Darth Maul vs. General Grievous

Combatants: Darth Maul during the time of TPM versus General Grievous by LOE.

Setting: Tipoca City, Kamino.

Now I know that this was done before, however, I don't feel like bumping it or searching for it for that matter (as the search system sucks), so here we go. Who wins?

well lol.. although maul is much more powerful grievous wins.. unless maul uses one side of his saber.

Ladies first Advent. Pick your combatant, and present your argument.

Personally, I would have to go with Darth Maul.

Maul was trained in the Sith Arts (from infancy) by one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. He was extremely proficient in lightsaber combat, and in various styles of martial arts.

He is methodical, precise, and an expert in assassination and, if you read the Darth Maul books and Shadow Hunter, it is revealed that he is very skilled in Force-usage, beyond what we saw in The Phantom Menace. He was also able to take on and defeat Anoon Bondara - who was proclaimed to be one of the greatest and most skilled duelists in the Order - with significant ease, as I recall.

well im sorry to say this but everyone is considered one of the greatest and most skilled duelists in the order.. lmao just say that he killed qui-gon.. its more convincive..

Originally posted by Infinity
well im sorry to say this but everyone is considered one of the greatest and most skilled duelists in the order.. lmao just say that he killed qui-gon.. its more convincive..

Convincing. Convincive isn't a word.

Secondly, I'd suggest reading Shadow Hunter or Cloak of Deception for testimony to how powerful Bondara was.

sorry i never heard of that bondara dude. im more into ot char novels rather than pt novels. like jedi academy is really good, as is the njo series. i plan on reading thrawn novels when im done njo.

My favorite book is probably Legacy of the Jedi. The best bit about it imo was a chance to see Count Dooku as a jedi, both when he was a student at a temple, and master of Jinn.

My favorite comic would have to be Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith and Tales of the Jedi: The Sith War.

i simply cant wait until the darth bane novel it looks so good. and the darth plagueis one.

Oops, wrong forum - damn, too late to edit.

NOTE: Will no one respond to this post at all. This response is purely for Sith'ari to answer on his own. I'd appreciate it if no one would interfere with our debate. Thanks in advanced, though I'm sure someone won't listen, lol.

I pick General Grievous. Now, let me first start out by addressing the Maul versus Obi-Wan fight in TPM.

After Qui-Gon is killed, and the doors open we know that Darth Maul is described as being "The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault", and indeed his assault was wild. Now if you compare the way General Grievous fights, I'd submit that's as wild as anything else. "Obi-Wan, while not so experienced as Qui-Gon, was quicker. Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down" Also, we know for a fact that Grievous is far quicker than TPM Obi-Wan and far more skilled as well, while Kenobi had the Force to help with his reflexes, Grievous has cybernetics that vastly enhance his reflexes, and the like. So, it's likely to assume that Maul doesn't have very many advantages here aside from the Force, which I'll address later.

Another excerpt from the TPM novel states this: "The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly." - so, it seems that TPM Kenobi was even able to match Maul for awhile, and obviously Grievous' attacks are more wild, fast, and unexpected than Obi-Wan's were in TPM, so it's even more reason to assume Grievous would win. After that it goes on to say that because Darth Maul is stronger (more than likely meant physically stronger) than Kenobi, he was able to "wear the young Jedi down eventually". Grievous doesn't have to worry about that too much, seeing as he's practically a full cyborg, and Grievous is also physically stronger than Maul.

Now, we'll go on to Jedi kills.

Grievous has had far more lightsaber to lightsaber confrontation. We know he's killed such people as Master T'Chooka, Adi Gallia, and numerous other Jedi. At one point, Grievous is able to hold of five (or was it seven?) Jedi at once with only two lightsabers. Including Aayla Secura, and Council member, Ki-Adi Mundi. As I said, he was able to easily slice through Master T'Chooka who is described by the omniscient narrator as having "great skill" and being "strong in the Force":

Council Member and Jedi Master, Adi Gallia, as I said, was first pwned in a saberlock by General Grievous' extra hands, which I'd submit would happen to Maul as well probably:

That's two out of the numerous other Jedi he's killed. The Jedi Council even gives acknowledgment that General Grievous himself, not the army, is a threat to the Republic and the Jedi Order. They note his skill as exactly "the near indestructibility of a droid wedded with the skill of a deadly warrior":

I fail to see how Maul's Teräs Käsi skills will help him. By the time he throws a kick, his leg and arm will be severed from his body. In Labryinth of Evil, he's described as "Once merely a barbaric living being; now a cyborg monstrosity, devoted to death and destruction. Already the butcher of entire populations; the devastator of countless worlds...". Yes, you can say "go read Shadow Hunter!" or "Read the Darth Maul comics!", but I'll tell you I've read them, I've argued for Maul countless times - he will not win. I mean, didn't Grievous compete with Asajj and Durge at the same time?

From Labryinth of Evil: "The Geonosians had arranged for Grievous to be nothing but anger and rage. And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg."

As it seems, that is completely true. There's few Jedi that are capable of defeating him, as we've seen many fall to his blade. Losing to ROTS Obi-Wan is hardly a negative for Grievous, btw. And it even says Count Dooku had had trouble at times to outduel Grievous. We also know that he fights smart if he's being outdueled, definitely smarter than Darth Maul ever was.

"These Jedi were more proficient than the ones he had fought in the bunker, but not skilled enough to challenge him."

