Most Tragic Character

Originally posted by jumpmann
What about bad things have happened regular to Spider-Man since his creation and its hindered the idea of him being a tragic character?

Nothing ever goes right in his life...it's old and dry now. The sheer volume of tragic events is only a sign of poor writing. Its always one thing after another and I'm tired of seeing it.

Every character has it rough. The bad guys keep having their plans that they put alot of hard work and planning into fouled up by people in brightly colored spandex... granted the villains also wear the brightly colored spandex...

And the good guys are always haveing to save the day from the villians.

So could you tell me how a comic is supposed to exist without hardship, conflict and tragedy?

Originally posted by Creshosk
So what.. You'd prefer the Disney version of Spiderman.. or comics for that matter?

Every character has it rough. The bad guys keep having their plans that they put alot of hard work and planning into fouled up by people in brightly colored spandex... granted the villains also wear the brightly colored spandex...

And the good guys are always haveing to save the day from the villians.

So could you tell me how a comic is supposed to exist without hardship, conflict and tragedy?

Well said.

I have no problem with "hardship, conflict and tragedy", as you put it. The problem I have with Spiderman is tragedy has become an overused gimmick for him. Nothing ever goes right for him. Even writers retcon past events like Goblin+Stacy just to add another bad thing to his list.

I would rather have a Disney Spiderman...he's fricken boring as hell now. You know at the Civil War something monumentally bad will happen to him...again and he'll be just as whiney and depressed like he has been since the beginning. His conflict right now has probably led to one of the most interesting arcs in recent ASM history. Its partly why Ultimate Spiderman was amazingly brilliant for like the first 55 issues. It was so fresh and right for Spider-Man.

Look at Jason Todd for the how to in tragic events defining a character. Batman had two major events that shaped him, and that's really all he needs to be a great tragic character. It's enough you know.

Originally posted by jumpmann
I have no problem with "hardship, conflict and tragedy", as you put it. The problem I have with Spiderman is tragedy has become an overused gimmick for him. Nothing ever goes right for him. Even writers retcon past events like Goblin+Stacy just to add another bad thing to his list.

Originally posted by jumpmann
I would rather have a Disney Spiderman...he's fricken boring as hell now. You know at the Civil War something monumentally bad will happen to him...

Originally posted by jumpmann
again and he'll be just as whiney and depressed like he has been since the beginning.

Originally posted by jumpmann
His conflict right now has probably led to one of the most interesting arcs in recent ASM history. Its partly why Ultimate Spiderman was amazingly brilliant for like the first 55 issues. It was so fresh and right for Spider-Man.

Look at Jason Todd for the how to in tragic events defining a character. Batman had two major events that shaped him, and that's really all he needs to be a great tragic character. It's enough you know.

I like Spiderman, I never said I didn't, I just don't like the writers who constantly throw another tragic event into his life for the hell of it. That's not realistic, like I said, its his gimmick.

And I don't recall saying I disliked the "realism". Please get back to me when you can debate without putting words into my mouth.

What about beast.

Born with oversized hands and feat, turned himself into a beast couldn't return to his human form.
Later he was kidnapped by a mad man who did all kinds of test on him.
He than turned to his human form again, but still had blue hair.
Than he became dumber but stonger wenn ever he used his strenght.
Than he turned back in to the blue monster, than a dark version of him took over his live and killed almost all of his childhood friends.
Than he mutated even more.

I mean that's also kind of sad.

Emotional and physical.

