Originally posted by darthgoober
Technically, Jesus is second to God, then the Holy Spirit, then Michael, but Michael's power isn't his own, he gets it from God so I don't know if that counts.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTUWell technically this is true since Lucifer is a mistranslation and wasn't refering to the devil in the first place...
Sorry DC statements have been messing up my mind, I've crossed it with the Bilbe.
But I still recall that Michael > Lucifer in Bible
But that's just one take on it.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Well technically this is true since Lucifer is a mistranslation and wasn't refering to the devil in the first place...But that's just one take on it.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTUI'm glad that you understand this much at least. It'd be pretty painful trying to explain how many different translations there are because of how many different languages the bible went through. . .
There is no actual proof that he was the Devil.
He was a angel that went over to the "dark side"
Lucifer actually means: The one that will bring the light.
However it's my beleif that the original was not even talking to about/an angel. . .
Originally posted by darthgoober
If we go by feats to determine the outcome of this battle, the Beyonders biggest feat is destroying Multi-Death. Thanos with the power of TOAA, was able to destroy The Living Tribunal, who pulls rank on Multi-Death, and is a bigger feat.
Wut up darth..
I disagree with this friend.
Death, while NOT as powerful as LT, is more indestructible than LT...her role spans farther than LT.
The Concept of Death applies to ALL life in the Omni-verse, going beyond even LT's jurisdiction.
When Thanos absorbed LT and the rest, where do you think their Life-Forces went? Straight to Death's Realm. And if they were erased/nullified in the absorption, their Life-Forces would go to Oblivion, which is Death's counterpart.
Others have erased Universes, even the Multi-verse itself has been rubbed out, but Death has only been eradicated ONCE, and that was by the Beyonder.
Originally posted by darthgoober
The Living Tribunal were afraid of the Beyonder, there exist no proof that the Tribunal was afraid of him. He doesn't say a word, Eternity pleads, but not the Tribunal. The only time he speaks is after Multi-Death is gone and he says "Thus passeth the old way!".
I have to say that there is proof.
Living Tribunal by his very purpose would be forced to act if a being is threatening the Multiversal balance.
The "Mighty" new the impending danger including LT, it was repeated many times, the danger the Multi-verse was facing, even the Watcher's entire race agreed to interefere, which is unheard of.
I doubt LT was standing around for fun, LT felt powerless, (this isn't an opinion, the story line certifies this)
Originally posted by darthgoober
Now the Tribunal is undoubtedly more powerful than Eternity, and if he were that set against the passing of Multi-Death, he would have been the speaker, because his word carries the most weight among the abstracts.
Actually I recently discovered that's the Multi-verse that speaks to Beyonder.
I always thought it was Eternity the Universe, but during a debate I did indepth research into that story, I was really researching Death in the issue, when I had that moment and realized, all this time that was the Multi-verse all along.
Multi-verse is still below LT, just had to thow that in.
Originally posted by darthgoober
It's more likely that he was just there as an observer because of the scope of the event.
We can come up with many reasons why he was there under the blanket of speculation, but I think it's very clear that LT was afraid as were the Abstracts including Eternity(Multi-verse).
Originally posted by darthgoober
Thanos was more powerful, because everybody risked oblivion to wrest the power from Thanos. You see, they didn't like the thought of Multi-Deaths passing, but the thought of Thanos with that much power had to be stopped at any cost, even if EVERYTHING was destroyed in the process.
But Multi-Death passing would bring about Multiversal inbalance which would lead to Multiversal collapse.
Thus we have to go back to the FEAR idea, it seems logical that the only reason LT and the Abstracts did nothing was FEAR.
Originally posted by darthgoober
the Beyonder says "For a guy who's still basically omnipotent, I'm exhausted!". Well exhaustion is not a factor with an endless energy supply. Even a person with the power gem never suffers from exhaustion.
😂
Come on darth, he obviously meant it as a figure of speech.
Beyonder was more powerful than the Multi-verse combined even after he used all that power to ersae Death.
Let us not forget, by this point Beyonder's self imposed limitations where rediculous.
