Must Debate!
Though I would assume Grievous would win, Maul has a fair shot, he actually did have Obi-Wan beat, he lured him into the position to Force Push him in the pit, and from there he could have easily killed him, but he was overconfident, drinking in his own power, and didn't think to kick down the other Lighsaber. Darth Maul is pretty much emotionless, very well disciplined, so the thing Dooku said to Grievous something along the lines of "If you do not have Surprise, and Fear, it is better to retreat" it would be like Grievous' Obi-Wan fight. Maul would definately have a fighting chance against him, and if he used his Force Powers, would likely be victorious
Oh, did he have his 4 Arms at LOE time? That's what I based this on mostly, with 2 Arms, I would bet Maul could win
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Though I would assume Grievous would win, Maul has a fair shot, he actually did have Obi-Wan beat, he lured him into the position to Force Push him in the pit, and from there he could have easily killed him, but he was overconfident, drinking in his own power, and didn't think to kick down the other Lighsaber.
How is that relevant at all to this fight? He had TPM Kenobi beat. . .okay? How does that mean anything in this fight?
General Grievous beat people like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura (those three, and two others at one time), T'Chooka, Soon Baytes, and numerous other Jedi masters, knights, and so on.
TPM Kenobi is a gnat compared to General Grievous. I'd submit Grievous would've done a far better job than Maul against a pissed off Kenobi. But that doesn't matter really: how is him having TPM Kenobi beat relevant?
Darth Maul is pretty much emotionless, very well disciplined,
He's also not as intelligent as Grievous either. And how will being "emotionless" save him from getting his head, arm, and both legs severed by Grievous' blades? How will being "well disciplined" save him from two finely placed blades - one through his heart, the other through his abdomen?
Answer: It won't.
so the thing Dooku said to Grievous something along the lines of "If you do not have Surprise, and Fear, it is better to retreat" it would be like his Obi-Wan fight.
Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense at all. How does Dooku's quote mean it'd be like the fight in TPM? As well, that quote itself is pretty meaningless, and holds no bearing over a fight.
Maul would definately have a fighting chance against him, and if he used his Force Powers, would likely be victorious
I can only say "no", and "read my previous post". If Maul engaged Grievous in a lightsaber duel, he'd die.
Originally posted by Advent
How is that relevant at all to this fight? He had TPM Kenobi beat. . .okay? How does that mean anything in this fight?
Originally posted by Advent
General Grievous beat people like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura (those three, and two others at one time), T'Chooka, Soon Baytes, and numerous other Jedi masters, knights, and so on.
Originally posted by Advent
[QUOTE=7105947]TPM Kenobi is a gnat compared to General Grievous. I'd submit Grievous would've done a far better job than Maul against a pissed off Kenobi. But that doesn't matter really: how is him having TPM Kenobi beat relevant?
Originally posted by Advent
He's also not as intelligent as Grievous either. And how will being "emotionless" save him from getting his head, arm, and both legs severed by Grievous' blades? How will being "well disciplined" save him from two finely placed blades - one through his heart, the other through his abdomen?Answer: It won't.
Originally posted by Advent
Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense at all. How does Dooku's quote mean it'd be like the fight in TPM? As well, that quote itself is pretty meaningless, and holds no bearing over a fight.
Originally posted by Advent
I can only say "no", and "read my previous post". If Maul engaged Grievous in a lightsaber duel, he'd die.
Answer the question did LOE Grievous have 4 Arms or 2? With 4 he would win the duel, no doubt, that's why I voted Grievous, but with just 2, Maul would probably win, especially if he used the Force. You seem to be Angry a lot of the time
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
To show Maul wasn't less than Obi-Wan
No one said he was. However, during TPM the fight was described as "evenly" for awhile, Maul was pushed back, and he was outmaneuvered at a point by an enraged padawan. While he's better on paper, Kenobi was able to contend.
So? He lost to ROTS Obi-Wan, by himself, those other Jedi have no relevance here,
Actually they do. I hardly see how taking on five Jedi at a time, all of whom combined are more powerful than Maul, is irrelevant. It's showing you his saber skills, and the fact he's near unstoppable by Jedi.
And losing to ROTS Obi-Wan is hardly a bad thing. If you recall, didn't Kenobi almost die? Yeah, had there been no blaster he would've been killed. TPM Kenobi, however, would've been led to slaughter will minimal ease, whereas he gave Maul trouble.
