Originally posted by Sith'ari
'and was only one of three people who could contend with Sidious in the PT'?
Essentially, some of the producers were questioning as to why Mace Windu's companions got their asses hand to them that quick and with such little effort. Why he brought the so-called "B Team".
Lucas said: "You need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. If Anakin hadn't been injured on Mustafar, he could've beaten the Emperor."
Originally posted by Escape81
Considering how Nick Gillard was responsible for all of the fight scenes and the lightsaber forms, why, yes I am. Not that he's a canon source, but he is a source.
He's not responsible for the lightsaber forms...He once even denied the existance of Vaapad. So please...
Aside of this Anakin is clearly not able to beat Sidious in a full-out fight. He doesn't have the force powers needed to match Sidious although he might have a chance in a sheer lightsaber fight but even this is debateable.
His force powers and lightsaber abilities weren't enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Sidious would simply outmanouver him (like Obi-Wan finally did) or take him down with his force powers.
Anakin would never be able to fight hard against Sidious unless he was in his hot headed idiot state that he was in at Mustafar when he was fighting Obi-wan. If he fights like he did there, Sidious kills him.
Sidious would transfer his spirit to his clones even if Anakin does kill him.
I don't think SIdious even had clone bodies at this point.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't think the force would really care to much if Anakin died because he was actually made by Darth Plagueis according to NEGtC, nlt by the force.
Yet is it not his destiny to destroy the Sith? Albeit, its only arguably him, but its obvious he is Lucas' choice.
But all that kinda stuff makes all these arguments void, so to make it fair game for you guys to argue about, I'll retract my statement about all that philosophical B.S Lucas calls the force 😉
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
No he's not. Saber combat Dooku is, but force power, not even close.
I would go as far as to say that Dooku is a better sword fighter than Sidious. But you are right, Dooku was nowhere near the level of Sidious in terms of the force which is why he was the apprentice.
Also I would say that Sidious wins this battle. In terms of the force he is superior and in terms of saber skill they are probably about equal. I cant be bothered writing some big argument but read Escapes post - he has pretty much summed it up.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
I would go as far as to say that Dooku is a better sword fighter than Sidious. But you are right, Dooku was nowhere near the level of Sidious in terms of the force which is why he was the apprentice.Also I would say that Sidious wins this battle. In terms of the force he is superior and in terms of saber skill they are probably about equal. I cant be bothered writing some big argument but read Escapes post - he has pretty much summed it up.
How does that make any sense? Dooku's a better sword duelist than Sidious, but Anakin is on par with Sidious in terms of saber combat? Anakin beat Dooku, amigo - with just a lightsaber.
May I remind you what happened to Dooku in an all out lightsaber duel against Anakin:
And I'm sure you're going to be the one to argue with the seven pieces of evidence that support that Anakin > Dooku. But oh well.
Originally posted by Advent
How does that make any sense? Dooku's a better sword duelist than Sidious, but Anakin is on par with Sidious in terms of saber combat? Anakin beat Dooku, amigo - with just a lightsaber.
So many factors in that fight I dont know where to begin. Two on one, 80 year old vs two young men, the fact Dooku thought that Sids would help, the fact that Dooku wasnt there to kill Anakin but Anakin wanted Dookus head (literally), Dooku didnt use any force powers on Anakin like sith lightning when we know he was capable.
And I'm sure you're going to be the one to argue with the seven pieces of evidence that support that Anakin > Dooku. But oh well.
I dont want to turn this into another Dooku vs Anakin thread so im not going to argue the point. I just provided sufficient evidence on the matter, and also you cant determine the strength of two competitors on one duel. Otherwise it would be confirmed that Dooku is better than Mace, that Mace is better than Sidious, that Obi-Wan is better that Anakin etc
Originally posted by Rampant ox
So many factors in that fight I dont know where to begin.
So much bullshit fanboyism, I don't even want to begin.
Two on one,
He was defeated in one on one combat, you dolt. And don't play that "f4tigu3" bullshit:
"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "
Seems Dooku was completely revitalized before he faced Anakin one on one.
80 year old
HOLD ON HERE.
Dude, you really are a fanboy. You say he's "80 years old" when it comes to Anakin beating him, but when he's up against someone in the SWVF - you say "Oh, it doesn't matter".
You want proof you are a hypocrite?
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku is 80+ but is said to have the strength of a 40 year old. He was easily able to take on the wonder duo in AOTC, and damn near bet them again in ROTS. He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.. One of my favourite descriptions in the ROTS novel which shows how Dookus age was a no factor.
There you go, you hypocritical guy, you! Have fun with it.
vs two young men,
Oh please. Yoda's 900 years old, he fought a man not even close to his age. Anyways, he was bested in one on one combat, when he was revitalized so this point is defeated. Adding to the fact if you just look above, you virtually pwned yourself.
the fact Dooku thought that Sids would help,
Wrong again. He never thought Sidious would actually help him win the fight or anything. He thought that if he were to be bested, then Sidious would help. Now, it doesn't say that Dooku won't fight to the best of his ability, and it doesn't say he'll go easy. On the contrary actually, if you look below. Sidious only said that he'd manipulate it, so Dooku doesn't die, but Dooku had to fight as best as he could anyways.
the fact that Dooku wasnt there to kill Anakin
He was there to give it his all against Anakin, LOE makes that clear.