In the Dr Strange crossover that was right before the Death being killed issue, Beyonder allowed his body to be as vulnerable as any humans, his human body got drunk in the Dr Strange story, and he was so drunk and vulnerable that Dr Strange could of hurt him.
This madness of enjoying limitation and vulnerability carried on into his Post-retcon era and beyond.
As the Maker, Beyonder's final incarnation, he still imposes limits.
Originally posted by darthgoober
He wasn't trying to. Just look, Warlock says "There's another you overlooked". She wasn't there pissing him off so he didn't think about it.
Originally posted by darthgoober
She wasn't touched because she wasn't present at the fight and her domain exist outside of space and time(which is what he absorbed).Not necessarily because she wasn't there, your second reason is right on the button.
[QUOTE=7166959]Originally posted by darthgoober
[B] He was angry beyond rational, which is why he didn't absorb absolutely EVERYTHING. He left the realm of Mistress Death and Atleza both of which exist outside of space and time(they both the exist outside of conventional reality, notice that Thanos says he absorbs all of space and time, NOT all of reality).
Actually Time and Space is Reality.
The only requirement to bring back the Universe is Space and Time
Thanos absorbed everything that was in his power to absorb, be it the Universe or the Multi-verse.
"Nothing Remained"
Death could not be touched by Thanos, because of the way the Multi-verse is structured.
This is the architecture of the Multiverse:
See those little Purple Balls, thats where Atleza is (the Cosmic Anchor of the Universe)...and every little Purple Ball is the Domain of an Anchor of a Universe ...Each Domain is Outside the Multiverse...Untouched by Space or Time....
The much bigger Blue Balls represent EACH a Universe, and the SUM of the Blue Balls is the Multi-verse.
Anything Outside the Blue Balls is Untouched by the Space & Time that encompasses Multi-Eternity/Infinity, since it is Outside the Multi-verse.
Here's a pep of the Inside of the Cosmic Vortex, Warlock once travelled with in it.
With in the Cosmic Vortex but Outside the Multi-verse, lies Oblivion.
Oblivion swallows Universes for a living.
If a Universe Collapses, Folds, is Nullified, or an inbalance tears the fabric of Space and Time...Oblivion absorbs it into Nothingness, the same goes for any substance/life force that is disintegrated/erased.
Death's Realm is somewhere with in the Cosmic Vortex...
Hey Mr M. how's it goin'?
I was wondering when you were going to jump in on this?(See, I told you we were going to end up going at it about all this stuff sometime 😂 )
Alright, let's get this party started.
While the CONCEPT of death may be omniversal, there is no proof that the aspect destroyed by the Beyonder destroyed is any more than the multiversal aspect. And trying to compare the two is like comparing being able to destroy a Darkseid avatar, to being able to destroy the actual Darkseid. Destroying the multiversal aspect of Death is completely within the TOAA's power(I'll explain later), he was just never STUPID enough to do it because he possesses true omniscience.
I stand by statements about LT standing there. Even you have to admit that his word carried more weight than any of the aspects present. If he were leading the assembly, he would have spoken up. It makes no sense for him to stand around with his thumb up his ass if he were against the issue(well technically it does if you consider the recton). And the story never certified that he felt powerless, Dave and the Beyonder ASSUMED he felt powerless, there's a big difference. But as you said, we could go back and forth all day about why he stood there and didn't speak, but there's really no actual proof one way or the other. I'm not using the instance as proof of LT's being more powerful, I'm just saying that it can't be used as showing LT being afraid. So I'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Your perfectly welcome to say that the Beyonder was just using a figure of speech. Kind of like using the word omnipotent as a figure of speech to describe a level of power that is unfathomable to whoever it is that you're addressing. The fact that the Beyonder isn't omnipotent was shown in the first Secret Wars when he was beaten by Doom BEFORE he limited his power. Omnipotence means infinite power, and as I've already pointed out, infinity is a constant. It cannot be added to, subtracted from, multiplied, or divided, because the answer is always the same. Notice that when Thanos captured the HOTU, TOAA wasn't present. Thanos at first believed that he had never existed. That's because he had to abandon his power for Thanos to take it. Otherwise no matter how much power Thanos absorbed, TOAA would still have had an infinite amount while Thanos only had as much as he absorbed.