This is just proving how Jedi really are no match for Grievous, he takes them out within a split second of raising his lightsaber. He's obviously a very capable duelist, to think Maul is more skilled with a lightsaber is ridiculous. Grievous annihilates Jedi as if they were nothing. He's also capable of dodging fully automatic fire, and ripping an assault vehicle down with apparent ease with his lightsaber.

As well, I doubt Maul will even come close to penetrating Grievous' body with punches and kicks, given Obi-Wan couldn't even do shit do it, and the fact it withstood a friggin' explosion. As for Maul having Force powers, true - he does indeed have Force powers. Then again, so did Ki-Adi-Mundi, Adi Gallia, Master T'Chooka, and Shaak Ti, among all the other Jedi Grievous killed. The man dodged a Force push by Ki-Adi Mundi. And even when he was Force pushed by ROTS Obi-Wan, who's considerably stronger than Darth Maul in the Force, he got up as it was nothing.

As well, from Dark Rendezvous - "Possibly Asajj Ventress, his protegee, would be there, clamoring to be made his apprentice. He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist."

Grievous is described as being "more powerful than Ventress", who I'd rank equivalent or possibly above Darth Maul. Anyways, to sum up this post: Grievous wins.

I won't reply to much of that, because I mostly agree with it - in a saber fight Maul would get owned, however Grievous' main weakness seems to be force crush, so couldn't Maul theoretically just crush his vital organs like Mace did, and then proceed to take him on with a saber in his weakened state, and possibly emerge victorious (maybe even get in a killing blow while Grievous momentarily stops due to the agony of the crush)?

Also, about the jedi masters that Grievous has killed: that's great for Grievous and all but none of them were really on the level of jedi like Bondara (imo) and Jinn (definitely). Although I suppose he did defeat Assaj and Durge together, so whatever.

I also doubt that Maul would be dumb enough to kick Grievous..

*Tries not to get involved in the private argument, but: Greivous didn't take on Ventress and Durge, that was non-canon, I thought.*

Oh right, lol that's cool, it kind of works out in my favour anyways.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
[B]however Grievous' main weakness seems to be force crush, so couldn't Maul theoretically just crush him like Mace did, and then proceed to take him on with a saber in his weakened state, and possibly emerge victorious (maybe even get in a killing blow while Grievous momentarily stops due to the agony of the crush)?

I don't think Maul has ever shown us the ability to perform Force crush. Then even if he does (which I'm pretty positive he doesn't), he'd have to be smart enough to figure out Grievous' lungs are even a weakness. He's never seen Grievous before, he really doesn't know anything about him.

Also, about the jedi masters that Grievous has killed: that's great for Grievous and all but none of them were really on the level of jedi like Bondara (imo) and Jinn (definitely). Although I suppose he did defeat Assaj and Durge together, so whatever.

Okay, so Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura, and apparently two others working together aren't as good as Qui-Gon alone? While I'd agree the Jedi on a single level weren't as good as Qui-Gon, it's the amount of Jedi at a time he faced would more than likely overwhelm Qui-Gon. Mainly the point is: the rate, and apparent ease of which he took them out speaks enough for him.

I also doubt that Maul would be dumb enough to kick Grievous..

True, of course though, it's just the possibility that even if he does throw a kick, it won't have any impact on Grievous really.

@jollyjim:

*Tries not to get involved in the private argument, but: Greivous didn't take on Ventress and Durge, that was non-canon, I thought.*

I don't know, that's why I asked, lol. Nonetheless, he's more powerful than Ventress as stated in DR, who I'd rank Maul's equivalent, or possibly even above.

'I don't think Maul has ever shown us the ability to perform Force crush. Then even if he does (which I'm pretty positive he doesn't), he'd have to be smart enough to figure out Grievous' lungs are even a weakness. He's never seen Grievous before, he really doesn't know anything about him.'

Force grip (he does this is Shadowhunter) is force crush, requiring more control but less power.
And maybe so, I was going under the assumption that each opponent would know much about the other but yeah, Maul probably wouldn't be smart enough and probably would just go straight into a saber duel, which he would presumably lose.

'While I'd agree the Jedi on a single level weren't as good as Qui-Gon, it's the amount of Jedi at a time he faced would more than likely overwhelm Qui-Gon. Mainly the point is: the rate, and apparent ease of which he took them out speaks enough for him.'

This is all true. Really, my whole argument lies under whether Maul can take him out with the force. Now if he knows Grievous well, he would be cautious and rather than engaging him in a saber duel, would likely try to destroy him with the force, or at least weaken him. However if he knows nothing about Grievous, he would likely run head on into a saber duel, and likely lose.

Anyways, how about that philosophy debate? This seems basically settled. We can move onto another Star Wars versus debate, preferably one where we can at least argue or philosophy. Though I'll tell you I'm more of a Star Wars connoisseur than a philosophical one.

Maul knows all about philosophy! He wins!

Well we could continue and argue under the assumption that Maul would know grievous well, in which case he has a chance.
In my eyes, Maul knowing nothing about Grievous is an unfair advantage, because one of the things that makes grievous so deadly is his unorthodox, unpredictable nature - surprising his opponent.

I don't see why we would operate under the assumption they know each other. If that's the case than how could you ever say Luke will "observe his opponent" instead of instantly killing him, if he already were to know what Nihilus can do (when discussing their instakills/removing self from Force)?