn't know about when he was the DL, which would rule out the SF's ability to make ships.

It's also clear that Malak is talking about how the SF powers up the individual controlling it, as he makes that the TRUE power of the SF was being able to drain the life out of jedi to make you stronger...

Originally posted by Escape81
No, Motoko is correct. It doesn't state specifics on how the Star Forge supposedly empowers another Force user. Furthermore, they may have been referring to the Forge's ability to [B]create massive fleets.

I recall many Imperial commanders stating that "with the power of the Death Star", the Empire would be invincible. As well as the Emperor himself, though - in both cases - neither were born out to be the truth.

It makes more sense that they were all referring to the Forge's true ability, the one where it could create massive starfleets. [/B]

Escape, how can you compare the death star to something that is a tool of the dark side that DOES increase your power. Unless of course Malak himself is a fallible 3rd party character too. I would need to get you specific quotes but they do range from him saying that the star forge has made him exceedingly powerful, and "I have become more powerful than you have" or "while you were dark lord".

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
No, she was wrong because she said that it was unsubstantiated.

No, she was right. How powerful does the Star Forge make you? By what margin does it increase your power?

You can't make any kind of accurate statement relating to how much power the Star Forge grants to it's users without relying on speculation or unsubstantiated assumptions.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, how can you compare the death star to something that is a tool of the dark side that DOES increase your power. Unless of course Malak himself is a fallible 3rd party character too. I would need to get you specific quotes but they do range from him saying that the star forge has made him exceedingly powerful, and "I have become more powerful than you have" or "while you were dark lord".

I must replay my KotoR. I wasn't aware that the Star Forge was designed to be a tool of the dark side. I was under the assumption that it was a technological juggernaut that could be controlled by Force users.

Furthermore, if I may borrow an argument... "power" is ambiguous. The same context was used with the Death Star that was used with the Star Forge.

Lastly, you'd think that this super-Malak wouldn't require regeneration from draining the bodies from others.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
No, she was [b]right. How powerful does the Star Forge make you? By what margin does it increase your power?

You can't make any kind of accurate statement relating to how much power the Star Forge grants to it's users without relying on speculation or unsubstantiated assumptions. [/B]

Motoko + Swirly Girl + Cap'n Rex + Darth Sexy (when he's good) + Nai (he doesn't know it yet...) are my Dark Side adepts. Why? They love me.

Originally posted by Escape81
I must replay my KotoR. I wasn't aware that the Star Forge was designed to be a tool of the dark side. I was under the assumption that it was a technological juggernaut that could be controlled by Force users.

Furthermore, if I may borrow an argument... "power" is ambiguous. The same context was used with the Death Star that was used with the Star Forge.

Lastly, you'd think that this super-Malak wouldn't require regeneration from draining the bodies from others.

Escape, I forget what level it is, I think it's either on Kashyyk or on the planet on the star forge system where one of the Rakatans says "It is a tool of the dark side". And what do you mean "You'd think this super Malak wouldn't require draining the bodies"? That just shows how powerful Revan was, nothing more nothing less.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
No, she was [b]right. How powerful does the Star Forge make you? By what margin does it increase your power?

You can't make any kind of accurate statement relating to how much power the Star Forge grants to it's users without relying on speculation or unsubstantiated assumptions. [/B]

No, she was wrong because she desciribed it as being 'powered by the unsubstantiated Star Forge', which is clearly wrong because the idea that the SF is able to power up the individial using it is supported. I wasn't disputing the fact that it was unquantified or whatever.

And Sexy is right in this instance, I mean the SF is even described as living at one point; there's a lot more to it than the Death Star.

Stop calling me td, jesus christ.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Stop calling me td, jesus christ.

I didn't call you td. God, you're so paranoid.

Lol, "edited by Nebaris"..

I would say Darth Revan takes this battle.

He defeated a "Star Forge" empowered Malak in an "epic duel". To give you an idea, the Star Forge was a machine that drained the force out of an entire race that is VERY strong in the dark side This race was so powerful that their entire civilization was built upon the force. If a star station possesses that much force power, then anyone powerful enough to wield such energy would consequently become much stronger than before, by virtue of the amount of force that can be used. What more, Revan defeated such a powerful opponent twice, clearly indicating that it was not by some fluke. The Star Forge was described as destroying several other trained Sith Masters that tried to control its power.

He also possesses Echani precognition, a technique that could allow him to see the attacks of his enemies before hand, which gives him an advantage in saber combat.

His powers in the force were described by Rakatan's as "calling lightning from the sky." This is far different from the typical lightning which erupts from the wielders fingertips. His "magics" slaughtered their raiding parties.

I agree. imo, the Rakatans were on the level of the Ancient sith. I mean I know that the ancient sith did defeat the Rakatans, but it was luck imo.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
I agree. imo, the Rakatans were on the level of the Ancient sith. I mean I know that the ancient sith did defeat the Rakatans, but it was luck imo.

Perhaps the ancient Rakatans, but sure as hell not the primitive ones you meet on KOTOR.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Perhaps the ancient Rakatans, but sure as hell not the primitive ones you meet on KOTOR.

Still, Revan's abilities in the force are somewhat inconclusive, and the fact that Uliq stalemated Kun and Sylvar without the force gives him the saber advantage.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Still, Revan's abilities in the force are somewhat inconclusive, and the fact that Uliq stalemated Kun and Sylvar without the force gives him the saber advantage.

Were you sleep deprived when you read Redemption? 😛

I recall Sylvar chasing Ulic to a cliff... I don't think he was stalemating her.

I agree that stalemating Exar is a worthy point. But I am loathe to believe that Exar was at peak efficiency (or even trying); he did not use his double bladed style. Malak was empowered by a star station of powerful energies, and he was defeated twice by Revan.

No one gets tooled in this battle, but I still believe Revan walks away alive and well.