Time and space are two ASPECTS of reality. That's why they are all represented by seperate Infinity Gems. Those two aspects are what Thanos absorbed into himself. Notice that there is also a soul gem, which represents another aspect of reality. And who benefits the most from souls in Marvel.......Death. With the power of the supreme being, Thanos had control over every aspect of existence. That's why I said that the Beyonders feat of destroying Death was within the range of TOAA's abilities. But like I said, he was never stupid enough to do it because he know it's a vital part of existence. You see if Death were outside of Thanos's power and she was the one the live force of all present went to the power that Death would have acquired from that would have been unbelievable. You yourself have stated that LT is capable of creating a universe. With that much power, she could have easily created her own universe and set up shop as TOAA of it. She didn't do that. She was actually grateful for him setting things right.
Originally posted by darthgoober
While the CONCEPT of death may be omniversal, there is no proof that the aspect destroyed by the Beyonder destroyed is any more than the multiversal aspect.
Actually I was referring to the Thanos incident.
I know it was Multi-Death that was erased, although all there was between 1984 and 1986 was the Multi-verse and the Beyond Realm, then in November 86', the New Universe was created for Marvel.
Originally posted by darthgoober
And trying to compare the two is like comparing being able to destroy a Darkseid avatar, to being able to destroy the actual Darkseid.
Comparing the two?
darth, did you read my post? lol...
I never suggested Multi- Death was anything like anything else than what she is.
(for the record)
Originally posted by darthgoober
Destroying the multiversal aspect of Death is completely within the TOAA's power(I'll explain later), he was just never STUPID enough to do it because he possesses true omniscience.
I wouldn't doubt it for a second he could.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I stand by statements about LT standing there. Even you have to admit that his word carried more weight than any of the aspects present. If he were leading the assembly, he would have spoken up.
Since it was a Multiversal in-balance Beyonder was going to cause, that falls into LT's jurisdiction...any other time he would of intervened.
Korvac was taking over ONE Universe, and LT came through.
It must have been an inability to act.
Originally posted by darthgoober
It makes no sense for him to stand around with his thumb up his ass if he were against the issue(well technically it does if you consider the recton).Your looking at it too subjectively.
In 1984, Eternity had more pull than LT, which is why Eternity says, "it is MY Destiny we must consider...for I encompass all"
Two years earlier, 1982, during Korvac crap of a comic, LT's Ultimate Judgemnet was a super nova....when Gladiator of the shiar can contained a near super nova explosion.
See what I mean.
[QUOTE=7173150]Originally posted by darthgoober
[B] And the story never certified that he felt powerless, Dave and the Beyonder ASSUMED he felt powerless, there's a big difference.
Well the Watcher said, Owen Reece was the Most powerful being in the Multi-verse
besides the Beyonder.
And there we see a clear mug shot of the Living Tribunal...
Now the Watcher doesn't assume, he knows.
So if Molecule Man is More powerful than LT, imagine Beyonder.
Originally posted by darthgoober
But as you said, we could go back and forth all day about why he stood there and didn't speak, but there's really no actual proof one way or the other.
The Watcher is qualified to make those claims, with certainty.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Your perfectly welcome to say that the Beyonder was just using a figure of speech.
Definitely..
Originally posted by darthgoober
The fact that the Beyonder isn't omnipotent was shown in the first Secret Wars when he was beaten by Doom BEFORE he limited his power.
I'm not going to take anything away from Doom.
Doom always somehow does the impossible.
In the infinity War, it was Doom and Doom alone that got the closest taking the Gauntlet from Magus....mind you this is a guy that put Eternity in a Coma.
At the very last instant, LT powered up the Gauntlet right before Magus handed it over.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Time and space are two ASPECTS of reality. That's why they are all represented by seperate Infinity Gems. Those two aspects are what Thanos absorbed into himself.
Actually Time and Space is Reality.
There was Nothing there but Oblivion. and Oblivion = Nothing
Darkness, no light, no Soul gem.
The other Gems are not essential for Reality to exist.