Cyclops: His parents seemingly died in a plane crash, and he had to jump from the plane with his brother and one parachute burning, surviving but gaining a brain injury which would make it impossible for him to look someone in the eye again. After spend a year in a coma, is separated from his little brother and pretty much raised by one of the greatest villains on the planet, whom was manipulating and using him for his own purposes. Runs away from the orphanage, and is somehow taken by a criminal who beats the s*it out of him and just uses for his own purposes too.
The love of his life dies and returns possessed by some cosmic god-like entity, becomes a mass murderer and then kills herself right in front of him. Before dying, she reveals that his father was alive and never came back to search for him.
Then, when Scott already has a son and is married to a woman which he even cares about, but only married because she resembles this women he loved (although he did not realized that at the time), his love comes back and he finds out she never was possessed, became a mass murderer, etc, and he, a man who always thought very carefully about his decision, leaves everything without thinking twice, and when tries to reach his wife and son back, discover they were kidnapped or murdered. When he finally finds out their whereabouts, his wife, whom actually is a clone of his loved one designed to have a son with him, turned insane, made a pact with devils, and tries to conquer the world and kill his son, and his brother is supporting her by her side. In the end, his wife died, but both her and the copy of his love made by the god-like entity are absorbed by his loved one, and they often switch personalities, and Cyclops discovers all the manipulations made by the villain, and kills him... but Sinister actually didn't die, and will always be there to haunt him for the rest of his life.
Later, his son is kidnapped by a psychopath, infected with a deadly technovirus, and has to be sent to the future. And when he thought he killed this bastard, he was wrong, and ended up being merged with him, dividing the same body and mind for more than 6 months, and Apocalypse destroying everything he thought about himself, driving him nearly insane, making it impossible for Scott to be the same person again. They are separated, but, of course, this villain eventually returns.
When he's already in the verge of a nervous breakdown after all this, his wife is turning into the same cosmic god-like entity who killed 5 billion people, and then dies again. Only to return a short time later and he has to fight her and kill her again, and knowing that it's not permanent, that she will rise again, and possibly try to destroy the universe another time.
And, after all this, Xavier, his mentor, whom he loves as a father and loves him has a son, not only kept a sentient life-form as a slave, risking the life of it's students, but mind raped him to forget everything about a big failure of him (Xavier) and that he had another brother, whom came back evil and nearly (?) insane.
And to make it better, he has to stand all X-men looking at him unsatisfied because he had an affair and is living with a woman they hate, even though your main concern ever since you're 15 years old is to protect and help them and fight alongside they all to protect a world full of people which fears and hates their species.
And to make it even better, this women, although she loves Scott a lot, even more than he loves her, mind-rapes him and lives him in a nearly vegetative state in a plan to defeat the X-men.
The last part maybe not happening at all, but still, a pretty easy life, isn't it?

Prof.X
🤣

Martian Manhunter- Watched entire race die. "Stranded" on earth amongst people who only accept him if he changes form. No one can sympathize with him and no one can began to understand his past.

Originally posted by jumpmann
I like Spiderman, I never said I didn't, I just don't like the writers who constantly throw another tragic event into his life for the hell of it. That's not realistic, like I said, its his gimmick.

And I don't recall saying I disliked the "realism". Please get back to me when you can debate without putting words into my mouth.

You don't like that? You don't like realistic Not words put into your mouth. But pointing out what you are saying.

Please get back to me when you can coherently use logic to acheive valid conclusions.

You're actually going to compare your life to Spiderman? I don't buy it. It may not be perfect, but try competing against 40 consistent years of ridiculously awful things happening to you.

And again, I never said I don't like realism. I'm sorry that you cannot comprehend that writers specifically and constantly trying to make unnormal bad things happen to Parker is not realistic and cheap writing. For good writing of Spiderman, see USM first 60 issues or so. Again, they retcon awful things like Gwen Stacy into even more awful occurances like her having babies with the Green Goblin...his arch rival...Stop blatently ignoring this point. Its not realism...its bad writing. There's a fine difference.

Originally posted by jumpmann
You're actually going to compare your life to Spiderman? I don't buy it. It may not be perfect, but try competing against 40 consistent years of ridiculously awful things happening to you.

Originally posted by jumpmann
And again, I never said I don't like realism. I'm sorry that you cannot comprehend that writers specifically and constantly trying to make unnormal bad things happen to Parker is not realistic and cheap writing.

I envy you, your life must have been a bed of roses if you've never had a constant hardship. Hell, I've had constant tragedy and I'm not even that bad off.

