Jack and Liz vs. Will and Liz

Originally posted by vegaofthelyre
I was just watching the Audio Commentary for DVD with the writers Ted Elliot and Terry Rossio (sp?) for Pirates 1 and discovered some VERY interesting things!

The scene before Jack escapes, he says, "Elizabeth, it would have never worked between us darling, I'm sorry"

At this point in the DVD, Ted (or Terry) says, "I love [Keira's] reaction to [what Jack Sparrow said] because there's definitely an element of 'Shut up, Jack" here...which is interesting because it brings up the question of how far was she willing to go on that island.. and how far DID she go on the island?

HMMMM... so they, too, have pondered the island question!

It was very heartening to know that our writers are somewhat on the same page as us... and that they were at least aware of this Jack/Liz dynamic from the first movie. Oh and I apologize if someone else has noticed this before and has already posted this bit up here. Just wanted to share 😂

Know what else I find interesting. I personally think That Will is basically the old Norrington from CotBP but in DMC..

There seems to be alot of echoes going on with the first movie and the second. The writers said that at the very end, Norrington makes a change..He loves Liz so much that he puts her happiness ahead of His and lets her go with Will.

Will is the new underdog to JACK in the DMC...just like Norrington was with will in the last.

Its a pattern. Liz is told/thinks she should be with Norrington in the first movie but its NOT what her heart really wants..at this moment in the story Will can supply her with the mystery and excitement she needs. She's going to be engaged to Norrington but it gets halted because of Will.

In the next movie, we see that Will's just not enough for Liz. The marriage gets halted because of JACK. She thinks That Will is what she should have but its clearly not enough. Jack is getting under her skin.

In the End Will might just let Liz be happy and go with Jack because he loves her so much.

I'm not kidding there are so many things in movie one that echo what happens later on..primarily the first scene where Jack saves her life..almost everything he mentions/does is echoed later on in movie 2/3

Actually, I have only seen POTC 2 once. So I cannot clearly recall what words were used, but was there a scene/dialogue that said there had to be a captain of the Flying Dutchman.

If so then it is clear that either Will or Jack will become the captian after the death of Davy Jones.

Now we come to the debate of which one.

Will - Possibly due to the darker side of him coming out and Liz kissing Jack, he may depose of Davy Jones only to end up becoming him

Jack - Because Liz talks to him about doing the right thing, would not Jack then do the right thing and leave Liz and Will together.

Even though I must admit I would like to see Liz and Jack together, I don't see it happening. Disney is in to making "Feel Good" movies. Unfortunately I don't see a real "Feel Good" ending to Liz and Jack. (Basically folks, it says that to leave the one you love for the one you lust after is ok. Don't get me wrong, that happens a lot in life, but Disney does try to paint a rainbow)

Somehow, I don't see Barbossa ending up the captain of the Dutchman. Then it's just replacing an evil with another evil.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Actually, I have only seen POTC 2 once. So I cannot clearly recall what words were used, but was there a scene/dialogue that said there had to be a captain of the Flying Dutchman.

If so then it is clear that either Will or Jack will become the captian after the death of Davy Jones.

Now we come to the debate of which one.

Will - Possibly due to the darker side of him coming out and Liz kissing Jack, he may depose of Davy Jones only to end up becoming him

Jack - Because Liz talks to him about doing the right thing, would not Jack then do the right thing and leave Liz and Will together.

Even though I must admit I would like to see Liz and Jack together, I don't see it happening. Disney is in to making "Feel Good" movies. Unfortunately I don't see a real "Feel Good" ending to Liz and Jack. (Basically folks, it says that to leave the one you love for the one you lust after is ok. Don't get me wrong, that happens a lot in life, but Disney does try to paint a rainbow)

the Director has said that Will/Davy are mirroring eachother in terms of the love story and its going to play a big part in the next...Liz is turning away from him and becoming uncontrolable like the sea..just like Davy's Calypso.

Tia also seemed to pick up on some sinister Destiny of Will .You look at that scene where she is talking about what happened to davy it focuses heavily on Will and his disturbed reaction..the music is overshadowing and sinister. Tia also seems to know that Will is losing Liz.

so there always has to be a captain of the dutchman?

Unfortunately I can't recall what exactly was said.

But I do get the strong feeling that Jack will trade places with Will at the end

Star wars did it..remember that..and it was successful..the rogue got the girl instead of the wuss. Jack is the most favorite character..even the Children are going t be like "why didnt Jack get her? He's my favorite character" 🙁

the real feel good ending would be for JAck to get what he wants..which I think is Liz.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Unfortunately I can't recall what exactly was said.