"Power Gem-Mind Gem-Soul Gem"
These Gems can do nothing for Reality, since you don't need Power, Minds or Souls for a Universe to exist.
The Reality Gem is useless without a Reality for it to manipulate, and a Reality consist of Time and Space.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Notice that there is also a soul gem, which represents another aspect of reality.
That was Adam Warlock's Soul Gem he was using for light when he entered Oblivion.
Originally posted by darthgoober
You yourself have stated that LT is capable of creating a universe. With that much power, she could have easily created her own universe and set up shop as TOAA of it. She didn't do that.
But Death doesn't absorb their power, once your in Death's realm your Life Force is completely powerless and under her control, if she decides to increase your power with her own she can do that, like she did with Thanos.
When Thanos absorbed the LT and the Cosmics, it was Thanos that sucked up all that energy, not Death when they all landed in her realm.
The watcher is a freaking stooge, and yes he assumes.
During the onslaught saga he said that his job of watching the 616 earth was over like it was destroyed... but guess what?
So no, the Watcher makes observations, they are however subjective based on what he knows. Or are you going to allow him as such a valid souce that Phoenix is second only to whoever it was Uatu said it was?
I didn't want to have to do this but....
The Beyonder recton did more than just alter his level of power. It also altered the power of EVERY abstract that was ranked over him after it. It effectively made every abstract that was ranked over him(Multi Eternity, LT, and certainly TOAA) capable of doing ANYTHING that he ever did on panel. Now to my knowledge, TOAA was first referenced in Warlock and the Infinity Watch #1(I could be wrong about that though so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), which came out after the Beyonder recton. He was there for introduced as being capable of doing far more than the Beyonder was ever proven to be able to do on panel. That means that there is absolutely NO way it can be proven that he is in anyway superior to TOAA in terms of power. It has been proven however that the Beyonder's power has limits(Doom incident). The most anyone can argue by way of on panel proof, is that the Beyonder could stalemate TOAA, and considering the proof of the Beyonder not truly being omnipotent, it's not really reasonable to argue even that.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I didn't want to have to do this but....
The Beyonder recton did more than just alter his level of power. It also altered the power of EVERY abstract that was ranked over him after it. It effectively made every abstract that was ranked over him(Multi Eternity, LT, and certainly TOAA) capable of doing ANYTHING that he ever did on panel. Now to my knowledge, TOAA was first referenced in Warlock and the Infinity Watch #1(I could be wrong about that though so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), which came out after the Beyonder recton. He was there for introduced as being capable of doing far more than the Beyonder was ever proven to be able to do on panel. That means that there is absolutely NO way it can be proven that he is in anyway superior to TOAA in terms of power. It has been proven however that the Beyonder's power has limits(Doom incident). The most anyone can argue by way of on panel proof, is that the Beyonder could stalemate TOAA, and considering the proof of the Beyonder not truly being omnipotent, it's not really reasonable to argue even that.
If Living Tribunal who is all knowing, says that Beyonder was the most powerful force at that time, it must have been true.
He said that TOAA (as a being) was the most powerful (Infinity Gauntlet series) being in the Multi-verse after the retcon, I'm not implying anything but, as I see it now.
TOAA = an abstract avatar of a wrtier
Classic Beyonder = a concrete avatar of a writer
In other words: TOAA is now, what Beyonder was then.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Beyonder had limmits because he put limmitations on himself.
When we see Living Tribunal we don't think "Limmits!" we think "Omnipotence, Eternity, Infinity, Infinite!"
Even that he must have (or had) limmits.If Living Tribunal who is all knowing, says that Beyonder was the most powerful force at that time, it must have been true.
He said that TOAA (as a being) was the most powerful (Infinity Gauntlet series) being in the Multi-verse after the retcon, I'm not implying anything but, as I see it now.
TOAA = an abstract avatar of a wrtier
Classic Beyonder = a concrete avatar of a writerIn other words: TOAA is now, what Beyonder was then.
The Beyonder hadn't possed any limits on himself during the first Secret Wars when Doom stole his power.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Wrong. he stole the Beyonders power during the first Secret Wars. And that was BEFORE he limited himself.