So if you don't like Spider-man(the comics) then don't read them. But bitching about them isn't going to help you any.

Originally posted by jumpmann
For good writing of Spiderman, see USM first 60 issues or so. Again, they retcon awful things like Gwen Stacy into even more awful occurances like her having babies with the Green Goblin...his arch rival...Stop blatently ignoring this point. Its not realism...its bad writing. There's a fine difference.

I'm sorry if you're not bright enough to see that. Not get back to me when you can think logically, and not just your own personal tastes.

Resorting to childish insults are we? Ran out of points before you started so it figures. 😛

As I said, I have'nt pissed off any insane super villians. Sspiderman did... Hence he has/had a supervillian(s) trying to mess up his life.

I'm sorry that you lack the cognitive functions capable of logically deducing that what's going on in his life is realistic in comparison.

I envy you, your life must have been a bed of roses if you've never had a constant hardship. Hell, I've had constant tragedy and I'm not even that bad off.

So if you don't like Spider-man(the comics) then don't read them. But bitching about them isn't going to help you any.

I'm sorry if you're not bright enough to see that.

Not get back to me when you can think logically, and not just your own personal tastes.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Resorting to childish insults are we? Ran out of points before you started so it figures. 😛

Originally posted by jumpmann
Yeah, like I said, you cannot compare your lives. I'm sure your problems are just as insignificant as anyone's as you seem fine to judge the intelligence of internet message board posters. Why don't you get some real problems and get back to me when you do.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Are you just going to toss out random insults or are you ever going to back up what you say? Ridiculous.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Most emoish statement I've seen on this board. I think my life's been pretty normal. I've had problems but I didn't have my parents die at a young age, didn't accidently cause the death of my uncle, didn't have to bear witness to countless bizarre deaths who have seemingly reversed themselves, the person I hated the most didn't have my dead girlfriends babies, clones...But if your life has been this bad in comparasion then I'd really recommend suicide. The universe clearly hates you and wants you to suffer. Ease some of the pain and some of us the pain of your blank statements with nothing to back them up! Thanks!

Anyway if you think saying that I've had a hard life, but it could be worse is emo... yeah, you must be a rich preppy kid.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Words in my mouth again.

Originally posted by jumpmann
I've yet to divulge whether I like them or not.

Originally posted by jumpmann
I loved Superman but the time travel bit? Cmon! Point-its bad writing, not realistic.

Your point is lost.

Originally posted by jumpmann
But please, try saying Spider-Man is realistic some more. Comedic bliss will ensue.

Originally posted by jumpmann
I'm sorry you're not bright enough to back up anything you say with decent points.

Originally posted by jumpmann
It is fun to watch though!

Originally posted by jumpmann
/laugh

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Spawn yet...

That would explain why you started the insults first now wouldn't it?

You first. smile

Encoruraging suicide.. isn't that against the TOS? or is that another board?

Anyway if you think saying that I've had a hard life, but it could be worse is emo... yeah, you must be a rich preppy kid.

You wish they were. Sadly, they're not. You've bitched quite a bit about how boring, and lame the Spiderman stories are...

You don't like them. You've already said this by complaining about the stories being bad.

Spiderman=/= Superman

Your point is lost.

Try reading properly next time. Constant hardship in life is realistic. Some have it harder than others.

Oh, and these are examples btw. Try using them!

And the rest is typical flamer garbage so yeah won't bother. Pretty much done here since you are apparently have no idea what the word realism means. Have fun writing the exact same thing over again, I know I'll fun read it again.

Originally posted by jumpmann
It would...but I didn't so it doesn't lol.

Originally posted by jumpmann
So you admit that you've proven nothing? thx, and refer to you blinding ignoring my points as me backing myself up.

You want me to back the claim that my life is hard? You want me to back up the claim that I haven't pissed off a supervillian?

Why don't you try using logistic challenges properly? I suppose you don't even understand what YOU are saying there is no way for you to understand what I am saying and there is no way you could understand the complex plots that go on in spiderman. No wonder you think its stupid you have some sort of learning disability.