But I do get the strong feeling that Jack will trade places with Will at the end

He cant do..because they are making a PotC4..and if Jack is too different people wont like it. People wont want to see Jack lose out to will...seriously..

I feel that maybe. Will's father will step into the position in order to save Will a load of pain..just like what he did with the whipping scene and with that lier's dice game thing... That scene was strange to have in the movie and slightly out of place..but it would make sense if it gets echoed some way in the future.

which is also similar to star wars..Darth vader sacrificed himself to save Luke, His son.

and Hans still ended up with Layah 😂 Boring luke didnt get the girl nd the movie was still an all time good feel movie..

Yes, but difference is Disney to 20th century fox

Havent heard of pirates 4 where that info

The director and Johnny have both said that they want to continue the character of Jack Sparrow and they probably are. If the 3rd movie is a success then it will be a certain. The link for the interview has been posted numerous times on this site..I cant remember where though.

The difference is 20th cent fox yes..but I personally don't look at these movies as typical kiddie Disney movies..These movies were so successful because they have overstepped the boundaries usually set by Disney(violent scenes of whipping, tonnes of sexual refrences,crows pecking out people eyes, dog's being left to die on islands)..I see adults going to these movies..and hardly any children....Adding a character like Jack Sparrow was a huge risk. The very fact they even contemplated a Jack/Liz thing in this move is way over the usual standards of a Disney movie..I feel as if I can expect it to end on a bang instead of a boring whimper. Will/Liz? "meh"..and thats what the majority audience will be saying too..if it was Will/Liz it will be "what a crappy way to end such a great trilogy.." the "Meh" was the factor of the last movie too..everyone knows they secretly wanted to see Jack/Liz get together..So guess what they did with the next movie? 😂

If they decide to sell out and go with the norm..then A LOT of people are going to be pissed at Disney for teasing them with this exciting possibility and then saying "nah, nah, nah, nah, nah!! yoou cant have it!"

Also they seemed to have copied the story of Empire Strikes back to a Tee...with Hans/Jack being frozen/Eaten by a giant squid at the end after he realizes that Layah wants him..Jack relised that Liz wanted him at the end..hence the smug litle smile..and the whole hat thing..

Personally I agree,

Jack and Liz have much better Chemistry and is even more a wrong side of the tracks. And better on screen story than will/liz

However, if Will becomes darker and more Piratey then maybe not so much meh

1: but he's a blacksmith, no, he's a pirate.

Although, I would prefer to see Disney actually do a movie that really does break new ground for them

yeh I agree with you^^

I don't think Will will ever want to truly be a pirate. His father is a constant reminder of what can happen to you if you are. He had that discussion with him..telling his dad off for choosing to become one..and his father also says he doesn't want Will to ever be one..Thats going to come into play in the next movie I think.

..If Will loses Liz then gets an offer from the East India Trading Company (they have the heart) or even Tia (who is suspicious) to becoming the ultimate pirate (leader of the flying Dutchman). To him it's going to be a hard offer to turn down.If he feels as if he cant be what Liz wants him to be as a man..maybe he can become what he thinks she wants the: "ultimate pirate legend" by cutting his heart out . It's what happened to Davy I think. He wanted to be with the Sea goddess Calypso but she ran away..he obviously felt as if he couldn't be good enough for her as a man..and thought he might be good enough for her as a sort of "sea god" himself. (octopus face)

But I actually think that Will's father will step in to stop the worst from happening to his son.. He did it in the whipping scene..and he did it with the dice game..I think that was added to symbolize something bigger in the next..and its probably going to be stopping Will from making the mistake of cutting his heart out to satisfy Liz..because even if he does, He's still not going to get her back..Look at Davy, he never got Calypso back.

That also makes the whole "I don't care about staying on the Dutchman..what matters to me is the key" line to his father once Bill lost against Davy more symbolic... IMO thats totally whats going to be the argument later over Bill coming to save his son from his destiny... ithe argument is going to be: "dad..I don't care if I have to stay here forever ..its LIZ that matters to me" But Bill will probably stop it..and talk sense into him..I think Bill will sacrifice himself for his son one way or another to stop his son having a lonly destiny ahead of him. His dad managed to convince him that whipping him instead of the other man was an act of compassion..So he's probably going to be able to convince Will that he's doing it again for an act of compassion in the next movie..

thats just a theory of mine though^^^🙂 Probably just aload of crap..I just notice that in movies, small things that happen in one film usually symbolize something much bigger in the next...