Either way, the only real reason why Obi-Wan actually was able to disarm Grievous is because of Soresu. I can't see Maul blocking 16 swings a second given he knows Juyo.
Maul was about as good as Mace I would say,
You have to be a fanboy then. ROTS Mace Windu would kill Maul. Maul cannot even beat ROTS Obi-Wan. LOL! As good as Mace? LMFAO. You must not know much about Mace then. Maul would be crushed. Put up a good lightsaber fight, but not that good. Grievous would have a better chance in a lightsaber duel against Mace than Maul.
Anyways, have you read LOE? Mace and Grievous fought:
"Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing."
As forceful as any Mace had ever met, and he's noted as being well trained. If he can give Mace trouble, it's ridiculous to assume Maul could beat him.
"His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts."
Grievous' computer brain can go so far as to analyze what he should do to win. While it didn't exactly work on Kenobi, that's hardly reason to think it won't work on Maul. Who is not as level headed, and not as smart as Obi-Wan is.
he may not be able to take hordes of Jedi, but he can kill them solo in a duel, which is what this fight is about
I'd submit the Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Aayla Secura, and two other Jedi Knights pose more of a threat than any single Jedi Maul's ever faced. And you don't think Grievous can take out Jedi in a solo duel? Haha. I guess that's why he killed Adi Gallia one on one:
I guess that's why his Jedi kill count is through the roof (either twenty or thirty Jedi kills).
Seriously, Maul could never beat Grievous in a lightsaber duel. Maul is not nearly as good as ROTS Obi-Wan, who would wipe his ass with Maul. Adding to the fact Maul doesn't use a defensive form, which I'd submit is what actually saved him.
And obviously not he can't off Jedi with ease in a single duel, since he was surprised by a single padawan and the fight was described as "evenly" for a time. If you'll read what I wrote about the TPM fight, you'd know.
He used Strategy to beat him, and to show he wasn't weaker than Obi-Wan
Strategy? Lol. You realize Grievous is a mastermind, military genius? First of all, Maul is nowhere even close to being as smart, and strategic as Grievous. And Grievous is more powerful than TPM Kenobi, he's more powerful than AOTC Kenobi, he's more powerful than Qui-Gon.
And again, Grievous is stated to be "more powerful than Asajj Ventress", who was giving both Obi-Wan and Anakin right before ROTS a run for their money. Adding to the fact Asajj is equal to, or possibly even above Maul.
General Grievous relied on surprise and Fear, they wouldn't affect Maul at all, thats how he beat most of the Jedi, Dooku said without it, it would be better to retreat
Oh? Surprise wouldn't affect Maul?
"The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit."
Being caught off guard means he was surprised. Given it's expanded upon that he was surprised. So, you're simply wrong. Anyways, Grievous did not rely upon fear (since I've already established Maul can be surprised):
How is this guy "fearing" Grievous? He's not. "Skilled and courageous", seems this guy didn't fear his death at all, but guess what? He died, too. Feel free to try again.
He needs the Fear/Surprise to win, the Jedi feared him, and wouldn't be fighting at normal, Maul would be focused
Prove Grievous needs fear and surprise to win. Oh? You can't? Probably because I've already proven that Maul can be surprised (TPM novel), and that Grievous kills a Jedi Master described as "strong in the Force" and "great skills" without needing fear. And he does it with minimal ease.
Count Dooku's words are some bullshit it seems. You cannot take advice literally. If we were to rely on people's word, then Anakin is a "better Jedi" than Obi-Wan, he's a stronger one, but not a "better" one. You are taking the Count's quote far out of context.
Originally posted by Mesirus
i'd definatly say maul, he is flesh and blood, so can react better than the robot general, plus he has force powers, greievous just have 4 sabers
Force powers have little effect on GG. Also GG has a robotically enhanced brain, his reactions are better than Mauls even without the force.
Originally posted by Mesirus
i'd definatly say maul, he is flesh and blood, so can react better than the robot general, plus he has force powers, greievous just have 4 sabers
What does "flesh and blood" have to do with anything? I'm pretty sure the twenty plus Jedi Grievous has killed, including Council Member Adi Gallia, are of flesh and blood. Grievous' cybernetics enhance his reflexes beyond belief, they make him faster than you can imagine, and they give him more physical strength than anyone in Star Wars naturally has. Just read this quote:
"His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts."