Originally posted by jumpmann
If your life sucks as bad as you make it out to be then I think it qualifies as healthy advice.

Originally posted by jumpmann
I don't think I said any of this,

"Most emoish statement I've seen on this board. "

Clearly you called me emo.

Originally posted by jumpmann
again jumping to conclusions but in any event, no I am not a rich preppy kid and I'm not going to waste time proving it lol.quote] Because you can't, because you are. Very nice.

[QUOTE=7160510]Originally posted by jumpmann
So dumb. Words in my mouth again. I've mentioned one part of Spiderman lore. Quite fond of the dialogue and villains of the series that it overweighs the cheap tragedy gimmick.

"it's old and dry now. The sheer volume of tragic events is only a sign of poor writing. Its always one thing after another and I'm tired of seeing it."
"The problem I have with Spiderman is tragedy has become an overused gimmick for him."
"I would rather have a Disney Spiderman...he's fricken boring as hell now."
"and he'll be just as whiney and depressed like he has been since the beginning."

Originally posted by jumpmann
See above and accept it. quote] Oh I've accepted that you're so dumb. And I also recognize backpeddling. you'll hastily try and back out of what you said without directly taking it back to make it look like you didn't say it in the first place. To save face.

[QUOTE=7160510]Originally posted by jumpmann
Bad writing is bad writing, which was clearly my point.

Originally posted by jumpmann
But none have the universe throwing one bad event after another at them.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Another difference is Parker has the intelligence and resources to make his better than the average person who has monumentally bad things happen to him like he has.quote] Intelligence yes, resources?

Sorry, the kid ain't rich.

[QUOTE=7160510]Originally posted by jumpmann
See USM for a realistic version of Spiderman. Superheroish bad things happen to him, the universe is definitely not out to get him like in the 616 version. Old Bendis wins Spiderman.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Oh, and these are examples btw. Try using them!

"it's old and dry now. The sheer volume of tragic events is only a sign of poor writing. Its always one thing after another and I'm tired of seeing it."
"The problem I have with Spiderman is tragedy has become an overused gimmick for him."
"I would rather have a Disney Spiderman...he's fricken boring as hell now."
"and he'll be just as whiney and depressed like he has been since the beginning."
"Bad writing is bad writing"

Originally posted by jumpmann
And the rest is typical flamer garbage so yeah won't bother.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Pretty much done here since you are apparently have no idea what the word realism means.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Have fun writing the exact same thing over again, I know I'll fun read it again.

Sadly you missed the quoted line entirely. Or maybe you just have never seen what the line comes from.

Ask yourself: "Why did I use the word 'fuzzball'"?

Bah, screw Spider-Man, screw Daredevil, they know nothing of losses compared to Namor.

Loses his friends, Captain America and Bucky (Brought back, though).
Loses another of his friends, Captain America II.
Loses his grandfather and mother on the same time in an earthquake.
Loses his memory for at least 10 years.
His wife is killed by Llyra, she suffocates slowly.
His cousin is killed, by poisoning. He couldn't be on her deathbed because he had lost his memory.
His father is killed half a hour after he finds him again.
Betty Dean, his first love, dies.
He is forced to kill his second wife, and she dies in his arms.
Dies himself...
...twice, both times being quite painful.
Is forced to kill the clone of his wife.
Meets Marrina's soul in Black Knight's sword, forced to leave her.
His mother is back alive, she dies by saving Namor's life.
His son with Marrina dies few minutes after he finds him.
Many of his followers die when Atlantis rises from the water.
Saves an Atlantean child, last of his subjects to still be alive on the risen Atlantis, only for her to die in his arms.
Loses one of his closest friends, Human Torch I.
Loses his friend, Bruce Banner/Hulk, when the people he thought were his friends, shoot him in space.
Perhaps the most dearest person in his life, Namorita, dies violently.

Probably forgot something, but those are the major things.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Laugh it up fuzzball.

...Fuzzball? 😕

Ever since it became popular, almost every hero has played the tragic hero roll for most of their careers.