However, I think Jack may make some sort of actual chosen sacrifice in the next one

Not that he will die, It will be another of those "you will remember this day as the day you almost - - - - - - - - - "

I agree..Liz already has... I think she is probably the first character who has changed drastically..Jack has changed a bit.He's beginning to show that he finds people more important to him than his material possessions. He's also becoming the legend..as opposed bending the truth about his past all the time......Its Will's turn to change the most. He is the honorable man..and we need to remember that the honorable men in the story..are actually the baddies...East India Trading company for example..I can imagine him betraying Liz and Jack for what he feels is the "right..thing"

I agree with both of you a ton. i totally want Jack and Liz to be together, but Disney does paint the rainbow. it will take a LOT for them to make this work, if they do it. if they dont, it will be a let down.

i think its true what you said about the flying dutchman needing a captain. the questions are, how quickly will they kill of Jones?
I would put bets on Will being new captain of the dutchman, because Jack loves the pearl so much. i dont think he would willingly captain another ship if the pearl was around.

as for POTC 4, i have done some reading, and JD and the writers both have made comments that they arent done with the character. BUT i have also read from several sources that it would not be a sequel to this trilogy, it would either be a prequel or a very different story. AKA, this one will tie up nicely and wont leave things open-ended.

yeah i think Will's father is going to have some influence on him not to be a pirate anymore, etc. i have a lot of theories about that. 🙂

Killing off and taking Davy's place will be the end sacrifice.

question is who

1.Will
2.Jack
3.Bill
4.Barbossa

Well I suppose if Star Wars pulled of Layah going with Hans then so could PotC. I personally would love to see Jack finally be with someone who he cares about and trusts. And Liz too... Rather than his character learning nothing at all about showing his emotions to people by the end of it..Its just not realistic.

What of Will though..where is his ending? I seriously think its going to echo what happened with Norrington..Will is going to allow her to be happy with Jack.

I also think that he is going to come close to the edge and almost make the wrong decision based on his loss of Liz..but His dad is going to take the brunt of the pain for him just like he did twice before in the latest movie..he's also going to probably advise him to let Liz go...they would never be happy together ..especially if their rlationship really IS mirroring Davy Jones' relationship with Calypso..

the screenplay writer said this in the commentary..he has 5 rules:

1. No book ends
2. No book ends
3. Never kill the dog
4. always save the Kiss till last
5. Feel free to disagree with these rules.

I have a feeling the "no book ends" thing means no typical and set endings.the fact he says it twice must mean its important to him

"Never Kill the dog"..that means never let the rogue lose anything EVER..he always has to get out of it and win. Never kill him off for good (which would make the whole dog/Jack similarity in the latest movie more relevant)

Save the Kiss till last, In a single movie on its own its all about building up the tension of "are they going to do it?" Both PotC have done this so far...this probably means that in the next movie..we are going to be guessing until the very end who Liz actually chooses. ( its slightly different to what happened in ESB)

Feel free to disagree..I have no idea what the heck that means..is he talking to viewer or himself when writing screenplays..?

You can look at these rules whilst studying one movie on its own..and you can also use them to look at the overall story of a Trilogy.

Interesting and valid points on all counts

SCREW THE LEAKED SCRIPT.

I havent read it or anything, but it sounds awful. 😉

LovelyOne, i couldnt agree with you more on all counts. thanks for posting those rules from the commentary. i LOVE those. 🙂

Maybe the Asian dude will take over the dutchman. lol.

Leia can't have Luke because he's a bRoTher...

Han should have Leia because that's what's in the script 😛 no, but really, they we're meant to be w/ each other since 4... it was pretty obvious... well, if you look at the dog and cat fight thingy, then think about 'the more you hate the more you love' stuff. and they have Chemistry!! wOOt!

Jack should have liz because of their cheMisTry! They look so cool with each other!

WIll should have Liz because they look good with each other... though the chemistry is wearing off... 😬

yep, i'm moving my vote from 'will' to 'jack'!

Originally posted by JaehSkywalker
Leia can't have Luke because he's a bRoTher...

Han should have Leia because that's what's in the script 😛 no, but really, they we're meant to be w/ each other since 4... it was pretty obvious... well, if you look at the dog and cat fight thingy, then think about 'the more you hate the more you love' stuff. and they have Chemistry!! wOOt!

Jack should have liz because of their cheMisTry! They look so cool with each other!

WIll should have Liz because they look good with each other... though the chemistry is wearing off... 😬

yep, i'm moving my vote from 'will' to 'jack'!

They cant make Will/Liz brother and sister..they have already shot themselves in the foot there with the whole blood thing in the first movie....so instead there is this whole Will/Davy similarity thing going on..also Bill turner..

The did look good together..but now Liz has totally changed..Whn i saw him kissing her on the beach...It didnt look right..