"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus." "I will treat it as if it were my crowning achievement," Dooku had promised."
--Labryinth of Evil, Last Chapter.
Clearly Dooku was told to give it his all, and he himself promised he would "treat it as his crowning acheivement" in other words - "fight like he was dying".
And once Dooku realized that Anakin was about to kill him, and that Dooku couldn't contain him - he literally "fought for his life":
From my copy of the NEC, scanned just for you. The ROTS novelization also backs up the fact that Anakin was stronger than Dooku:
"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck
before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."
This is stated directly after it says that Anakin realizes he can use his "fear as a weapon", and it says this because "It is that simple, and that complex. And it is final. Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail." Meaning that once Anakin realizes this, everything else is trivial because Dooku cannot win now. And note that this is said far before Dooku is actually dead.
"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread. "
The one holding himself back is Anakin, btw, just so you don't try to pull some bullshit.
"in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win."
Anakin just decides to win, and he does. Oh, and Sidious himself admits that Anakin is stronger than Dooku, from the ROTS script/movie:
"DARTH SIDIOUS: His death was a necessary loss, which will ensure our victory. Soon I will have a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful than Lord Tyranus."
but Anakin wanted Dookus head (literally),
Sorry, but that is bullshit. Anakin wasn't there to kill Dooku. He was there to capture him, that was made clear to the Jedi. Adding to the fact that if Anakin wanted Dooku dead, apparently all he has to is "decide":
"He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here"
He decided to take Dooku's hand, not his life. And the ROTS novel elaborates that he wouldn't have killed Dooku had Palpatine not gave him "permission" (that's exactly how it's described) to do such.
Dooku didnt use any force powers on Anakin like sith lightning when we know he was capable.
We're not talking about Force powers, we're talking about saber abilities. Nice way to misdirect attention from the fact Anakin beat Dooku in saber combat, which is what we're debating about.
I dont want to turn this into another Dooku vs Anakin thread so im not going to argue the point.
Well, too bad. I don't care if you don't want to or not. You make so much stuff up, and you're so much of a fanboy that you actually go as far as to contradict yourself when it's dealing with Dooku's win. For example, here you said "he's 80!!!" and acted as if he's weak because of that. In the Yoda & Mace vs. Sidious & Dooku, you claim "age is no factor".
I just provided sufficient evidence on the matter,
Don't even act like you accomplished anything, Rampant. You just proved (well I just proved) you're a hypocrite. And your "evidence", which in reality was bullshit, was trumped by my evidence - which included actual quotes, logic, and even a scan from the NEC.
and also you cant determine the strength of two competitors on one duel.
Yes, you can. We're talking about lightsaber abilities for ROTS Dooku and ROTS Anakin. Dooku and Anakin fought with lightsabers in ROTS. Now, since we're discussing lightsaber skills - we can use ROTS as our evidence. Why? Because we're talking about the ROTS versions of these guys. You can't save Dooku, sorry.
Otherwise it would be confirmed that Dooku is better than Mace,
When Dooku beat Mace, he was better than him. We would say that. If we pit ROTS Dooku against ROTS Mace - it's completely different time, therefore because their duel happened in the past, we cannot use that as evidence. However, comparing ROTS Anakin to ROTS Dooku would stand because Anakin beat Dooku in ROTS.
that Mace is better than Sidious,
In saber dueling I'm sure he is.
that Obi-Wan is better that Anakin etc
Anakin was under immense amounts of grief, and not thinking clearly. Plus the fact that Obi-Wan had to gain an advantage of terrain, and run around like a dog, whereas Anakin beat Dooku in a flat-out duel. No terrain advantages, both warriors thinking clearly, etc. It was plainly a fight. Just like a versus fight we'd have here.
Try again, Rampant. You fail as usual.
[Bail Organa] "And so it is..." [/Bail Organa]
Wow. You posted all that to try and convince me of something pointless which is irrelevant to the debate at hand. You also posted it when you knew (because I specifically stated) that I wouldnt argue back because I couldnt care less. You must have alot of time on your hands.
I respect you and your debating skills and I would argue the point (again) on an appropriate thread. Im hoping someone doesnt create one though because it has been argued to the death so many times already that most of the people on these boards cringe when they see it.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Wow. You posted all that to try and convince me of something pointless which is irrelevant to the debate at hand.
No, I posted all that because:
1.) I'm bored.
2.) I love to debate, and even more love to prove people wrong.
3.) It helps me with my college courses (using evidence, debating, etc.)
And it's not pointless to this thread, I'm arguing a point that you made in the thread. So, in essence, it actually does have to do with this thread.
You also posted it when you knew (because I specifically stated) that I wouldnt argue back because I couldnt care less. You must have alot of time on your hands.
It's late, it's a weekday. What else is there to do? I'm already in for the night, so there's not much else to do besides research and pwn fanboys, m i rite?
I respect you and your debating skills and I would argue the point (again) on an appropriate thread.
You can't argue the point because I just buried any chance you have. If you did go on to argue it, you'd be a fanboy, and still get virtually pwned.
Im hoping someone doesnt create one though because it has been argued to the death so many times already that most of the people on these boards cringe when they see it.
It's only been argued to death because fanboys like to think it was a fluke, and still argue like idiots - when people such as Escape, and I have already beaten down any arguments supporting Dooku.