The computer lets him know what to do. And Grievous on his own is far more intelligent and battle worthy than Maul, with a droid body and electronic enhancements - he's basically just what they described him, a "killing machine".
And Force powers? The man dodged a Force push from Ki-Adi-Mundi. Maul more than likely wouldn't attempt a Force grip, and even if he did - we have no idea of how bad it'd affect Grievous, given it's even less damaging than Mace's Force crush. Force powers will not save Maul from being diced in half again.
'Maul more than likely wouldn't attempt a Force grip, and even if he did - we have no idea of how bad it'd affect Grievous, given it's even less damaging than Mace's Force crush.'
Why would it be less damaging than Mace's force crush? It would require less control to do (bigger area), and I'm pretty sure that Maul has the raw power to pull it off - though I'll have to skim through ShadowHunter to post some examples.
Originally posted by Sith'ari
Why would it be less damaging than Mace's force crush? It would require less control to do (bigger area), and I'm pretty sure that Maul has the raw power to pull it off - though I'll have to skim through ShadowHunter to post some examples.
Because for one, Force grip isn't even as powerful as Force crush. For two, Maul doesn't have the "raw power" to pull anything off near the level of Mace Windu. He's not even close on the scale in terms of Force powers. I'd submit Sidious' lightning is more powerful than Dooku's simply because Sidious himself is more powerful in the Force. Same with Mace and Maul.
And what are you talking about, "require less control"? The technique itself? You have to be in their line of sight, and you just said previously that it "requires more control but less power".
Originally posted by Advent
Because for one, Force grip isn't even as powerful as Force crush.
You mean force grip requires less raw power than force crush does right, because Force Grip can be as powerful as force crush depending on how much (energy, concentration, power etc.) you put into it, just like force crush can be more so than grip.
Anyways in response, just because something requires more raw power to affect it (crush, lft etc.), it doesn't mean that it would necessarily be harder to do - take this passage from ShadowHunter for instance:
She turned her focus back to their surroundings. It
still rankled her that she hadn't noticed the Cthons before
they had attacked, and she had vowed to herself not to let
something like that happen again. Seeking out life-forms
around her with the Force was a task with varying degrees of
difficulty. Intelligent, Force-sensitive beings were usually
easy to spot, of course, while lower-level forms-insects and
animals, for example-did not broadcast nearly much of a blip
on her mental radar. It was true that her mastery of the
Force was nowhere near perfect, but that was no excuse for
not doing the best she could. Her Twi'lek Master had once
explained to her that sensitivity and fine-tuning came with
time. "As a Padawan," he had said, "I could push boulders
around with ease, but seeds were next to impossible."
As you should be able to see from the passage, Annon Bondara as a padawan would be able to effortlessley push heavy boulders aorund, yet struggle with tiny seeds. You see, while the boulders were clearly heavier and require more force power to move, they also hold a much bigger presence in the force than the tiny seeds do, and thus require much less control to move and thus are easier to move.
It can easily be debated that performing a force grip would be harder than performing a force crush on the level of Mace's, and I'm pretty sure Maul has the raw force strength to be able to pull it off.
Originally posted by Advent
For two, Maul doesn't have the "raw power" to pull anything off near the level of Mace Windu. He's not even close on the scale in terms of Force powers. I'd submit Sidious' lightning is more powerful than Dooku's simply because Sidious himself is more powerful in the Force. Same with Mace and Maul.
I totally agree, however I don't get your point. If you're implying that Mace's force crush was the upper limit of his raw force strength, may I ask for proof?
Originally posted by Advent
And what are you talking about, "require less control"? The technique itself? You have to be in their line of sight, and you just said previously that it "requires more control but less power".
I don't get why you're confused - Crush requires more force power to pull of, but not as much control as Grip does...
I say Grievous would win. Grievous can use two sabers to keep Maul's doublesaber still and use the other two to attack Maul's head. Grievous is an overwhelming fighter who has taken on the best of the Jedi and survived. He killed several Jedi on Geonosis and many hundreds more in the Clone Wars (not the new TV show, which is biased toward the Republic)
